Scarlet & Brown Stories

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Dennis:   Welcome back to another episode of Scarlet & Brown Stories, the podcast where we record and share the news and oral history of St. Lawrence University and the wider Laurentian community. I'm your host, Denny Morreale, St. Lawrence class of 2007, alongside my co-host, Megan Fry Dozier. Megan, how are you doing today?

Megan:   I'm doing great, Denny. How are you?

Dennis:   Very good. I'm delighted today about the guest that we have, someone that I think several of us have had on our short lists for a while, so it's exciting to finally get him on here. Our guest today is an alum from the class of 2018. I'm just going to go through some of the stats here. An English and government double major, HEOP student, track and field athlete, ATO member, community assistant, senior fellow for admissions, Multicultural Visitation Program assistant, communications intern, St. Lawrence University Fellowship, and, as an alum, a LINC mentor, and more recently the co-chair of the Class of 2018 Reunion Committee and a, if I may say so myself, rising star of the Young Alumni League. Jabari Bown, welcome to the podcast.

Jabari:   Thank you. Thank you for having me. I didn't realize I did all of that. I am still doing all that. Sounds like a lot.

Dennis:   It does sound like a lot it. And you were no slouch, that's for sure. Has this always been your style, going back to high school and that kind of thing? Were you jumping in as being a leader in various organizations and whatnot?

Jabari:   Yeah, so I think it really started in high school, like my junior, senior year. So I don't know if a lot of folks know. I actually lived in Jamaica for about four or five years.

Dennis:   I didn't know that.

Jabari:   Yeah, I moved back to...

Dennis:   You mean Jamaica, not Jamaica, New York.

Jabari:   Yeah, not Jamaica, Queens. Montego Bay, Jamaica. And so I moved back to the States and actually moved to Brooklyn, New York in 2012. And the school I went to was actually started by a St. Lawrence alum. So shout out to Matt Brown.

Dennis:   No kidding. Nice. All right.

Jabari:   And Becky Van de Water. Absolutely love her. She's my third grandma. And so there, the biggest thing was students doing stuff outside of the classroom. And so I just got really involved. I started doing bunch of volunteering stuff. Obviously, sports was in there, but if any opportunity was shown, and I thought it would be fun or interesting or just doable, I would try my hand at it. So I did New York Cares, which was really cool. In the two years that I was there, we did a couple hundred hours. I remember a big initiative that I was a part of was a gay-straight alliance. It was a small cohort of people.

Dennis:   Very nice.

Jabari:   Yeah, and it was one of those first moments of advocacy that I remember being a part of. A very secluded group, and it was more about having dialogues and seeing how our group can reach the general populace in the school. But yeah, anything that I just felt was cool or was asked to do, I was like, "Yeah, let's try it. Worst case scenario, I fail."

Dennis:   Love that. So let's go back to the night before you matriculated. So you got your bags packed, going to bed, planning to head up that long trail, up to St. Lawrence University for your first day of orientation. Who were you then? What were you most excited about, and what were you most nervous about?

Jabari:   I'd say I was much more into sneakers than I am now. I just remember. So I was fortunate enough for my sister and brother-in-law to drive me to campus with my nephew, his son, and one or two of our childhood friends. So it was a loaded van, and most of it was filled with sneakers.

Dennis:   No kidding.

Jabari:   So you can imagine how many pairs of sneakers I had. So it was a lot of packing the night before. But I mean, as you mentioned, I'm a HEOP student or was a HEOP student, so I'd been on campus for-

Dennis:   That's right.

Jabari:   ...what felt like most of my summer. And so I got back to Brooklyn, I want to say for about a week or two, and then was, essentially, back to St. Lawrence. So I wasn't super nervous to be back on campus just because I kind of knew the lay of the land. I got a sense of what the rigor of the classes would feel like.

Dennis:   That orientation they do is pretty rigorous. I think you chose the right word. My understanding is have you guys working hard during that time.

Jabari:   Oh, yeah. There is such a steep learning curve because, I mean, public schools, they vary in terms of what you learn. I just remember reading Hobbes and Thoreau. I was like hard...

Dennis:   Yeah.

Jabari:   And Bill Short's always like, "There's a reason for it." I was like, we'll see! So yeah, it was a rough summer, but learned a lot. It really helped me and built that confidence to know that, at the very least, I can get by at St. Lawrence. But I knew if I applied myself, I could do well. So yeah, I wasn't really nervous. I don't think there was anything I was nervous about, but I was excited to meet a lot of people. I know you both, and I think out of the conversations we have, you guys know I'm a Chatty Patty, and I tend to ramble. I really just meeting people. And so that was one of the biggest things. I was just excited to meet new people on campus.

Dennis:   I can attest to this, from a kind of different perspective. So, my primary role, I am the Young Alumni person. So I coordinate the Young Alumni League, and I travel and visit with people on the road that are in the 10 youngest classes and try to recruit people for the Young Alumni League and whatnot. And so when I'm talking to people in the anywhere range that you went to school with, and we're asking who's involved already, everyone knows who you are. It's just you're one of those hubs that has so many spokes going in all directions. It's remarkable.

Jabari:   Yeah. I actually don't know because my freshman year, I was pretty much hiding in a dorm room. Yeah, I was in Priest, and I felt like I really just went to class, ran track, hung out with my same three or four friends, maybe five, and that was it. I don't feel like I did anything. I think it was sophomore year I started living in the CBL suites.

Dennis:   For people not familiar, could you speak to what the CBL suites, what that stands for?

Jabari:   Stands for community-based learning. So shout out to Brenda and Alie. I know Alie's not there anymore. I think she's in Vermont, but and even Erin. They were not huge in pushing us to do it, but just letting us know about the opportunity, knowing what it is.

Dennis:   Erin Colvin and Alie Sarhanis. Am I remembering right?

Jabari:   Yes.

Dennis:   Yeah.

Jabari:   Yes. I ended up putting together a group with myself, my friend Moe, my friend Bubacar, and our friend John. And we lived in there, and we actually worked with NYSARC Fitness. I will say, if you ask me to say the meaning of NYSARC, I probably couldn't right now.

Dennis:   Yeah, that's okay.

Jabari:   That's a long one. But it was a lot of fun. And we essentially were able to live in a suite, the four of us, while also doing community based learning. And we actually were able to put together a project for the Impact conference that was hosted in Massachusetts at the time, which was my first trip to Massachusetts. And we went to UMass Amherst with, I forget everyone's there, but Ashley Downing was the one in charge.

Dennis:   Oh, nice. Very nice.

Jabari:   So yeah, that was it. It was a really fun time. But I think living in that suite, a lot of people tend to hang out in the suites.

Dennis:   Yeah, I never lived in the suites, but I certainly spent, it was a drop by on the circuit of places to stop on a Friday or Saturday. The suites were often in the mix.

Jabari:   Exactly. And so I think that introduced me to a lot of people. And then you also are just doing a little bit more, bit more confident on campus. I knew people from classes, my FYP, and then you just start to get introduced to people. And I think the one thing that I always did is if I met you once, even if I couldn't remember your name, I would still be like, "Oh, hey, what's up?" So and so. I definitely got some weird looks, but people usually would joke around, that's definitely not my name. And so just having that conversation. And I think I was always just willing to let people know that I have met you before, so don't be weird or act strange.

Dennis:   Yeah.

Jabari:   Break that ice.

Dennis:   Love that.

Megan:   I was going to say, as an introvert, I appreciate that because that's how we make friends is we find an extrovert and we get them to adopt us. And then that's how get introduce to the rest of the social circle.

Dennis:   Right.

Megan:   So I guarantee that you've helped a lot of people out there.

Jabari:   Maybe.

Megan:   So following that thread through your college experience, what has stuck with you about St. Lawrence? When you think about your experience, what lesson is still applying to your life today? What was that defining class, club, project, team experience for you?

Jabari:   Man, I'm trying to think. There are a couple that come to mind, but I think they all have the same theme. I think the St. Lawrence taught me how to prioritize.

Megan:   Ooh, that's a good one.

Jabari:   I think my freshman year I had a group project for, I think the class was violence, non-violence with Christopher Buck. And I was in a two person project and I just wasn't carrying my share of the load. And I remember having a talk with Professor Buck and I just, I'll never forget, he said. "You are a student athlete, emphasis on the student first." I think that was one of the first times where I realized if you have major competing interests, you really have to prioritize them. And you can't just juggle them all and like, "Oh, it'll work itself out." Because I think in high school you can kind of do that, but as you get older, you really have to make a choice and make a decision. And I mean it fluctuated, but I would think now I'm way better at it than I was then.

Because I remember in London, when I studied abroad, something similar happened and I just needed a slight reality check as well. I think maybe definitely by my senior year as things are starting to get relaxed and you're kind of like, I kind of want to be done with schoolwork. Unfortunately, I kind of had that creep in a bit. And so I needed another pulling back. But I'd say that would probably be the biggest thing I learned, just understanding how to prioritize things. Because even if you're drowning, if you prioritize well, you can dig yourself out of that hole. And you usually have the help around you to get it done. So just have a plan to figure it out.

So I think that's probably the biggest lesson I've learned from St. Lawrence because now that I'm older and I'm an adult in the "real world," you have a bunch of things that you're trying to manage and juggle, whether it's friendships, work, hobbies, a lot of things compete with one another. And so you kind of have to manage it. It's one of those things where everyone's like, "We're not just down the hall in our dorm anymore." If you want to actually see, you got to make the effort.

Megan:   Yes, that is the absolute truth.

Dennis:   Yeah.

Megan:   It does not get easier.

Jabari:   No, it's not.

Dennis:   So as an English major, was there any course material that changed your outlook in a way that you didn't expect or had an outsized impact? Sometimes I can think of, I wasn't an English major, but certain books that still shaped my outlook years later that I read in school at one point or another.

Jabari:   Yeah. And Paul Grant's probably going to be mad at me for this, because I can't quite remember the author, but it was a book about writing. I think it was Joyce Carol Oates, I think so. I can't remember.

She was speaking on the very specific things that good writing usually has. And outside of writing, I think storytelling is just something that I gravitated to towards. And I think in college, short story writing was my way of doing that. As I've moved on from that. And I don't have to, or I don't necessarily feel the need to write, I still oral storytelling or visual telling, I go to the movies at least two or three times a month, see Open in Boston. And so I think, I can't quite remember, but it was a book that we were reading from an author that was just going over how to appropriately write a story.

Dennis:   Yeah, that's really interesting. Those kind of books that I've read, a few I can think of that it's sneaky, it's like a Trojan horse that it's on its face. It's simply instructional, nonfiction, kind of educational material that smuggles in these deep insights about the universe. The one that comes to mind for me, there's a book by a guy named Scott McLeod who wrote, you talked about visual storytelling. The book was understanding comics, and you think it was just that. And then you start reading it and you quickly realize, I think I learned more about art. And I finally understood abstract art for the first time reading that book. All of these things I did not see coming about the way time works in a two dimensional image and things like that. So we'll have to figure out who that is. I'd love to look into that more.

Megan:   Would it be The Faith of a Writer ? That's what I'm seeing for Joyce Carol Oates.

Jabari:   I can't remember.

Megan:   It'll come to you. 4:   00 AM give us an email.

Jabari:   Also, I'm a bit of a hoarder. My girlfriend probably hates it. I think I have almost every book that I bought from St. Lawrence except for the ones from freshman year. I still have all.

Dennis:   No kidding.

Jabari:   Yeah.

Megan:   I love that.

Jabari:   I have those. I have the calendars and I have the magazines and I have them sorted by season.

Dennis:   Oh, that's wonderful. I did that for a couple years. I had kept all my books and I thought it was going to be this great book collection. And then I found myself moving a lot and I had this sort of just purge phase. And now that I'm settled and actually have this space and don't move around nearly as often, I wish I had held onto to them. But you sort of live and learn.

Megan:   So I want to stick to this train of thought. What is on your to be read pile right now?

Jabari:   To be read pile? Honestly I haven't been, I was never an avid reader, but I knew in order to be a good writer or even just storyteller you had to read, I'd probably say there, there's a autobiography, I'm forgetting his name now, but he was on SNL and he's in a couple other movies. But he had a really good story. And that was an autobiography that I wanted to read because the Seth Rogen autobiography was a really good one.

Dennis:   Oh, interesting.

Jabari:   And I'm not usually a autobiography guy. I usually, I want to say fiction and probably short fiction at that, or mystery.

Dennis:   Oh, interesting.

Jabari:   Dean Koontz, oddly enough, is probably my favorite writer, which is a very random thing to say.

Dennis:   I was going to say, if you had asked me to guess who would be in your top author's list, I don't know that I would've come up with that one. That's a very fun character trait, hidden character trait for you.

Jabari:   Well, the thing was, so when I graduated, I had a lot of time in the summer because I hadn't landed a job yet. And I went to Vermont to spend the weekend with my friend Rachel Starr, while I was doing my SLU Fellowship In 2016. No. She was doing her SLU Fellowship in 2017, and I was a HEOP mentor on campus at the same time.

Dennis:   Oh, nice.

Jabari:   That's how we met and developed our friendship. So post-grad, I'd never been to Vermont. She was living there for the summer and I was like, "Oh, I'd love to visit." And we went to a bookstore in downtown and I just picked up a book by Dean Koontz, I think it was Velocity.

Dennis:   Okay.

Jabari:   And I just remember reading that and then being like, "I got to read more." And then I read a couple more and I was just like, "Maybe this is my niche."

Dennis:   That's great. So were you couch surfing that summer?

Jabari:   No. So I was in Brooklyn. I was back home. My folks didn't kick me out. But I definitely took the chance to visit people and see things.

Dennis:   Yeah.

Jabari:   I think one of the best pieces of advice I heard or got was late our senior year for my friend Robert Ryan. He said that a family friend that was much older and successful, told him the one regret he kind of had was not enjoying the summer or year post grad because I most freedom.

Megan:   Yeah.

Dennis:   Yeah, it's true.

Jabari:   So what I... Oh, sorry.

Dennis:   Oh, no. I was just going to say, I remember that summer so fondly now, I felt so much discontent and I felt very lost in a way that, in a kind of profound way that I don't know that I've ever felt that lost before. But in retrospect, I think about it and it's such a riveting time that were just so free. And it was a lot of that for me, it was crashing on people's couches for four days at a time and bouncing around the northeast in my little hatchback.

Jabari:   I did a couple trips that summer. I was looking for a job, but if something came up I wasn't, and I could do it, I was saying yes, which I think is a theme in my life. I should probably learn to say no more often.

Dennis:   I don't know. Yeah, I feel like that's your charm and from what I've seen, have found your way into interesting connections and interesting opportunities.

Jabari:   I mean, most times a yes is more exciting than to a no, it's really easy to stay at home, get on the couch, watch a lot of movies, which I very much love to do. But for instance, I rode bike now mostly because my friend Robert Ryan, he's an avid biker and I'd say most of our friend group now is.

Dennis:   That's right. Because you guys have a nice little crew going there. In Boston, if I remember correctly.

Jabari:   Yeah. A lot of folks in Boston, specifically Beacon Hill. So me and my girlfriend who both class of 2018 live in Beacon Hill, my friend Mo and Willie Jay lived together, they're in Beacon Hill. Robert Ryan lives in Beacon Hill, Glenice Gallagher, Haley Wilson, Gregor Petakovic, big SLU population because we see a lot of stickers on cars.

Dennis:   Yeah.

Megan:   I will say shameless plug, we at the time of recordings, SLU Connect Boston is next week. So we're excited.

Dennis:   That's right.

Megan:   I think we have over 70 volunteers next week coming out to talk to current students about different careers and stuff. So Boston is definitely one of our hubs through the generations of Laurentians.

Dennis:   So hearing you talk about that makes me want to give a little bit of unsolicited advice. I can sort of remember that phase of my life. I don't know if... You can tell me if this is true for you, but yeah, that period, especially your fifth reunion, which is coming right up, is in some ways meaningful distinction because the period between when you graduate in the fifth, for me, I didn't recognize it as this another kind of golden years period of life. I knew in college everyone seemed to know when you were a student that this was really precious and it needs to be savored.

Jabari:   Yeah.

Dennis:   I didn't realize to the same extent at the time how that five years after, when you're living in these really kind of bohemian little communities with many of your classmates still in close contact and your roommates together in apartments, that that's also a golden period that also doesn't last forever. So anytime I talk to people who are in the thick of it, I always just want to say, really treasure this time.

Jabari:   No, I mean, even to speak to that a little bit, I think offline we were talking about, I went to watch the Celtics game with my old townhouse mates. I was walking back to Beacon Hill with Mo and we tried to live together post grad but just couldn't get it together. But just the feeling of knowing that we missed that moment to probably room together in a city when we're like we early to mid twenties and can really just enjoy life without many responsibilities or large responsibilities. It's like, "Geez, we're never going to get that chance again possibly."

Dennis:   Yeah, you've still got some good years left of that, I would say.

Jabari:   Oh, for sure.

Dennis:   Yeah.

Jabari:   But I mean, I don't know how much longer I'll be in Boston. I don't know how much longer he'll be in Boston. I'm in a long-term relationship. He's single as a Pringle.

Dennis:   Yeah.

Jabari:   So I don't know. I don't necessarily know.

Dennis:   But on that note though, you do have the reunion coming up and you along with Maddy Rice have been the co-chairs for your class of 2018, which is in a cluster with classes of 2017 and classes of 2019. You've been involved in a wide range of different activities as an alum. What made you want support St. Lawrence as an alum after graduating?

Jabari:   I think it's twofold. I think the opportunity to go to St. Lawrence and get an education, make the connections I did and learn what I did was super beneficial in getting me to where I am now. So I think just being grateful for the opportunity and what it's provided me is one part. But I think the second half is just out of pure love for St. Lawrence. I don't know how many people spent as much time in Canton, New York as I did when they were at St. Lawrence because I was there obviously for every semester except for when I went abroad in the fall of 2016. But I was there for about four to five summers as well. So I spent a lot of time up there. I met a lot of great people, whether it was students, faculty, staff, people around the community. I'm a city boy in terms of wanting to live in New York or Boston, but it's something about being in Canton or even on campus that just was very calming or really soothing and I just fell in love with everything.

And I was like, "If I can give back in any way, I definitely will." I think it was just the idea of paying it forward and letting someone else get that feeling. Because when I did my visits, I was kind of weirded out with how much people love St. Lawrence. They could have just been the very specific people that I spoke to. I can't talk to if admissions was nudging or not, but they were all so into St. Lawrence. And I've come to realize that I'm just one of those people. I can't explain it. It's like, "Why do I love New York City so much? I don't know." It's just a feeling. I'll go back any chance like that.

Megan:   Absolutely.

Jabari:   I give back.

Megan:   So on that note of paying it forward, what advice would you give a high school senior who's just committed to SLU and maybe what advice do you think that they should ignore?

Jabari:   Advice. What I would ignore is I would ignore the bad accounts of St. Lawrence that some folks might mention. I know that was a big contention between Mo and I with some of the older folk that we spoke to when we first got there about certain aspects of being on campus. And I think the biggest thing was just go and live your own experience, right? Because everyone, I know people that absolutely love St. Lawrence and I know some people that were like, it was all right. And I think depending on who you talk to and how true they make it seem, they can skew your idea of it going in. And so I would just say, just go in there and just have fun. I mean, classes are going to be hard some are going to be easy, but it's the things that you do outside of the classroom that really shape your experience.

And so, if you already go in with the mindset that I might not want to do this, I might not want to do that, or I can't make time for that, I think you'll have a very limited experience. I think if you just try a couple things or even say yes to some things that you might not necessarily have envisioned yourself doing, you'll find that you're having a great time. Some of the things I did at on campus, I didn't think I would do. I never thought I'd join a fraternity, but having conversations with people that I didn't think would join a fraternity made me want to rush. And just some of the things that they were talking about, I was like, "This seems like a lot of fun. It seems like people are doing things and everyone's pretty accepting. I was like, yeah, why not?'" So yeah, don't listen to the bad, just go up there on your own accord and live your own experience when you'll get the truest form of St. Lawrence, in my opinion.

Dennis:   No, I love that. So as we've alluded to a few times here, you do have a fifth reunion coming up. What are you most looking forward to about your fifth reunion?

Jabari:   Seeing Becky Van de Water? No. I think it's really just seeing everyone. If the meetings that I have in Boston are any indication towards to expect on campus, it'll be a lot of, "What are you up to? And do you remember when?" And I think those are the conversations that, I mean, it's not that I peaked in college, but you definitely get to enjoy on those moments. Some of my years at St. Lawrence were some of the best years of my life so far. Granted I'm only 27, so it's not many. But to be able to talk on those shared experience with folks and be in the place to where we had that is I think one of those few feelings or moments that can't really be compared to others.

And so I think just linking up with people on campus was probably going to be my most favorite thing. Outside of that, in all seriousness, seeing a few people that really made my St. Lawrence experience what it was. So Bill Short, Aaron Coleman, hopefully I can get her out to seeing Ashley Downing, Becky Van de Water. I know I'm probably leaving a bunch of names off there. But seeing those folks. And then I'd say lastly, getting a pizza roll from Serges.

Dennis:   Of course.

Jabari:   Or about special.

Dennis:   Yeah.

Jabari:   One of those two

Dennis:   That's mandatory on reentry.

Jabari:   Yeah, my girlfriend's, she's probably going to hate me. She's a big ranch person, so she's just like, "I can't wait for the ranch." I was like, "That's most oddly specific thing."

Dennis:   No, that's wonderful. I've always say about, I've said it on the show before, but you only get one fifth reunion. The things you alluded to are absolutely big parts of it. But also a big part is the acquaintances, the people who were not in your immediate circle of friends, but that you had every other class, you seemed to be in with that person and you said hi whenever you passed. And how easy it is to pick back up with those people when you're in the buffet line. And the whole thing is just remarkable. And each reunion milestone year is really kind of special in its own way. You can say the same thing is true, but there's nothing like the fifth, you never get another one. And so it's an exciting time.

Jabari:   Yeah, no, I'm excited. And that's kind of my spiel when I talk to folks that are kind of on the fence about it. I'm like, "I'll never get this chance or opportunity again. Who knows where we'll be in the next five years when it's our 10 year. We'll have kids and this, that, and the third. It just makes it a little harder."

Dennis:   I mean it's great in its own way. It's just fundamentally different.

Jabari:   Yeah.

Dennis:   Even if any individual doesn't, many people in the class do. And so that the whole tone takes on a different field that it's itself, its own a really special occasion. There's something incredible about going and seeing, looking around and seeing your peers with their toddlers is its own kind of profound experience. But it's not the fifth. The fifth is its own beast.

Jabari:   Yeah, no, I mean I'm excited to see, I think the list has been growing. I think all of my townhouse is going for sure. So hopefully we can get them to get more folks to RSVP.

Megan:   That's awesome. I know you alluded to a lot of you and your SLU friends are into cycling and road biking. Is the bike coming back to Canton with you?

Jabari:   Yes. So I begrudgingly ask that question on a bike ride on Saturday I want to say, we were doing a 50 mile ride and I was like, "Are we biking when we get to St. Lawrence?" Because St. Lawrence is a fairly hilly place. I don't really do well on hills. I'm short, but I'm stocky or stopped. But I think the plan is to do a bike ride on that Friday morning hopefully. Maybe I can rope in Victoria. We'll see if she has the time.

Dennis:   But I would think not just because of the position, but because it's Victoria, I honestly don't know.

Jabari:   Hopefully I'm not doing anything over 25 or 30 miles. Anything that'll just take too long.

Dennis:   Yeah.

Jabari:   I want to be able enjoy my time up there and not be sore. But the bike's coming up, hopefully there'll be at least four to five of us with bikes up there.

Megan:   That's awesome.

Jabari:   That's great.

Megan:   And could you tell us, we've talked a lot about your volunteer work with St. Lawrence, but could you tell us a little bit about Bike MS, how you got involved, what their mission is and why it's important to you?

Jabari:   Yeah, so I really started doing Bike MS because of my friend, excuse me, Robert Ryan. So his uncle actually has multiple sclerosis and I believe he did the Pan-Mass Challenge in 2019.

But I think he wanted to do something very specific to multiple sclerosis. And so he found Bike MS and just started to put together a small team just to fundraise for it. Convinced me to get a road bike. And I was like, "Okay, yeah, let's do it." And I think through that and having discussions with my family, I actually found out that my oldest sister or oldest sister has MS and she doesn't have bad MS and I'm probably seeing that terribly. So I never really knew and it wasn't something that she ever spoke about. So it started off as something that I was there in solidarity with my friend and it turned out to be something that I actually had skin in the game for. And so what we do is every year, I believe at end of June, we bike about 175 miles, which is usually a little more than that over two days to raise funds for research for multiple sclerosis.

It's a huge event. We raise millions of dollars collectively, not me and my team, every year, but it's a really dope thing. We usually do the Cape Cod route. I say usually because during the pandemic when we did it was all on our own accord. You could do it virtually. But we actually went out there, Robert, mapped out the entire route. And so we did about 180 or so over two days we were supposed to do and we just kept going. But it's something that I hope to continue to do every year that I get the chance to, even if I do leave Boston. But sorry I just started to get a little emotional thinking about it because it's coming up next month, June 24th or fifth. So it's right around the corner for us.

Megan:   That's wonderful.

Dennis:   We'll be cheering you on. So I think that's a great cause and great to see are Laurentian involved with it.

Jabari:   And kudos to Robert as well. He's really grown the team a lot. It started off with just a couple of us as friends doing it and the next year more friends and the next year, friends of friends and family. And we're starting to get a pretty big team. And it's really all because of his efforts. Obviously, I try when I can too, we all do. But I'd say he's the largest driving force in it and we really look to him as a captain because I mean, he is the captain for us and it really comes to. We've done a couple events in Boston with it for fundraising. Couple raffles. Yeah, we're trying a couple different things.

Megan:   That's really great. Is there something that we should have asked you that we haven't yet?

Jabari:   I'm not quite sure. I feel like we touched on a lot of different things and I kept interjecting with random thoughts every now and again.

Dennis:   That's what we're here for.

Jabari:   I was thinking about this question a bit in terms of what do I hope they asked me about? And I feel like we kind of touched on everything, or at least I was able to mention bits and pieces of everything. No, I don't think there's anything I wish you guys had touched on that we didn't.

Megan:   Awesome.

Dennis:   We'll have to have you back on for the 10th, but right before your 10th and we'll see if any of this has changed or where it stands.

Jabari:   I want to say that I really do want to try and win the Young Alumni League this year. I don't know how feasible.

Dennis:   You're in it, man. I mean it's tough because there's like this wall of just extreme titans towards the top, but you, there's nothing in your way. And if not this year, I can already just see it in your drive. And it's been thrilling to see your whole cohort that you're kind of coming on this year with is very strong looking. But there's this a crew of what I think of as very young alums that it's you and Sonya Jensen and Nicole Gotham and a handful of others that are just like, wow, these guys could win a championship this year maybe but we'll see.

Jabari:   Yeah, I definitely got a text from Sonya.

Dennis:   That's great.

Jabari:   Last week or but the week before, she was like, "I'm one point behind." I was like, "Are you watching this day by day?"

But no, I don't think there's something else I wanted to touch on. I kind of just wanted to have a great conversation and talk about St. Lawrence and not feel guilty to, I feel like that's the one thing when a bunch of people get together, in least for me in Boston, if we are at a house party or something and people start talking about St. Lawrence, I kind of almost feel guilty, especially for the people around us that didn't go to St. Lawrence because they're just there and they just watch us geek out about something they have no idea about.

Dennis:   The thing that always struck me was when you'd go to a wedding that was one person was St. Lawrence and the other wasn't, there's always this really funny dynamic where the St. Lawrence side is you just know who they are and the other side is looking at you and being like, "What's wrong with you people?" You're obsessed with each other. And yeah, that I've seen it many times. And I don't know, it's great.

Jabari:   I will say St. Lawrence has some great dancers. I've been to three SLU weddings so far.

Dennis:   That is for sure.

Jabari:   We usually tear up the dance floor. I'll give you that.

Dennis:   Glad to hear that hasn't changed, but that is for sure. Well, thank you so much. It's been a pleasure to have you on. We're very excited to have you on campus this year and I'm excited to see how things go with you and the Young Alumni League moving forward. But it's been our pleasure to have you on the show. And before we close, I did want to say that wish congratulations and also a farewell and announced that this is Megan Fry Dozier's last episode as she... Congratulations Megan. She has found an exciting new opportunity for her, but is a bit of a sad loss for us. Megan has been an integral part of this podcast production team since it was just a flicker of an idea way back in, I don't know, 2020 or something. And it's been a pleasure to work with you, Megan, and we'll certainly miss you.

But thanks for all you've done to help get this whole program up and running and we appreciate everything you've done for the show.

Megan:   Thank you so much. I will say St. Lawrence will always hold a very special place in my heart and I'm so happy that this got was my last conversation on the podcast. Jabari, as I said before, you were my tour guide when I did my job interview. So you're part of the reason that I came to SLU five years ago in spite of that I think it was a 15 degree snowy, awful day that you showed me around campus and you sold it. So, thank you so much and thank you for chatting with us today.

Jabari:   Of course, full circle moment like you said.

Megan:   Absolutely.

Jabari:   Definitely will be missed. I was hoping to see you on campus, but I know you're going to have a great time at your new spot.

Megan:   Thank you.

Dennis:   So till next time, have a great month.

[Music plays over credits]

Beth:   Scarlet and Brown Stories is produced and edited by Amanda Brewer, Beth Dixon, Megan Fry Dozier and Dennis Morreale. Our music was written by Christopher Watts, inspired by Eugene Wright, class of 1949. Subscribe to Scarlet and Brown Stories, on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Consider leaving us a rating review as well. If you have a story to submit to us, you can email us at connect@stlawu.edu.

[Music ends]

[Theme Music Plays and Fades]

Dennis:  Hello and welcome back to Scarlet and Brown Stories podcast. I am your host, Denny Morreale. And with me today is returning co-host Megan Fry Dozier back from maternity leave and we are thrilled to have you back. Welcome back, Megan.

Megan:  Thank you. It's good to be here.

Dennis:  It's great to have you. I am personally very excited today because we have a guest that is, quite frankly, just a dear, dear friend going way back. We've been good friends since, at least, my senior year and kept in touch since then and she has been doing some really mind blowing stuff in terms of starting a business that has... Well, let me take us back a bit. I was at a wedding this summer with another mutual friend who was like, "Have you heard about Ashley Fendler who is now Ashley Saville..." Who is our guest today, "...Class of 2008?" And I was like, no, because I hadn't heard. She was like, "She has started this business and it has gotten huge." And I was blown away. I had no idea she had the skillset. Went on further to see that she has been featured in some really big name publications, Harper's Bazaar, Marie Claire magazine, to name a few. And so, I was blown away and so I couldn't be more excited to have her on the podcast. So welcome to the show, Ashley.

Ashley:  Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited.

Dennis:  So tell me, when did you kind of develop these skills, these passions?

Ashley:  I was thinking about it a lot the past couple days thinking about this and my personality and maybe how it relates to my academic prowess, and I think I was never a strong standardized tester, but I am really strong at open-ended questions and working within constraints like essay testing, academic writing, I was always really strong in, but so when I'm given constraints to work within, I feel like that's where I really excel. And so...

Dennis:  I'm very impressed that you built your website yourself.

Ashley:  It's a lot of work when it comes from... I mean, just being scrappy too. I'm always just of this mindset of... Which is how I started my business too and why I'm doing what I'm doing is, why would I pay somebody to do something I can do myself? It's always exciting to learn and be challenged and I felt, especially in the beginning of my time at St. Lawrence, like my first year, I didn't do so hot because I just didn't really apply myself. And I came from a prep school background, which I think then I was feeling a little burned out getting to St. Lawrence my freshman year, but...

Dennis:  Could I take us back there to... That's right, because you were Emma Willard, if I remember correctly.

Ashley:  Yeah.

Dennis:  Is that right? Who were you the night before you came to St. Lawrence? Who was that person and what was the sort of lie you believed about yourself?

Ashley:  Oh, I just believed that... I mean, I think it came from a place of being young. I mean, I think at 18, we all think that we know everything about everything. And so I think I had that about me, but also mixed in with that was a lack of self-confidence and just feeling like I was going to coast through and didn't really know who I was, and I think it took me a long time and by the time we met that summer before your senior year, I felt like I really started to get to know myself more. So I spent those first few years at St. Lawrence... I made a lot of great friends and I had some great experiences, but I didn't really have an academic focus. I ended up being a psych major and I declared a psych only because I had to declare a major and I was like, "This is kind of interesting. Sure."

So I think the night before St. Lawrence, I was just excited to come. My dorm parent at Emma Willard, I don't remember what year she graduated, sometime in the nineties, was Bridget Everly. She was my dorm parent and she went to St. Lawrence and just had told me a lot of fun stories about it and had such a great experience...

Dennis:  Interesting.

Ashley:  That really left an impression on her and it seemed like it would be a great fit, and she knew me well and I'm glad I made the choice to go. But yeah, I felt like I just didn't really know who I was and I felt like I dug my heels in around my junior year and figured out a bit more. And really, I mean, my career path has evolved so much. I started an M and A in 2020. A lot of people were starting new things in 2020 when we were all home.

Megan:  Thank you so much for sharing that. And I have maybe two questions to follow up on that, but were there any St. Lawrence experiences, maybe outside of the classroom, that helped you find your way or became those defining moments for you?

Ashley:  Yeah, I mean, really, that summer that I spent with Denny, when we met, I stayed at St. Lawrence. It was when folks were staying townhouses for the summer and doing their individual projects they were working on, I wasn't one of those overachieving people.

Dennis:  No, but you were there and that's what mattered.

Ashley:  I was there. But no, so I stayed on campus, I was working in the archives in the library and I just wanted to stick around for the summer. My parents had moved down to North Carolina and I never lived there, so I didn't really know anyone. I went back for one break and one summer after my freshman year and I just felt like I didn't really have anything waiting for me there. And I was like, "Oh, I can stay at St. Lawrence for the summer? Sure, that sounds awesome." So it was a really great experience. I mean, I worked and earned some money and enjoyed Canton in a time when, you know, you endure it all winter long, it's like, why would you leave? Stay and enjoy the beautiful weather. And I just really had no idea what was to come that summer and connected with Denny and Rob Menard, who ended up being one of my best friends and just this whole crew of us there.

Dennis:  It was a lot being on an abroad semester or something, you're just totally thrown in with some people. There were very few cross lines and then by the end of the first weekend, you've got a whole new crew of people. And particularly in the summer, you go from being kind of in a big well of students and there are a small portion of international students there. To the international students suddenly become the big population of students on campus in the summertime. And so, getting to meet so many different people in that way too was cool, and it's still my favorite summer I've ever had, officially, in my power rankings of summers.

Ashley:  Same. And I mean, there's been some epic summers, but...

Dennis:  There have.

Ashley:  It's not the same. I feel like the older you get, you lose your memories, things become a little soft but that just felt so formative for me and meeting these people, because we were, it's like I wasn't that... I dabbled in different things, I was on the crew team for a few years, but I wasn't going to do the sorority thing. No shade, but it's good for you, not for me. That sort of thing just wasn't me, and so I think that's why I struggled, especially the FYP I was in in the beginning, I just didn't have my people and I met some amazing people through the crew team. Like Chelsea, Isdell at the time, now Sweeney, is still my very best friend and we live less than a mile away. Our kids are at the same school...

Dennis:  Oh, that's lovely. I didn't realize you guys were that close now. I knew you were very, very good friends back in the day.

Ashley:  Yeah, so Kate Olson, Shelly Martin, Amanda Dudley. I met some amazing people through my years, but then I really felt like I figured out the crew team wasn't really for me. That level was pretty intense and I just started to fall away and then got involved with Java and was going to see music a bunch. But yeah, so once I transitioned out of the crew team, after the summer with you guys, I just felt like I had found my people and really leaned into that and it was great.

Dennis:  It's interesting because it's kind of blurred because you're meeting so many people first, but I have kind of a mishmash memory of just meeting the whole group is a wave and having like, here's this character, like it's a show and you're just having them all come out on scene. And your character, in my memory of the first time meeting you, is not someone who didn't know who they were or was in any way not a confident person. You were such a dynamic personality and I don't know... Yeah, it's interesting to hear your side of that story.

Ashley:  That's funny because now, I mean think I used humor a lot and I'm glad that came across.

Dennis:  That's what I think of you most. Even now, I have a very hard time keeping a straight face in your presence for more than a minute or two. Even when you're not saying anything, that's funny. I don't know why, but that's like my essential, when I think of you, I think of in underlying just smirking kind of something's going on under the surface that's sort of funny.

Ashley:  Well, that's a hell of a compliment.

Megan:  I'm a little jealous that I missed out on this summer. I may have been in middle school at the time, but...

Ashley:  Making me feel so old.

Megan:  I missed out on it. I'm curious, was there a defining moment of that summer for those of us who weren't there? For me, I think of, when I first moved to St. Lawrence, doing a sunrise hike with some of the slew GA's from athletics on Mount Arab. Was there something that kind of encapsulated that experience for you?

Dennis:  I've got one but I want to hear yours.

Ashley:  Yours first. I wonder if it's the same, I bet it is.

Dennis:  I bet it's not. So mine actually is... I'm just going to be straightforward. There was a lot of fun that was had, a lot of non-academic fun that was had throughout. We'll call it a work hard play hard summer. The defining point, to me, came when... There was one particular townhouse that was exactly across from ours and it was almost like ours was the boy townhouse and that was the girl townhouse, and there was a fancy grownup dinner night that happened and everyone had on nice clothes and sat down very politely, civilized after a lot of just shenanigans going on for a solid week. And it was just like, huh, it felt like a bonding in a different kind of way. I don't think anyone was even having a beer that night because it was a Sunday maybe, and just making a really nice dinner as this big group and sitting out and eating together. Am I fully fabricating this memory or does this ring a bell?

Ashley:  No, that rings a bell. That's legit. It's different from the memory I have. Not of that night, but the solidifying memory for me, it is different. You're right. Mine's less classy.

Dennis:  Is yours Sandbanks related?

Ashley:  Yes.

Dennis:  Yeah, that would've been my second. Yeah.

Ashley:  We just had a great time.

Dennis:  Yeah.

Ashley:  Sandbanks, very integral. A lot of trips down there.

Dennis:  It's true. There really were. Yeah, one of my fan favorite photos that I have from college is, I think, this place down there with a big bonfire and 25 of us all kind of having a great time. So that summer that we've been talking about, so far, happened, really, at the halfway point in this really elegant way, between your sophomore and junior. Thinking forward the night before graduation, who were you then and what was the lie you believed about yourself?

Ashley:  I was living in Java and I'm trying to remember when the job that I got out of St. Lawrence, I don't think I had gotten yet. So I think I felt more sure of myself. I had met my people and I had had a great last two years. The lie that I was telling myself was, I was more confident, but then coming from a place of insecurity differently, not so much in myself, but about... Even though I was about to graduate, I remember kind of feeling like I was failing because I didn't have these concrete plans. I didn't know if I was going to go to grad school. I didn't know exactly what I was going to do. I was getting this degree and I felt very proud, but I still was like, "Ugh, I don't know exactly what I'm going to do. Does this make me a failure in this way?"

And it certainly does not. I think that's the thing that comes with age. It's so cliche, but the older you get, the more time you realize you have, even though it's less, but it's like, you realize how young you really were then, and it's like, oh, nobody, barely anyone really knows what they're doing basically, unless you're going to be a doctor or lawyer or something like that. Most people don't know exactly what they're going to do going to do, and you don't have to know then. So I wish that I had been more confident in that moment being like, I'm going to have these experiences and they're going to contribute. It's great to have that foundation of a degree, but you really got to learn some things about yourself in the world to figure it out.

Megan:  So, I feel like maybe we're burying the lead a little bit here, but I am really curious, Ashley, about your work at Anemone. Could you explain, for our listeners who maybe don't know your work, what it is you do and sort of how you arrived there?

Ashley:  Sure, sure. I would be surprised if people knew really, it would be cool if they did. It's pretty niche but I work with old antique and vintage textiles, primarily old quilts and transform them into wearable pieces. It started out as coats and now branched out into many different things for the sake of using up all the scraps. So making bags and hats and mittens and all kinds of cool stuff and stuff from unfinished quilt tops, old feed sacks and rice and grain sacks, all sorts of cool stuff. So to back up a little bit, I grew up in southern Vermont. My family owned a bed and breakfast for 20 years, so it was an old 1890s Victorian house. I grew up just thinking we had a lot of friends that slept over, had breakfast every day. Like, legit that's what I thought was really... It was a cool way to grow up.

So I spent a lot of time, I mean, Vermont has some old history here, and I remember going to raise the paddle auctions and antique stores with my dad and looking for old things to fill the bed and breakfast with. So I have long had an appreciation and love of old things. So it's that, and then it's liking clothing and thinking about how things are made, but also thinking about the environment and sustainability and the state that our world is in right now and making a difference in a small way. I think so often, people become paralyzed in the same way that you look on the street, you'd see somebody hurt and nobody ends up helping because they think someone else will help, I think a lot of times people get overwhelmed by this thought of, "Oh, there's so much that needs to be changed in the world to help our environment, but oh, it's all just too big. There's nothing I can do. Or even if I do something small, it won't really make a difference so I'm not even going to try."

But really, it's like if everybody made all these small changes, it would really have an impact. So the fashion industry, and textile industry in particular, are very problematic to our environment. So thinking there's already enough of this in the world, we don't need any more new materials. So looking at these old materials and using them to create something new. And for quilts in particular, so many quilts were made from old clothes that were worn out. So folks would cut them up and sew them into quilts to stay warm, and now it's really coming full circle with that and transforming them, again, into wearable pieces.

Dennis:  This is the part of it that sort of gets me in terms of the brilliance of what it is you're doing. I had a big stack of t-shirts and for 10 years, I entertained this idea that eventually I was going to turn them into a quilt or something, because I feel like that idea is very out there in the culture and it never happened, but I always thought that I was going to, and that seemed to be just sort of a natural order of things, that clothes become quilts and I feel like you did it the other way. I've never heard or seen anyone do what you do and to be perfectly honest with you, just hearing the description, it was kind of a head scratcher. I was like, "How does that work? Turning quilts into clothes?" And then I saw, and it's like, it speaks for itself. It's like your work is breathtaking, it's incredibly, and your Instagram is a great follow, I should add. We'll provide a link in the show notes.

But this idea, I've never seen anything like it, I've never seen anyone do it. Where did the inspiration for this come from?

Ashley:  I've thought about it a bit before, the idea of... I mean, just in mending things you have. I mean, in my own life, outside of that mending clothes that you already have, and if things aren't wearable, making curtains out of something or cutting up t-shirts and making dish rags for your kitchen, whatever the case may be. So I had the idea in mind and then it is... I'm not the only one doing it. There's other folks that are doing similar things with quilts or with old towels or upcycling other things. So upcycling, I'm certainly not the first one to do that. But to that end, I was like, why would I buy something when I could very reasonably do it myself? And I learned to sew on my grandmother's sewing machine when I was a kid and I've done a lot of knitting and embroidery and all sorts of things.

So I've dabbled in different textile arts just for fun hobbies. But then sewing, I mean it just really clicked for me. And I think for this season of life too, which I think is important, is like, revisit things because maybe it's just not the right time in your life. So I'd done sewing projects here and there, but it was really with this that I leaned in. So for that first quilt, I just found a quilt on eBay that I liked and bought it and I was like, "Here I go. I'm just going to give it a try and see what happens."

Dennis:  That's great.

Ashley:  Trying to make something wearable and it was like I made that first one and I felt like things clicked into place for me. I felt like this is what I'm supposed to be doing and I felt like... I hadn't thought about it from a professional perspective at that point. I didn't do it thinking... I was like, "I just want to make a coat for myself." I didn't think about making it into my job. But going back to what I was saying about the way that my brain works academically, I'm also a very visual, photographic memory, so I love playing with pattern and design and geometry, and I really like working within something finite. I like working with a set amount of material and a set pattern and then working within those confines to create something that's entirely my own, honoring the original pattern and fabrics used by the maker, but also playing off that in a way, maybe an unexpected way to make it my own at the same time.

So I made that first one and then I was just kind of hooked, and in my personal life, I'm not really a social media person. I haven't gone on Facebook in many years...

Dennis:  I haven't seen you post a personal post in...

Ashley:  In a long time, and then for my personal Instagram, I haven't posted in two or three years. It's just pictures of my kid. And then I got to the point where I was wondering about... I mean, that's a whole nother thing with social media and putting my kid out there and making those choices for him so I stopped posting on my personal. It's not like I have this big social media prowess or whatever, but just for myself as a visual diary, I mean that's what Instagram's all about. So I just created the account just to really document for myself and it started taking off, which is cool. I mean, people then started asking me if I sold them. And so, I actually ended up selling that original coat. I was like, "Yeah, sure. Why not?" And so, I started driving around looking locally at antique stores and stuff and when I could, and looking online too, where my parents live in North Carolina now, so there is plenty of old things down there, so they'll go to estate sales for me and stuff.

So I just got a couple at a time and then folks asked me, if they had a quilt, if they could send it to me, if I would make it into a coat and I was like, "Yeah, sure." So it was all organic, which is really cool. And now it's become this kind of inner competition with myself to never pay for marketing or advertising or anything, and just having it grow. I mean it's all a learning thing because again, I didn't have somebody to build my website. It all just happened over time. It all felt very scrappy, which I enjoyed about it. I love the challenge and I love doing things myself, and I was being cheap because it's not like I had capital. Nobody was investing in the business so it was like, I'm just going to build my own website. I bartered with somebody locally, a photographer, so the main photographs of my website, somebody...

Dennis:  I was going to ask...

Ashley:  Do that for me.

Dennis:  Yeah. That had to have been professionally photographed, I assume, unless that's also a thing that you did and you had a tripod and that stuff, but yeah.

Ashley:  Oh, I do now. Now, I take all my own photos for Instagram and whatever, but for the website, they're really nice pictures. A local photographer, somebody who had commissioned a coat connected me with her local photographer friend who shoots for some big brands. And so, I made her a coat and then she did a little photo shoot and then my friend and I... I'm not super comfortable in front of the camera, but yeah, my friend and I just modeled the stuff and made the website. Same with the Instagram. I mean, really, it's just me taking photos here in my backyard with a tripod and I bet my neighbors think that I'm crazy. Like this girl jumping around in her backyard taking a million pictures. The neighbor has dogs that have dug under our fence and tried to yap at me while I'm taking pictures.

Dennis:  So, I mean, I will say it's funny to hear you say that you're not really comfortable in front of the camera because I feel like your personal charisma, in the image, is such a big part of what makes your Instagram such a charming follow, honestly. And your work is obviously the core thing, but you have a knack for it that I think is really cool to watch. It's cool to see you grow into this persona.

Ashley:  Well, thanks. That's so nice to hear because it's so hard. I think when you're on the inside of something, I don't get a lot of feedback. I don't have this perspective of how I'm perceived or whatever, and maybe that's part of it. People have asked me before and people have interviewed me, not for a podcast, but for some other things, people getting degrees for their doctorates. A couple of folks have interviewed me about what I'm doing for their textile research projects or whatever.

Dennis:  Oh, that's great.

Ashley:  And just asking strategy on growth or how to do this or that, or what's the secret sauce? And really, I just think it's being yourself even through the veil of the internet. I mean, there's so many great things about the internet and so many not so great things. But on my little corner, I think the reason why I've grown a following is just being myself and, honestly, not caring. I really don't care and I'm just trying to be true to myself and I don't know what works so whatever. I just do what I'm going to do and I try to let things speak for themselves. That's why I don't partner with brands or influencers or any of this stuff because it just doesn't matter to me. I'm like, "Why would I do that?" I hope that my work speaks for itself and I hope people get a sense of who I am and that's why they follow.

And it's evolved over time. When I first started, I never photographed myself, I never had my face in pictures and not even for any real reason, more just not being comfortable in front of the camera. And then over time I was like, I don't know, maybe people want to connect more and then people do and it's cool. People really do. I've made some friendships there. People, I think, like to know who's behind the phone, behind the sewing machine and knowing that there's a person there, which...

Dennis:  They definitely do. And so, you are an artist. This is an art object that they want and you are the artist and no one else but you could come up with these designs. I'm fully convinced of that. You do put a lot of yourself and creativity into them.

Ashley:  And I do because other people are doing similar things, but I hope when people are drawn to me for commissioned work, that it's because of the way I'm doing things. And I'm very type A. I like saying I'm chill type A, but the older I get, I'm realizing that I am pretty type A about things and I want things done a certain way. I hold myself to high standards and I hold others to the same. And I realize coming, I do sell things at a higher price point if people look on the website, but I base my rates... I think this kind of goes in the line of sustainability is, I think the world, in the same lens, like my professional background before this, spoiler alert, it was in the beer industry for a long time. So in the same way, even with food too, that there's this focus on local ingredients, buying food locally, micro-brews, drinking and eating what's right around you.

In the same way, I think the veil has been lifted on fast fashion and the way things wear and how things are being made and by whom and what they're being paid. So another way the internet is great for that is it's really lifted the veil on a lot of this. So people are starting to put their money where their mouth is and thinking more about buying things that are thoughtfully made, made slowly. For this in particular, I find it really cool that people are investing a good amount in something that's old and shows it's age and character. It's not this pristine, perfect thing. It's something that shows the life that it's lived and I really love that aspect of it. Now I lost sight of the original question, but...

Dennis:  That's perfectly okay. So many kind of points come up along with what you just said that were interesting in and of themselves.

Megan:  Do you prefer the projects you do with found materials or maybe more of the commission pieces where the quilts are coming from your customer?

Ashley:  So when I started, it was definitely, probably, like 90% the commission work, just because I was focused on the coat. I've collected quilts, but I don't cut everything that I find. I also have a big personal quilt collection, so I just didn't have a bunch and it was just a side project at the time, so I just didn't have a lot of materials on hand. So it started out as mostly just doing the commission work, which I really enjoy. Some people are just finding quilts, but some have some rich family history, which is so cool to be a part of. Somebody's great-great-grandmother making this quilt, her initials are on it, it's dated like 1924. It's crazy and it's so cool to be a part of that history and transforming it into something that can be loved for many generations to come in a new way and become this heirloom piece.

So it started out doing about 90% of the commissions and now it's probably only about 20%. I just took a long break from commissions. I actually just worked on one this morning. So when I started and I started taking commissions, folks would contact me and I was just like, "Sure, if you want me to do it, I'll put you on my list, send me your quilt and it'll take however long it's going to take." And I have a schedule for myself so I ended up booking out for over a year. And so, at that point, I cut off the commissions because I was like, "Oh, it's great to have guaranteed income for a year and can make this my job." But then I didn't really like that first year, I didn't build in any vacation time for myself. And...

Megan:  Yeah.

Ashley:  And it just ended up being a lot. So I learned a lot and every year has been a whole learning experience. So the next year I ended up evening it out a bit more because I also wanted to leave room for more creativity too, because a part of that is making the coats, but then there's a lot of scraps left. So in thinking about that environmental piece and reducing waste, I never ever throw away any scraps. I find a use for everything, so using those smaller pieces. So balancing the commissions with creating different pieces, smaller pieces, but also leaving it completely open because I like working within the confines of that quilt and that pattern but having someone send me something maybe isn't necessarily always my particular style. So it's nice to balance with being given a quilt, like me choosing one and then seeing every step of that process and just really being inspired by what's in front of me to create.

So I like them both for different reasons. I mean, the commissions are a lot more stressful and anxiety provoking, just because you really only have one chance to cut so just being really unsure of your choices. So now, yeah, mostly once or twice a month I do website releases of pieces that I've made and then every few months I'll open up some commission slots to do that as well.

Dennis:  The hesitance about commissions, as much as the time piece and the dress of it, the opportunity cost in terms of what you are able to do your own creative ideas on is definitely a part of it too. And that's been really interesting just recently, in the last two or three months, I feel like the range of garments, the types of things you've been coming out with have been really unexpected and fascinating and you can really see the creativity come out, that you are developing all sorts of interesting new ways to make different sorts of garments.

Ashley:  So everything I make is just something I want or I have this idea for, have a need for or something, and I intentionally don't pay attention to what other people are doing. I don't want to be influenced by anyone and make anything that I just don't want to be really inspired by anyone else. I want my ideas to all be my own. But working with the quilts, have this idea of obviously being vintage and antique and kind of grandma aesthetic, which is kind of in right now, that coastal grandma vibe, but mixing modern silhouettes, it's unexpected. I make these five panel hats. So making those, it's pretty unexpected to think about this cool hip silhouette of a five panel cap, but then made out of quilt or making mittens that are lined with Sherpa, but making mittens from that or these aviator trapper style hats. So it's unexpected so I really like playing off the modern versus the vintage.

Megan:  I'm curious, Ashley, you've talked about fast fashion a few times here. Do you have advice for someone who maybe is experiencing that feeling of overwhelm that you talked about, that the problems of sustainability are so big, what can I do as one person? Do you have maybe steps one, two, and three that a St. Lawrence student or an alumni who's listening to this podcast maybe could think about implementing in their daily lives?

Ashley:  Sure. So, I mean, even just thinking about the things, particularly related to clothes, think about the things that you already have and, can you mend something? Can you alter it? Can you even cut your jeans into shorts? Something like that instead of going and buying cutoff jean shorts. Thinking about if something's past it's life the way it is. It has holes, it's thread bear. I mean, yeah, making some curtains out of it, making a pillowcase, cutting those up to use as dish rags. Small stuff like that. If you're looking to buy new things, don't buy new clothes. Look in secondhand, I mean, there's so many great things in secondhand stores and so much new stuff. There's so much turnover. I mean, even buying, it's like if you're going to buy something new for your closet, buy it secondhand, do a clothing swap.

I mean, those are really small things just related to that. That's not even talking about reducing your use of plastics or using bees wax wrap to wrap your food, that sort of thing, but really approachable things, just looking at what you already have and using what you have and maybe looking at it in a new way. If you think you have a need, look around you and see what you can use. I make these quilt cowls, it's like a scarf. I lost my neck gaiter thing two winters ago, and I was like, why would I go buy something new? I have all these quilt scraps, which has been why I ended up making a Sherpa lined one and it snaps on. But yeah, I mean, I think it can be overwhelming, but really just taking a look at what you already have and how you can use it in any way.

Dennis:  The thing that gets me about the fast fashion bit, as I've tried to educate myself more, are there materials that people should be aware of as they're looking into that, in terms of what makes for a good upcycled piece, if people are trying to repurpose things? Is wool or cotton better to work with than a rayon or polyester or something like that?

Ashley:  Yeah, I mean, you can work with any of those materials, but really, it's like the problematic piece are those plastics, polyester, because really it's just plastic that's melted down and then woven into fibers. That process is so problematic and the plastics don't break down. It's like, cotton, wool, linen, those hemp, those types of materials break down over time and those feel better on your body too. If you're looking to invest in new pieces, definitely, those materials are better. But really, I mean, you can upcycle anything. There's lots of cool stuff that you'll find in thrift stores from the seventies and eighties, and you better believe that's all...

Dennis:  That's true. Yeah.

Megan:  Do you have a favorite piece that you've made?

Ashley:  I get so connected to the first things that I make. Up until two weeks ago, I only owned one quilt coat, one of the original ones that I made. So they feel like my children, in ways. I feel this emotional attachment to everything I make because as Denny knows, art is so personal and that expression of something that comes from inside your heart and your head, that then you put out into something that you can feel and see out in the world, it's deeply personal. So I feel that connection to everything I make, but really, that coat, and then I made a coat for my mom from a quilt made by my great-grandmother over in Germany. So I made that into a coat for my mom, so that's...

Dennis:  Oh, that's great. Yeah.

Ashley:  But yeah, just these different... I made a seal, a stuffed animal. Sometimes I'll do other silly things. Like my kid, Henry, he's four, but I made him a big 20 inch long seal for Christmas, and so, he brings that to school and I told him that I filled it with all my love and so... Stuff like that.

Dennis:  That's wonderful. What advice would you give to, let's say, a senior who is getting ready to graduate later this year, who is interested in these kind of things but has no background, no skillset in it, but wants to do more of these kind of things and maybe dreams of trying to incorporate it into their professional life?

Ashley:  Sure. I mean, YouTube, really.

Dennis:  Yeah, that's right.

Ashley:  I mean, there's the internet, but YouTube, you can teach yourself just about anything. I mean, that's not joking, but sort of. But really, don't be afraid to lean into stuff and make time for yourself. I feel like we're always... I had this tunnel vision on what I thought success was and trying to get there as quickly as you can, or maybe not listening to things like your deeper interests too, or these fringe interests. You don't need to monetize everything you're doing, certainly, but leaning into other interests and carving out time for that. I'm a strong believer in, you get out of things what you give, so being intentional with your time and learning, it doesn't need to be the focus, but carving out some time every day, every week, every month, whatever the case may be, however you can fit it in and how it fits into your life in whatever season of life you're in.

I think, really, doing that for yourself. We live so much of our lives, professionally, for other people and trying to make a living in this grind culture and really finding something that makes you happy, whether you pursue it personally or professionally. But yeah, reading books, reaching out, anybody can reach out to me. I'm always happy to talk about this. But yeah, networking with folks and folks are always happy to talk. Anytime somebody reaches out and asks me questions, "Would you like to talk about this?" It's like, "Oh, this is so fun. I would love to do that." But yeah, being intentional and you're worth it, so making that time for yourself. Yeah.

Megan:  Awesome. Where can people reach out to you? Where can we find out more about your work?

Ashley:  My website, anemonevt.com. My email is there as well, I believe. It's hello@anemonevt.com. And then on Instagram, I'm on there a bunch at Anemone.vt, or if you come to Burlington, Vermont too, I'm always gearing up for a beer. I might not work in beer, but I still love it, so...

Dennis:  This morning, in our group meeting, a colleague, Carly Stein, class of 2015, was in the meeting, and we were saying that we were having you on the podcast today, and she said that she met you at a craft fair in Vermont at some point in the past and didn't know you were a St. Lawrence person.

Ashley:  Oh, really?

Dennis:  Yeah.

Ashley:  That's so funny.

Dennis:  Yeah.

Ashley:  That's awesome. Yeah, I love meeting folks in person. This past year was the first year I did any sort of in-person markets since life felt a little bit more back to normal but it's so nice to connect with people out in the world like that. So tell people to always come up and say hi. I'm always happy to chat.

Dennis:  So if you're passing through Vermont, keep an eye out. Well, Ashley, this has been an absolute delight. Thank you so much for coming on.

Ashley:  Right back at ya. Thank you so much for having me.

[Theme Music Plays Over Credits]

Beth Dixon:  Scarlet and Brown stories is produced and edited by Amanda Brewer, Beth Dixon, Megan Fry Dozier and Dennis Morreale. Our music was written by Christopher Watts, inspired by Eugene Wright, class of 1949. Subscribe to Scarlet and Brown Stories on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Consider leaving us a rating review as well. If you have a story to submit to us, you can email us at connect@stlawu.edu.

[Theme Music Plays]

Beth:   Welcome back everybody to Scarlet & Brown Stories, the podcast where we interview various Laurentians, whether they be faculty staff, alumni parents, or even students, to chat a little bit about what makes their Laurentian story. I'm your host, Beth Dixon. I'm the executive director of New York City Internships and Laurentian Engagement Associate. And joining me this month as my co-host is Dennis Morreale. Dennis, how are you doing today?

Dennis:   Very good, thank you very much, Beth. Glad to be back and-

Beth:   Yeah, very excited to podcast with you again.

Dennis:   Absolutely, as always. Thrilled to have the guests that we have today, someone that I think has had meant an incredible amount to many, many people going back certainly through your time, certainly through my time and farther than that, has really been one of those people that... We think about what St. Lawrence is, and we tend to think about this buildings and the things like that, but also when you stop, there are people who are as much a part of that as the Chapel, or ODY, or the Student Center are certain people are these pillars of the whole thing. And I think we've got one of those people today.

Beth:   Oh, I absolutely agree. And not just from a St. Lawrence perspective, but certainly a pillar of my St. Lawrence experience. So we're really excited to have the Director of Music Ensembles, Barry Torres, here with us today. Barry, we are so excited to welcome you to the podcast. How are you doing today?

Barry:   I'm doing quite well and I'm so happy to be here. This is a wonderful way to cap a 25-year career here, so.

Beth:   I can't believe 25 years. I was just trying to do the math in my head because I knew that you joined in what was... 1998?

Barry:   Fall of '98, I got the full-time position, but I started as an adjunct in 1996. I was hired to direct the then Early Music Ensemble and then as an emergency, since their voice teacher that they had hired for that semester bowed out at the last minute, I also taught voice lessons. So yeah, I would come up one day a week, I was living in Syracuse, and I would drive up one full day. I would come up on a Tuesday evening, do a rehearsal, do a lesson, do a whole day of lessons on Wednesday, do another rehearsal, and go home on Wednesday night.

Dennis:   Setting the scene a little bit. What songs were the students listening to at the time? Just to place us back in 1996, 1997. Do you remember off the top of your head?

Barry:   Boy, you really hit my soft spot there, the spot that I'm not very knowledgeable about. I dropped out of popular music involvement all the way back in the '70s because I went to a concert and came out of that concert, my ears rang for 48 hours straight and I said, "I'm not doing this anymore," so...

Beth:   You said, "Bring me back to the Baroque music."

Barry:   There we go, right. No, but I do have children and they were listening to Stone Temple Pilots and... Come on, what's... Soundgarden?

Beth:   Oh yeah.

Dennis:   Oh, yeah. Yeah, I had that on cassette. I think-

Barry:   What? You had it on what?

Dennis:   Yeah.

Barry:   What's that technology?

Beth:   That's right. So when you said that the Early Music Ensemble, that was... You were just explaining to us before we hit record that that was not just early music singers, which is something that was around when I was around, but also had instrumentalists.

Barry:   Early music singers did not exist, I started early music singers. It was primarily an instrumental ensemble with solo singers, and they did lots of secular music from medieval period right up through the Baroque. So recorder players, viol players, which is the precursor of modern string instruments, and the like. Percussion, pluck strings, we had that... We had a lute.

Beth:   I was just going to ask, was there a lute?

Barry:   Oh yes, there was definitely a lute and there was also this hybrid thing called the lutar. So it was a guitar in the shape of a lute.

Beth:   Oh my goodness.

Barry:   So to ease people into playing lute, because lute's a different animal than guitar. At the time, believe it or not, it was the only instrumental ensemble we had.

Beth:   That's incredible to think about. I know that throughout this interview there's going to be a lot of me being, "Back when I was a student," I'm sure, but knowing now that through the time that I've been involved with St. Lawrence since the fall of 2006 as a incoming first year student to now as a professional staff member, we've had so many music ensembles that have given not only students an opportunity to express themselves with music, but also faculty staff and community members. Can you talk to us a little bit about your role in helping to expand those different music ensemble offerings?

Barry:   Sure. Like I said, when I first came, the Early Music Ensemble was it, and then there was the Laurentian Singers and University Chorus, so there were basically three ensemble opportunities. How that evolved was due to lots of situations, lots of circumstances, it takes staff to create an ensemble and run an ensemble, and we were looking at this... I think the music department was looking at it from the point of view, "What can we realistically do with the staff that we have?" And so things were paired down quite a lot. When I was an adjunct, and even in my first year, so to speak, and I was still directing the Early Music Ensemble, that was part of my position. It was directing Laurentian Singers, directing the University Chorus, directing the Early Music Ensemble, and teaching voice lessons. So there were a bunch of string players that came up to me and said, "We would really like to have a string orchestra here, can you do something about this?:    And as part of the Early Music Ensemble, I started a string orchestra that played Baroque string music.

Corelli, and Vivaldi, and Handel, and what have you. And I had solo wind players that could play also too. So I remember we did a whole Vivaldi program, which was so much fun with wind players, and recorder players, and flute players, what have you, and oboe players. And it became obvious to the department that they needed to create a string ensemble. And so that's when Chris Hosmer was brought in and he started the String Orchestra, which is an institution here now. It's been going a long time. And we all realized Chris was an adjunct, we figured we can do this with adjuncts. It took a long time to establish it, but we started a wind ensemble. It went through various machinations, so to speak, but it did eventually hit hold. And now we have a wind ensemble too, string orchestra, wind ensemble. But the real important developments for me was in the realm of pop music, we started this thing called Rhythm and Roots Ensemble that my good friend and former colleague Mike Farley started, along with David Henderson, had a lot to say about this.

This grew out of a thing that we called special productions, which was a very strange situation where you created an ensemble every semester around a particular repertoire. That didn't work, quite frankly. We had some really interesting programs, but it was an incredible amount of work for the person who was directing it. They would have to really create scores, create parts, and do all kinds of stuff. So we started this thing, which was a hybrid of that called Rhythm and Roots, in which we would put together pops ensembles that were again focused on a particular repertoire of the most famous incarnation of that is what still exists, the Funk Ensemble, which was known as SLUFunk. And that started as a Rhythm and Roots Ensemble and we had some wonderful students with us. Oh, I'm blanking on his name. Matt, a wonderful saxophone player.

Dennis:   Oh, Wyckoff.

Barry:   Yes. Matt Wyckoff, thank you so much. When Matt was here, I thought to myself often, "You should be down in New York City playing clubs, you shouldn't be here." But here's the St. Lawrence experience, he had academic interests. He wanted to be a lawyer, and I believe he went on to practice law in environmental law, but he was a monstrous player, but he was also a pretty darn good director, so they handed the winds off to him, and Matt got them really good and tight. And Michael, of course, is as an old time rock and roller, and he really knew what to do. And the funk band really established itself. Who else was there at the time? I think Grace Potter was here at the time.

Beth:   I think you're right.

Dennis:   It was really close, she might have been just before him.

Barry:   Maybe. Yeah. Right, it was because I think... But nonetheless, the seeds were there, and so we did all kinds of... We did a Larry Boyette was very much involved, and now Larry Boyette directs the Funk Ensemble, which is a really cool thing that he does because the students have a lot to do with how that ensemble runs and it's just taken on a life of its own. But we did a Beatles program, we did a Motown program, we did a women's rock and roll... Joni Mitchell and whoever was... So we did a whole lot of incantations of that, yeah.

Dennis:   I was in the Michael's Jug Band.

Barry:   Yes.

Beth:   The Jug Band.

Dennis:   I jumped in on that one and-

Barry:   My son David played jug.

Dennis:   That's right. Yeah, I remember that, that was one of the most fun things I've done. I actually did that when I was working here. Michael is very gracious for someone with very mediocre musical skills, but a lot of enthusiasm about the particular subject matter. And Michael couldn't have been more gracious and inclusive to let me participate, but that's one of the most fun things I've done in my time here.

Barry:   Yeah, and if you remember it correctly, Michael brought in food. We did it down in underground and we had all this authentic Louisiana cuisine, so it was a lot of fun, and that was one. Another great Rhythm and Roots Ensemble was The Country Band.

Dennis:   Yeah, I did that one as well the following year, yeah. That was blast.

Barry:   Come on. The guy who's in Nashville right now, I'm so terrible on names today. Blaine...

Dennis:   Holcomb.

Beth:   Holcomb.

Barry:   Blaine Holcomb, thank you. Blaine Holcomb. He was part of that band. And I'm glad you brought up the thing about Michael and all of us actually, including community members, the only exclusively student group... Well, I think SLUFunk is exclusively student too, but the only exclusively student ensemble is the Laurentian Singers. Every other group has community members playing in it and I think that's an important synergy.

Beth:   I agree. And I've had the opportunity, as a professional staff member and community member, to sing with University Chorus and play in The Wind Ensemble when I was living in Canton. And it was amazing to me, having even grown up in the North Country and been a part of a musical family, and always was involved with some kind of music ensemble, that St. Lawrence really plays an important role for community members to have this opportunity for artistic expression and community. Was this something that was really top of mind for you when you were trying to help put together some of these ensembles or maybe market them to the community?

Barry:   Well, yes, I took the lead from University Chorus. University Chorus is almost entirely community members, there's only a few students in it, and it gives the students who maybe are not... Because Laurentian Singers is a select ensemble, and maybe to give those students who didn't make the grade, so to speak, get some singing experience. And there have been many students over the years who sang first in University Chorus and then became a Laurentian singer later. So that model was there already, and so everybody who we hired and all the ensembles that were started, I didn't start them all, this is a music department thing. They were started from the point of view that yes, we would provide community members the opportunity to play and, "Hey, what's right up the road from us?" The Crane School of Music, and how many people in this community are graduates of the Crane School of Music?

Beth:   Quite a few.

Barry:   Quite a few. Singers, instrumentalists. And so not only did we give them the opportunity, but they also lent their experience to make this student experience more rich with having some really fine musicians playing in these ensembles.

Beth:   Well, I'll tell you that having, again, been involved with a couple of these ensembles, what's really interesting is I also was a part of, for the last couple of years, I was in the the Potsdam Community Band, which is all the music teachers in the North Country have come together to play. And so being the first chair, third clarinet for those that know, I was like, "I've really made it," versus in an opportunity where we're in a smaller ensemble with St. Lawrence, where maybe we're moving around and giving people more of an opportunity to say to a student, "We're going to challenge you on this song, we want you to play a part that's maybe harder than what you would normally play." And there's a little bit more experimentation with that. And I really appreciated the opportunity to have a composition of music lovers and musicians of all different skill levels to help, not only keep your chops up if you're somebody who's just wants to keep their chops up, but if you're somebody who wants to challenge yourself, if you're somebody who's just trying to find other musicians to play with.

And I really think that I can say from a personal standpoint, that was necessary for me, for my mental health in living in the North Country and-

Barry:   Amen. Amen.

Beth:   So thank you for that and for the rest of the music department for thinking about this. One thing that is striking me, that I think we need to just make a clarification on before we move forward, is there might be listeners who are thinking, "But what about the Saints and the Sinners, and all that stuff?" Those are actually not music department sponsored ensembles, those are ensembles that are student run. They're clubs, organizations. So what we're referring to today are ensembles that the music department sponsors it, and runs and works with.

Barry:   Yes, and that always has to be clarified. People always come up to me and say, "Well, what about the Saints?" And I'm saying, "I don't direct the Saints. They run themselves as do the Sinners." And let's not forget, the Upbeats, and all those three acapella groups really contribute to the richness of the musical culture at St. Lawrence. Really, I'm so happy they're here. I'm so happy that people are just singing.

Beth:   Yeah.

Barry:   Yeah.

Beth:   So one of the questions I had for you, Barry, is when we look at that musical richness, we were talking to one of the other members of the production team for Scarlet & Brown Stories, Megan Fry Dozier yesterday, and she said, "I went to Fairfield University..." Or she worked at Fairfield University, sorry. And she was saying that at other small private liberal arts schools, there isn't necessarily this nature of music married in with the liberal arts, that's a big part of the traditions. It's a big part of all the different things that we have going on, even the fact that at five o'clock, the chapel bells ring at St. Lawrence.

Barry:   Yes.

Beth:   Can you tell us a little bit, from your perspective and perhaps over the past 25 years, how does music really make the Laurentian experience different, even if you're not somebody who's a, quote-unquote, music student?

Barry:   Well, it's precisely for that person who is, quote-unquote, not a music student. The music department has always keeps in mind its charge as being a music department in a liberal arts college. And we feel that music making should be an important part of that experience, not just the studying of, but the making of music. And we want to give everyone the opportunity to make music, and we feel it's an important part of our culture. And I think we've done a good job of accommodating all kinds of musicians, as you say, the more sophisticated musician. I've had a voice student, a former voice student right now, is finishing up his DMA in opera performance at University of Utah. Now okay, but then there's the other person who comes in who's never sung in their lives. And by the way, he came in not having sung in his life, he started-

Beth:   The opera student?

Barry:   Yes, he started at St. Lawrence with absolutely no experience, and he was able to fit together working with a professor at Craig, because I'm not an opera person, I really can't teach opera. But we worked with these people and this person, Jose Santelices Ormazabal, and he is now finishing up his DMA. On the other hand, Chris Hosmer makes it a point of writing third violin parts that anybody can play as part of what he does when he arranges things for the string orchestra.

Beth:   I had no idea he did that.

Barry:   Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. There are all levels in the string orchestra, and he pulls it together and he does these wonderful programs. Chris is a... He's a big movie music guy.

Beth:   Yes, he is. There've been many concerts of the music of Star Wars, and John Williams, and all these... Yeah, yeah.

Barry:   Oh yeah, absolutely. And I think it's wonderful because it really... It brings people into music making, as do our pops ensembles. And some people have lamented the fact that the Early Music Ensemble is no longer and it hasn't been. And the reason why is because everybody wants to do these other things. When I was growing up, early music was... How shall I put it? It was a sexy thing to do. It was the chic, new, different thing. And it did lend itself practically to making music with beginners and also sophisticated musicians, at the same time. And it was a fun thing, but it ran its course.

Beth:   And I also think what's interesting, we talked a little bit about the various decades of popular music, what students were listening to in the '90s, you were talking about... The last time you were really involved in the pop concert was in the '70s or something. But early music, for those that don't know, I mean, there's a lot of roots of heavy metal music that's early music, and jazz, and rock, and there's all these different things. So it's interesting to hear you say that this was the chic thing, because now all of a sudden the little light bulb in my head's going off that's like, "Oh yeah, this is how other forms of popular music came to be."

Dennis:   So when you say early music, could you more precisely, what does that refer to?

Barry:   Well, quite generally, it's music... Well, it actually is... I can't even use that. But it used to be music before 1750, so it was Baroque music, Renaissance music, and Medieval music, that was all... So we're talking music from roughly 1100 through 1700. Although now, when we hear Mozart, and Haydn, and Beethoven, and even Brahms done with what we call original instruments, instruments that were part of the time, that were somewhat different than the instruments we use now. Strings. Strings had gut strings on them, their bows were different, and it really makes the music sound very different. So that's what early music is.

Dennis:   One of the things I've been thinking about as we've been here talking and reflecting on your time here, I'm reflecting on my own time here, which is going on, if I include my student years, about 20 years that I've been here. And during that time, I'm realizing the times that I've been in your presence have almost exclusively been emotional peaking in one form or another. I think you've been in the room, or within view, every time I've cried on campus for the last 15 years.

Barry:   Oh my goodness.

Dennis:   Or you've been present for these moments of extreme triumphant... And I think that's true for a lot of people, that by the nature of what you do and what you bring to the table, it's these emotional peaks in one form or another, whether it's commencement, or at these big campaign events, or inaugurations, or just these emotional peaks across the board-

Beth:   Candlelight.

Dennis:   Yeah, so in some ways, you've gotten this interesting view at the soul of the St. Lawrence community, and I'm curious what that experience has shown you about what unique insight into what the soul of the St. Lawrence community is, and maybe how that's changed from when you started to where you are today.

Barry:   Well, thank you, Denny, because that's one of the best compliments you could have ever given me, that I was there when you had a deep emotional experience, and music is very much about that. Music brings together head and heart in a way that nothing else does. And so when I was first hired for the full-time position, the very first thing I did with the Laurentian Singers in public was to sing at... Remember the old senior class dinners that they used to have-

Beth:   Yeah.

Dennis:   Oh yeah.

Barry:   It was just the senior class dinner at that time, we had to come and sing the school songs, that's what we do. And I'm coming in to this experience and thinking, "Oh gosh, we're going to do these nostalgic, humdrum songs." Well, first of all, we started to work on them, and I looked at these songs and I said, "Wow, this is pretty decent music." And then I see that our Alma Mater was written by none other than J.K. Gannon, Harry Shilkret wrote a tribute, and he was a very interesting man. He became a doctor, but he was a really interested and very committed musician. Well, anyway, there we are, and I start directing the Laurentian Singers singing the school songs, and I can hear people weeping. I can feel that, I can see the students, I can see the strong emotional connection, the strong people connections, it was palpable. I came out of that and I went, "Whoa, what's going on here?" And it's been that way ever since. 25 years of conducting the school songs how many times a year, Beth?

Maybe 40, or 50, or more, or 100. That's a lot of times doing those songs and I never tire of it.

Dennis:   From a spectator standpoint. The context that I think of it almost feels like a different song, when I think about it at those... I've been, through my work, I was at a number of those senior dinners, and that feels, again, like more of a triumphant, and just the sense of togetherness and belonging in the community. It's this very warm, joyful. So I think of those songs in that context as one thing. And then when I think of it on a Sunday morning, on Commencement Commons, is when... It almost makes me tear up now, even just thinking about it, it's a very, very different feeling song in that context, so-

Barry:   Absolutely. I hear what you're saying. Beth, you remember, I'm sure, quite well singing the school songs your senior year. Did you make it through it?

Beth:   No.

Barry:   Were you actually able to sing when you got to the end of that or were you just so choked up that you just couldn't sing?

Beth:   Well, so here's the thing. Even just over the course of Commencement Weekend, you sing them at least three times. We sing them at the Laurentian Singers Commencement Concert, which is a concert that's comprised of music that the seniors have pointed out as, "These are some of our favorite songs over the past four years, let's sing them again in celebration before we graduate tomorrow." So you sing then, didn't make it through then, I was weeping. I was weeping, I don't even think I sang the whole last song of whatever was in our program before the school songs. And then in the morning of Commencement... Oh, what's that ceremony called? I'm blanking.

Barry:   Baccalaureate.

Beth:   Baccalaureate.

Barry:   

We don't sing them at baccalaureate.

Beth:   Oh, okay.

Barry:   But we do sing them earlier in the week for the last lecture.

Beth:   The last lecture. Yep, yep. As a student, what was special... And I'm actually curious to know if this has always been a tradition or not, or if this is something that started with you, Barry, of welcoming Laurentian Singer alums up to sing the school songs at different concerts, whether they be on campus or on tour. And as a student, having Laurentian Singer alums come up and sing, that was always cool. I was like, "Ah, look it. They're so excited to come up and sing with us. This is great, what a wonderful opportunity to connect with somebody." And we always talk about how the Laurentian community is so connected. This is a school that we pride ourselves on this alum student connection and that was just a small part of it. But then being an alum myself and being welcome to come back up, there's a whole new wave of emotion of nostalgia that comes up, where you look back and go like, "Oh my God, I was one of these students up here and now I'm not, but I'm also here with them still, and this is beautiful."

Can you tell us a little bit, is that development of that kind of tradition, did that happen under your watch or was that always been the case?

Barry:   No. No, I inherited that. As far as I know, that's a tradition that goes way back. I bet it goes all the way back to the beginning, I believe it was Dick Gilbert. So yeah, no, they've always invited alums to come up because those three songs, Chapel Bells, A Tribute, and the Alma Mater are so indelibly imprinted in the consciousness of every St. Lawrence person, but also, especially for the Laurentian Singers, because come on, Beth, what did you do? Sing it 200 times probably while you were a student?

Beth:   Oh, absolutely.

Barry:   And they're wonderful songs, and people remember them, and they are so internalized and so meaningful for them, that every time we have to invite people up. It's disappointing when there aren't any alums in the audience and that happens rarely, by the way.

Beth:   Well, that's something that... If we're going to turn it a little bit to Laurentian Singers here, I always think that is really interesting. So I know that the listeners of the podcast have heard me talk about Laurentian Singers before that, that was probably the biggest pillar of my St. Lawrence experience, that was my community, those were my friends, that was my big activity on campus. But one of the big things that Laurentians get to do every year is go on tour, which I think is really exciting. And it's a wonderful opportunity to get off campus and share music with other people, and see other Laurentians from all over the place. Like you said Barry, there were rare times that... We would be in Southern California singing the school songs, and all of a sudden, five, 10 people would come up and sing with us. And we were like, "Whoa. I didn't know there was this many Laurentian Singer alums in San Diego, this is incredible." What has it been like, in your experience, going to various different places every year and meeting different Laurentian Singer alums?

Barry:   No place is perfect, but I think St. Lawrence does people well. Personal connections, unabashedly put, love.

Beth:   Yeah.

Barry:   St. Lawrence really does it well. Do they do it perfectly? No. But people really feel that connection. And it's an important part of... It's not an important part of life, it is the foundation of life, and music is one of the best mediums for expressing that kind of love. And to me, that's why we make music, we make music to connect. Sure, we try to do it as well as we can so that it's as beautiful as it possibly can be. But when it comes right down to it, the meaning of it is that love connection. And I don't know what to say, it gets reinforced every time I go to a different place. This particular tour, my last one, is going to be, I'm sure, even more so, because there's so many alums in the Northeast, in the Boston and New York areas. And I've already heard from, oh, I don't know, dozens who say they're going to be there. And I have a feeling this time, when we sing the school songs, there may be more alums that come on stage that are on... Than are in the Laurentian Singers.

Beth:   Oh, I'm sure.

Barry:   And that is going to be really, really quite special.

Beth:   Well, I think it's important to note that this is your last tour as the Director of Music Ensembles, but also the Director and Conductor of the Laurentian Singers. And I'm curious, at the time of us recording this, we're a couple weeks away, and this episode will drop about a week before your last tour. Can you tell us a little bit about what the tour is looking like? You mentioned that you're going to New York City and Boston. What other places are you going to, in case people are interested in coming and listening to the Laurentian Singers?

Barry:   Originally I was thinking big plan. "My last year, let's go someplace really special. Let's go to Italy." Then I had shoulder surgery, and complications, and all kinds of things happened, and there were just organizational things that I didn't get done on time. And I decided to then just do a domestic tour and go to where the most St. Lawrence alums in the world are, and that is New York and Boston. And I'm so happy I did that because in Italy, who knows about us? But now I'm going to connect with all of these Laurentians that I have... Sorry.

Beth:   It's okay.

Barry:   That I've had the great pleasure to be with for 25 years, and I'll get to see them one more time. So we're going to start off in Rochester, where a current Laurentian Singer, Kira Connolly, is from. And so we do like to, many times when we do local tours, hit high schools, hit hometowns of seniors, and Kira is a senior. We'll have this wonderful concert in Rochester. We'll go down to New York City, we will give a concert at St. Malachy's Roman Catholic Church, two blocks away from the hotel that we're staying at.

Beth:   Oh, couldn't plan that any better.

Barry:   Any better, and it's called The Actress Chapel. It's a very beautiful, small Catholic church, so we'll give our concert there on Monday evening. And then on Tuesday, we're going to be at the Cornell Club as a Saint St. Lawrence event. On Wednesday, we travel through New Haven, and we have current Laurentian Singer, Nick Tiedemann and Tyler Karasinski, who unfortunately this semester is in New Zealand. Fortunate for him, unfortunate for us. But at any rate, we will go to his high school at North Haven and give a concert there, and meet students, of course, because that's an important part of what we do on tour. And then we go on to Boston, Friday evening the 24th, we'll be at Old South Church again giving a concert in their chapel, and that will be lovely. Oh, I forgot on Thursday we're going to be visiting Charlton Middle School, because former Laurentian Singer, Evan Bartlett, class of '13 is the music teacher there, and so we're going to meet his students there on Thursday afternoon on the 23rd. 24th is at Old South Church.

25th, we will connect with another former Laurentian Singer, Emma Greenough, class of '18, who has helped us immensely in Boston for everything that we're doing there. She is employed now by the Boston City Singers, it's a youth choir in Boston, and really a world-renowned youth choir, they're actually going to be touring in Ireland in June. So we're going to have a three-hour session with them in the afternoon. They're going to teach us a song, we're going to teach them some songs, and it'll be a whole lot of fun. And then we'll end up in Burlington on our way home on Sunday, and we're going to sing at the first Unitarian Universalist Society there and talk about full circle, the very first Laurentian Singers tour concert I directed happened in that venue back in 1999.

Beth:   Wow.

Dennis:   That's amazing.

Barry:   And then I will do my last concert there. And there's going to be at least three, if not more, members of that 1990 Laurentian Singers there at that concert singing with us.

Beth:   I'm calling it now, Barry, you're not making it through the school song. I'm sorry.

Barry:   Let alone other things. One of the things we're doing, one of the songs we're singing, is The Beach Boys' Good Vibrations, which I actually arranged for that group in 1999. So they're going to join us singing Good Vibrations, those singers. So it's going to be an emotional time, but a really good time. Good vibrations.

Dennis:   That, I mean, it's just such an amazing tour. And honestly, I have to say is thrilling as Italy sounds like it would've been for you guys, there's part of me that for the... The St. Lawrence community is delighted to have this be the final tour, I couldn't think of a better loop than what you've put together there. As we've talked about, I mean, so many people have passed through the Laurentian Singers or even if not, have had essentially the experience I described, where just being in the community during the last 25 years have felt a real emotional impact from your role in the community. And you've left this mark on the program in this really profound way. When people look back, how do you want to be remembered?

Barry:   I don't think about those kinds of things to tell you the truth, I really don't. I just want to get in there, do my job, do it well. And part of doing that job really well is making beautiful music with beautiful people, and that's what I do. And if people remember their time of making music at St. Lawrence as being meaningful, and full of connection, and full of joy, that's how I'd like to be remembered.

Dennis:   One thing that I know that I'll remember, I've talked about, but when I think about those key St. Lawrence memories, so many of them have a musical soundtrack to them that you were involved in. So that might be how it is in many cases.

Barry:   So be it and that's wonderful, that's wonderful. We didn't mention one thing that's was really important that I did also.

Beth:   What's that?

Barry:   The Gospel Choir and that's such a wonderful thing that has been ongoing. And with my good friend Shaun Whitehead, just a remarkable musician, but as our chaplain, she does amazing things, and that's keeping on going. And the annual gospel music workshops, again, there's another... Come on, St. Lawrence University up in the middle of the North Country, and there's a gospel music workshop, what is this? It's great, it's just wonderful.

Beth:   Absolutely. And for us, that's also a nice connection because we interviewed Shaun last year, and so we talked a lot about the Gospel Choir and gospel workshops, but she was obviously giving her due diligence of saying, "And Barry Torres is a big part of this too," so it's great to obviously bring that up. And I always think about the tour that we did with Shaun, and we learned gospel music, and we were down in-

Barry:   Civil rights music.

Beth:   Civil rights music, and we were down in Southern Mississippi and Louisiana for that, and how much of a powerful experience that was. And I know for many people, our tours, who we interviewed a couple months ago, feels the same. That Gospel Choir and the gospel workshops were something that ended up meaning something really meaningful to so many students who would not have had a gospel background.

Barry:   Absolutely. Absolutely, it's again, another special thing that St. Lawrence does. While we're very traditional in many ways, in many ways we are not.

Beth:   So Barry, I have a couple quick questions for you, so almost like a lightning round.

Barry:   Okay.

Beth:   All right. So the first question is, what was your favorite tour? Either location or repertoire, whatever sticks out the most to you?

Barry:   I'm going to piss people off if I answer, because it's nothing to be their tour.

Beth:   Then list a couple of them if that is helpful.

Barry:   Sure. Some of them are really unusual. New Mexico in 2002, and not because we were a rebuilding group at that point, it was a pretty rough year musically in some ways. But they were wonderful human beings that I went on tour with and we went to this unusual place, and it was great. The tour you mentioned, 2009 to New Orleans, our first tour post Katrina and Shaun was with us. That was great, that was great.

Beth:   That was an incredible tour, yeah.

Barry:   I don't know, there's been so many. To tell you the truth, I think the last New York City tour in 2018, wonderful musically and wonderful from the people point of view. I mean, France was great. Oh my God, singing in La Treille, it was a year after you graduated.

Beth:   Yeah, don't remind me, Barry.

Barry:   Yeah. But we sang a concert in this 14th century church in this little town in Normandy, and the mayor greeted us and thanked us for freeing his village in 1944.

Beth:   Wow.

Barry:   People were just... "Oh, yeah?" And then the very next day we were in Omaha Beach, so those are some of the big highlights and that was in that... 2011.

Beth:   All right, excellent.

Barry:   Yeah. So, yeah.

Beth:   Again, this might be a couple of them that you have to list, what's been maybe your favorite repertoire or piece of music that you've been able to conduct? It doesn't have to be Laurentian Singers, it could be of any of the music ensembles that you've put together.

Barry:   Well, I'm almost loathed to answer that question because I've come to love all kinds of music. I used to hate country music, and I love country music now. But be that as that may, I think your year 2009 when we did The Peaceable Kingdom of Randall Thompson. That was special.

Beth:   I think that that was a piece of music that I would argue, probably two thirds of us were like, "Ugh, why are we learning this?" And then once we learned it, we were like, "We don't want to sing anything else." It's what? A 22-minute piece?

Barry:   Yeah.

Dennis:   Could you say the name of this again? I want to look it up later.

Barry:   The Peaceable Kingdom, it's settings of various Isaiah passages put together in this wonderful whole. It's eight movements long and it's totally acapella. And yeah, I know, it's like pulling teeth to get you guys to learn it in some ways, in some ways not. And I hear from students even now, who say they put the CD on the player and they sing along with it.

Beth:   I am lucky enough to have the recordings of when we sat and recorded it in the chapel. And I don't own a car anymore because I live in New York City, but when I have an opportunity to be in the car and I have 20-some minutes, I pop it on and I sing with it because it's a lot of fun. Or I don't sing with it and I try to listen to parts that maybe I wasn't listening to as much when I was in the ensemble singing. "Oh, I didn't realize the basses did this part there." I don't know if you're aware Barry, but I'm a nerd, so-

Barry:   Really?

Beth:   And I've often said this, that whether it's a Laurentian Singer reunion or one of those pieces that just comes up at Commencement Concerts, it is not uncommon for Laurentian Singers, even if you weren't in the choir in 2009, to know the last couple of movements, because we've sang that with you at reunions. Ye Shall Have a Song, please play that at my funeral someday. I love that song.

Barry:   I won't be around for that... But yeah, no, no, no. Yeah, that's an important song. And this goes back to my high school experience, my high school choir did The Peaceable Kingdom when I was a freshman. And every year at graduation we sang Ye Shall Have A Song from Peaceable Kingdom, so it's just a remarkable piece of music. But like I said, there are too many other... When we did the Mozart Requiem in 2000... When was it '17 I think? 2016-

Beth:   For University Choir?

Barry:   For University Chorus.

Beth:   Yeah, that was 2016.

Barry:   And the Laurentian Singers also sang with the University Chorus, so that was a lot of fun and meaningful. But I think the Peaceable Kingdom thing really sticks out to me.

Beth:   As a side note, I need to say, I think one of my favorite performances, even though I was really like, "Oh, this is just another thing we have to do," was working with a full orchestra and the University Choir, and it was the Laurentian Singer women, and we did the Hymn of Jesus by...

Barry:   Oh yeah, Gustav Holst.

Beth:   Gustav Holst.

Barry:   Yeah.

Beth:   That was incredible.

Barry:   Well, I'm glad to hear that.

Beth:   Yeah, that's another one I pop on every once in a while when I've got a while to cook.

Barry:   Yeah, that defines you as a nerd, by the way.

Beth:   Thank you. I still sit here with the (singing).

Barry:   Yeah. Oh gosh, it was lovely, yeah. And the big orchestral things that we did with University Chorus, but also some of the smaller things. The final concert I'm doing with them will include some of my favorite music from the 19th Century parlor songs from this book called Heart Songs. And my daughter Kate is coming to be the soprano soloist on some of these. So yeah, we can do those big glorious things, but the simple music making too was really quite moving. And for Laurentian Singers, Can't Help Fallen in Love, and I arranged that also in 1999, I arranged it for that group. So yeah, but there's too many pieces of music that are too meaningful.

Beth:   I'm going to get you in trouble with my last question.

Barry:   Okay.

Beth:   What is your favorite Laurentian tradition or ceremony that you and the Laurentian Singers get to either... Well, not just the Laurentian Singers but that you're a part of, whether it be the Laurentian Singers or the University Chorus, or whomever.

Barry:   Candlelight. It's really a special event and all the groups are there. The Laurentian Singers are there, the University Chorus is there, and Sondra Proctor has gotten a children's chorus together in recent years, and that's the whole North Country community coming together. We fill the chapel twice. It's not just cold Candlelight, it is Candlelight because there's nothing but candle light in that room. And that's such a special, meaningful thing in and of itself, just being there in that aura, in that candle light, in that candlelit space. And we all love the chapel, of course. Yeah. So yeah, more in general, really almost every time we sing the school songs, it's important and it's meaningful.

Beth:   All right. Denny, do you have any last questions for Barry?

Dennis:   I don't. Just to say that this has actually been a really beautiful conversation, start to finish, and thank you so much for coming on.

Barry:   Well, thank you for having me, guys. If you only knew where I came from before coming to St. Lawrence, it's been a blessing for 25 years. In 1996, I had no idea what life was going to be for me for the next 25 years and it's been great.

Beth:   Well, Barry, thank you so much. Not only for doing this podcast with us today, and sharing your experience and some history, and just giving us a much needed, just sense of, "Let's sit back and just be thankful," and I appreciate that. But thank you for everything that you've done for the Laurentian community over the past 25-plus years. And if you are in the Northeast and you know the Laurentian Singers are coming close to you in the next week or so, please go out and support them. If you have the opportunity, I guarantee you won't be disappointed by the music that you hear, and why not feel that sense of connectedness through the school songs. So Barry, thank you again and we will catch you all next month.

Barry:   Thank you, Beth, and thank you Denny.

Dennis:   Thank you.

[Music plays over credits]

Beth:   Scarlet & Brown Stories is produced and edited by Amanda Brewer, Beth Dixon, Megan Fry Dozier, and Dennis Morreale. Our music was written by Christopher Watts, inspired by Eugene Wright, class of 1949. Subscribe to Scarlet & Brown Stories on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Consider leaving us a rating review as well. If you have a story to submit to us, you can email us at connect@stlawu.edu.

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[Theme Music Plays and Ends]

Dennis:   Welcome back to the Scarlet & Brown Stories podcast. I am very pleased to be here tonight with my co-host, Beth Dixon, and we have a very special guest tonight. Before we get into that, Beth, I've got a random question for you.

Beth:   What's that?

Dennis:   So do you prescribe to the whole infinite parallel universes theory of reality?

Beth:   Oh, okay. So Dennis, this is a whole can of worms that you're going to open for me. But the long... the short of it, I should say, not the long of it. The short of it is, yes, I do.

Dennis:   Okay, cool. So the thing I love about my job is that a lot of it consists of just going to lunch with people I find interesting, and then the people I find super interesting, inviting them on this podcast. There's so often that I can't believe that's what my actual job is. So in many, many, many of those parallel universes, I'm doing the same job here, but in many of those infinite parallel universes, I'm doing a different line of work.

Beth:   What was that?

Dennis:   That is the work that our guest tonight, the one and only Joe Chiarenzelli, class of 2011, is actually doing in real life in this universe. And that's why I wanted to have him on the podcast. He and I got together, I don't know, it was before the pandemic, so it was a while ago. But I just was like, I can't believe you're actually doing the thing I fantasized about doing junior and senior year of college when I was taking government classes. I just so thoroughly enjoyed our conversation. I've been wanting to have you on ever since we got this going. And so Joe, delighted to have you here and welcome to the podcast.

Joe:   Well, thank you for having me on Everything Everywhere All at Once deserves an Oscar.

Beth:   Well, they have 11 nominations.

Joe:   That might be a job that you have at different universe, at least for Denny. But yeah, no, I'm very excited to be here. I won't lie and say that I didn't compliment the podcast without hopes of being asked. You guys know me. I'm second generation Laurentian, I have a sister there now, I have a sister who graduated a few years ago. St. Lawrence is a big part of my life. I get up there quite frequently. People kind of look at me weird when they notice a 33-year-old man just wandering around campus, but nobody's kicked me out yet. So I'm very happy to be with you both.

Beth:   Well, we're so happy to have you. I know we're going to spend quite a bit of time talking about the amazing work that you do, and I know that it's kind of a mystery at this point. We haven't really said what you've done, but let's keep it a mystery a little bit longer. Because you mentioned that St. Lawrence is such a big part of your family and your life and everything. So one of the things that we like to do is let's take a little drive back into the past. So this is probably, I hate to age us, but about 15 years ago or so. Who were you the night before matriculation? When you came to campus, I'm assuming because of your father you had a little bit more of an idea of what St. Lawrence was about than maybe the average student. But tell us a little bit about what was your first night on campus or the night before, what were you nervous about? Who did you think you were going to be at St. Lawrence?

Joe:   So yeah, that's a great question and I'm going to bump it back one year. I'm going to start with the original sin of my educational journey, which is that-

Dennis:   All right, I'll attack him.

Joe:   ... For my senior year of high school, I went to the Clarkson School at Clarkson University.

Beth:   Well, this has been a wonderful podcast. Thank you so... No. The Clarkson school's such a good place to go for your senior year especially. We won't fault you there.

Joe:   It was very good and was also a crash course in learning what I did not want to do. I went into college with the presupposition that I would go pre-med, go to med school, but I realized in that time, A, the classes were really, really hard. Not that other things are easy, but you know, you figure out how your own brain works. And the second thing I realized is, oh boy, I don't like blood. So that's my weakness.

Dennis:   That's key. Yeah. That's a big one, yeah.

Beth:   Good thing to figure out.

Joe:   So my first year at St. Lawrence was my sophomore year of college. I transferred in after being at Clarkson for a while and realizing that the classes I enjoyed there were the ones that were most close to the classes I would be getting at St. Lawrence. The seminar classes where we talked about Blade Runner for a while, that was like my jam. So on the precipice of going to St. Lawrence, I kind of had exposure to a great path for some people, but something that I realized didn't work for me. And that's probably a theme that's going to come up repeatedly as we serpentine my way in my life path, my career. But on the eve of going to St. Lawrence, I was mostly excited. Having had parents who went there, having friends, even, who went there. But I grew up in Potsdam, so there's a lot of interplay there.

Dennis:   Many of our listeners almost certainly know your father, I'm going to say.

Joe:   He cuts a profound figure, I think. If you like geology.

Dennis:   He certainly does. He's got many, many faithful devotees in the Geology Department.

Beth:   Absolutely. And just to make it very clear, your father is Jeff Chiarenzelli of the Geology Department for those who are like, "Who are they talking about here?"

Joe:   Right. Jeff Chiarenzelli and his Rockettes, right?

Beth:   His Rockettes, that's right.

Dennis:   So you weren't like 13, 14 year old being like, "Yep, I'm headed to St. Lawrence." It wasn't a clear cut path like that.

Joe:   No, I had no idea. To a certain extent, I think it's natural for people to look at where their parents went, someplace one town over, and be like, "Hey, maybe it's time for something that's a little different." So I had applied to a lot of different places with the eye of being a transfer student, but when I came down and I looked at the schools I'd gotten into, it was places like Skidmore, other small liberal arts institutions. And it seemed I had a perfectly good one that I knew something about one town over. By that time, having had a little experience at a different institution, I kind of just concluded, you know what? This seems like the safe bet. It is an exploratory period just naturally in university and why not see what's available right next to me. Has a great reputation. I didn't know it then, I know it now, it has a phenomenal alumni community. So I was pretty excited by the time I'd accepted and knew I was going to St. Lawrence.

Beth:   Yeah, I definitely feel like I just share so many of those same thoughts. I grew up in Gouverneur, the listeners know this at this point. My father had gone to SUNY Potsdam, my mother had gone to Ithaca and had gotten her master's at Syracuse in St. Lawrence and those were the four schools I applied to. And I was like, ah, I broke every rule I had for myself, which was I was going to not go to a place that my parents went and I was going to not go to a place that was within two hours of my house. So I ended up going to the closest school to my home, but it wasn't a place that my parents had gone. Although apparently my mom has told me multiple times that she wishes she had decided to go to St. Lawrence. She's a Laurentian by parent status, so we'll just count her in there at that point too.

Joe:   Maybe by the multiverse status too.

Beth:   That's right. In the alternate universe in the multiverse, she went to St. Lawrence and maybe I didn't, I don't know. I'd like to think in every multiverse I go to St. Lawrence. So what were you most excited about? It sounds like you had this idea of what St. Lawrence was going to be like, especially having coming from the Clarkson School. What was your idea of that you were so excited about the night before you moved on to campus?

Joe:   So the thing that I was really excited about, I kind of jokingly referred to my class where we just talked about Blade Runner. But that was like a freshman philosophy class, looking at some of the themes of dystopian fiction. That was kind of a whole new world. That's a bunch of different disciplines all smashed together. I knew in advance of my first morning of classes, I had had the time to look, sign up for the courses I want. I had some more freedom because I was transferring in, and I was just really excited to get in those courses that were a bit more synthetic, I'd put it. Mashing up different areas that the real, no BS part of the liberal arts education, to really get in there, have discussion, have debate, and work on some of the skills in terms of articulating my own point of view and better understanding others. There isn't a lot of that in lecture-based courses. In St. Lawrence, thankfully there's a lot of it.

Dennis:   Yeah.

Beth:   Absolutely.

Dennis:   Where would you say that you settled in on campus?

Joe:   I ended up, once I got it all sorted, I think by the end of my sophomore year I was Bio and a Philosophy major.

Beth:   Oh, cool.

Dennis:   Oh wow, that is super cool.

Joe:   Yeah. When we get to what I do, it's very weird, but you can kind of see the seeds of it, right?

Dennis:   Oh, yeah. It makes so much sense. I'm going to go out on a limb, I haven't seen the numbers, but I would speculate that there's not a whole lot of Philosophy/Bio double majors floating around out there in the job market.

Beth:   Yeah. I just have this vision of youth working on a microscope slide and being like, what does it mean?

Joe:   I mean, I wonder if your vision's from a video camera, because that's exactly what it was like.

Beth:   What is the meaning of this life here under the microscope if it's this many.

Joe:   You could tell by the difference in grades between my two majors.

Dennis:   For real.

Joe:   Really focusing more on the why of the thing.

Beth:   That's so funny.

Joe:   I mean, to answer your question, Dennis, I found a really good advisor in the Philosophy Department. Still there, Jenny Hansen. If you look at the work she's done on cosmetic psychopharmacology, which is what I ended up doing my honors thesis on while I was there, it was really, really good to connect immediately with someone who almost exactly matched my interests at that point. And then once I was in the department, I was an active member in philosophy club, and if any of my philosophy club friends are listening to this, they will say that I'm saying it much less so than I actually was. I was really into philosophy club. There's a good group of people who were always around to participate in what I was talking about earlier. In that context, the discussion, the debate, really kind of honing your skills outside of class, but having a lot of fun doing it. I think, and this is untrue, but I do remember, what was that section in the Hill News where they do little zingers?

Beth:   Is that the Saint's Purgatory or something like that?

Joe:   That's it. Yeah.

Beth:   Yeah.

Joe:   I would like to correct the record. They once, actually, I think it was twice, they made a crack about us smoking weed on the top floor the studn [inaudible 00:   11:   47] communion. That is not true, but we did have a lot of fun and laughed a lot. I can see how someone could get that impression.

Beth:   I love that, especially with the April Fools blotter that the Hill News does. Sometimes there'll be like the security blotter, they just come up with random things that did not happen on campus. And I always think that that's funny too. And some of those would be like, oh yeah, the philosophy club was found asking what is the meaning of life? Those kind of things that-

Joe:   See, but that one is true.

Beth:   Okay, let's get into that then. No, I'm just kidding. Well, it sounds like then that you were probably really into this idea that Dennis brought up in the very beginning of this multiple universes and everything. That seems like it was right up your alley when you were at St. Lawrence.

Joe:   I am trying very hard not to make the whole conversation about that.

Dennis:   About just going to just pure metaphysics the rest of the time.

Beth:   Honestly, Scarlet & Brown Stories would go in a very different direction, but I also think that because Laurentians learn is one of our pillars, there's this idea that I think this would be something people would love to listen to too.

Dennis:   Yeah. Don't threaten me with a good time.

Joe:   It's funny, and this kind of goes to what we're talking about, and Beth you mentioning the continuous learning and just genuine interest in things. Just a quick anecdote. My wife and I, we take these CrossFit classes at our gym, and I got talking to the trainer one day and she was a student doing her honors thesis in philosophy. She let me take a look at her thesis, and we had a two-hour-long conversation about it, and I was like, oh my gosh, all this stuff is still rattling around up there, it must mean a lot to me.

Beth:   Totally. Well, I don't think you ever lose the drive to learn and question and do those things, especially when you have such a academic background like at St. Lawrence where you're constantly forced to think about, how does biology and philosophy connect to each other? I think on paper, a lot of people will go, well, you're talking about a social science of theory, and then you're talking about biological fact that, sure, has some theory into it. But I like the idea that no, we are being forced to remember that everything has theories and everything has facts, and therefore you can challenge everything, essentially.

Dennis:   One time I was at a diners getting breakfast and me, I forget who I was with, but literally back of a napkin, we started making a network map of all of the academic majors and just drawing lines of the subfields that connect them. And philosophy, it was like one of two or three that every single other discipline connects to.

Beth:   Oh, I'm sure.

Dennis:   Basically, it's like whatever other sub-branch of any other field has theory next to it, basically that's the line that connects back to philosophy.

Joe:   I mean, after all, it's the love of knowledge, right?

Dennis:   Yeah, right.

Beth:   Totally. Absolutely. So let's connect a little bit. I feel like we've kept the audience in suspense enough. Let's connect a little bit about this love of philosophy, biology, and how did your St. Lawrence education set you up for your career? What are you doing now and how did you get to that point?

Joe:   Let me answer it kind of chronologically. If there's one thing I want to emphasize for anyone about to graduate, even thinking about what they want to do, that, at least for me, the thing that worked out best was to just be a ping pong and bounce around and see what works. I mean, I kind of referenced it already with my experiment with Clarkson. It wasn't what I wanted to do, so I adjusted course. So after graduating from St. Lawrence, I did not have a job lined up. Pro-tip, get a job lined up.

Dennis:   Wait, wait, wait. You're saying that in 2011 it was hard to find a job?

Beth:   It was hard to find a job?

Joe:   That's right.

Beth:   I don't know. I can't relate as a class of... No, I'm just kidding

Joe:   That's right, I forget who I'm talking to. We're all children of the Great Recession to a certain extent. But I was able to find a job working at a nonprofit in Vermont for Martine Rothblatt. Martin Rothblatt's a very interesting person. She helped put the legislation together to put up the GPS satellites, and then a little while after that, in the '90s, she basically started a biotech company to cure her daughter's heart illness and successfully did it. Yeah. It was pretty crazy. And Martine hired me to run part of her nonprofit. Are you familiar with the term transhumanism?

Beth:   Yes, I am to a certain extent. For those aren't.

Joe:   That's a good point. There's an audience. I had dabbled in it from an academic perspective, but it's the whole idea that technology accelerates exponentially, processing powers getting faster, and eventually what we're going to be able to do is upload all of our thoughts to the internet and live forever. So this nonprofit was kind of aimed at that goal. But the hook that brought me into it was the organization, Terasem, was very interested in the ethics of all that, and that got me on board. So I was there for about half a year. I realized, again, ping pong, I didn't particularly like nonprofit work.

Beth:   Okay, yeah, fair enough.

Joe:   So I ping ponged myself back to St. Lawrence, actually, and I worked on a grant that Joe Erlichman in the biology department, neuroscience specifically. He had a laboratory that was looking at cerium oxide nanoparticles and their ability to kind of affect Parkinsonism, so like a precursor to Parkinson's in humans and ALS in mice and rats. So I helped him on that grant for a while. I think it ran about six months. And at that point I was like, okay, I've tried this and it was very, very fun to do, and it was very, very fun to work with Joe and Ana Estevez, people I had had while I was at St. Lawrence. And when that grant ended, I was kind of left with no plans next. This is when it kind of starts to take direction.

But I was googling and an ad for a master's in public health popped up, and I kind of thought to myself, you know what? I hear a lot about MBAs. There seems to be a glut of MBAs. I've not heard of this. And the policy side of health kind of matches exactly with my biology and philosophy background. So that's when I decided to go to the university at Albany. I was very, very lucky. Another little bit of nepotism here, my father had worked at the School of Public Health there many, many decades ago. So I did know a few faculty members there, and they were able to set me up as the graduate assistant for the department, which was super, super helpful experience for me. A lot of soft skills, a lot of just herding cats, getting things organized. I know you guys work at a university. Sometimes it's hard to get professors altogether rowing in the same direction, but that was kind of my job.

Essentially I spent two years there and one night in the spring of the year I was graduating, 2015, my now wife came to me and she said, "Hey, have you seen this Presidential Management Fellowship Program?" And I said, no, because I wasn't looking for anything. I made the same mistake not lining anything up. And she was like, "yeah, it closes at midnight tonight." I was like, "Oh, okay." And she's like, "You should apply." I was like, "Oh, okay." So she thankfully covered for me in the grants writing class I was missing, and I kind of tossed in an application. At that time, the Presidential Management Fellowship Program had kind of a multistep process. They did multiple interviews, et cetera, and I got through all of that. I can presume only by the skin of my teeth. This is a 8,000 applicant pool, and they winnowed it down to 400, and then you still have to find a job.

It just gives you special hiring status. I was lucky enough to be selected, and then I had to find a job. And wow, saying all this in order, there is a lot of serendipity because I kind of applied on a whim and I had this special status, which was great. It was something that I valued a lot and had some prestige, but I had no idea where I was going to go. But it turns out that through osmosis, I was actually renting a room and living with my landlord who worked at, I guess this is the big reveal, the Department of Health and Human Services Office of Inspector General, which is where I now work. I had kind of just been looking around for stuff and I was like, wait, hey, I do know one organization because I've heard about it on my couch for several years. I interviewed with them. I had the strong sensation that not a lot of people knew about this organization. It's very important and I'm sure we'll get into that, but I was kind of lucky to have just absorbed the context of where I now work and was able to successfully get through the process and start in 2015.

Beth:   Going through the whole history is so important because so many people in of our parents generations, for example, graduated, they got a job, they stayed with that job for a long time and maybe moved positions a couple times in their lives, and that was about it. And that's so not the experience of especially Millennials and Gen Z. So it's really important to hear how did one thing build upon another, and this idea of ping ponging to lead you to working in the Office of the Inspector General. I do think that, especially with how many more students with our public health major that we have on campus and are trying to explore of what are the different avenues I could do with this. I want to make a difference and such. I think it'll be really powerful for people to hear, yeah, this wasn't really a thing when I was a St. Lawrence student. I went and got my master's degree and, like you said, on a whim I did this and it's worked out in such a wonderful way for you. So tell us a little bit about what your current position is in the Office of the Inspector General, and for those that don't know what the Office at the Inspector General does, can you give us a brief summary of that?

Joe:   So the Office of Inspector General, there's more than one. There's generally one for each department in the federal government. And these were all put in place in 1976, largely as a result of Watergate. So the idea was we're going to establish these Offices of Inspector General. They're going to be independent from the department they oversee. They're going to report both to the Secretary, but also to Congress. So they have the independence to really look and perform oversight duties. How we kind of describe it is we fight waste, fraud, and abuse throughout all of health and human services programs. But let me kind of name some things. These are things like Medicare, Medicaid, the National Institutes of Health, the Food and Drug Administration, the Health Research Services Administration. I think there's roughly 30 different subdivisions. And these grants, the big healthcare programs, Medicare and Medicaid, I mean they touch pretty much every American's life at some point or another.

That's kind of what we're tasked to oversee. My part of the Office of Inspector General is the Office of Evaluations and Inspections, and we kind of do large scale policy analysis across the country. So our main work product is reports. So what we do is we kind of spend some time collecting data, talking to different people throughout the federal government who we oversee, and then we'll wrap that up and present it to the public. So these can be on topics like nursing homes, which is obviously a huge issue at the moment, drug safety. Pretty much anything that affects healthcare in the United States, it's something that's within our purview to look at.

Beth:   You must have had a very easy past few years than. Just smooth sailing. Didn't really have to look at anything. Just no big headlines within the healthcare world at all.

Joe:   Oh yeah, it's been great. And I should say, my wife also works in the department too, so our household has been serene for the past few years.

Beth:   It's been a paradise it sounds like. Wow, wonderful.

Dennis:   Yeah, I think the time when I sat down for dinner with the two of you was, in very recent memory, was the many attempts at repealing the Affordable Care Act and all of the cascading policy implications of what that would've meant. And so in your day-to-day, you're essentially doing research into real world cause and effect of a policy and to help the government make recommendations on policy in that way. Am I doing justice to?

Joe:   That's right, yeah. The other thing to remember, that's kind of what my office puts out. We also interact with the auditors, the investigators, the police officers, essentially, the lawyers who do civil litigation. So while we put out these reports that are our main product, we're also doing a lot internal-facing to coordinate with folks who have jurisdiction over certain things or have ability to rectify situations that in my shop we don't. But I will say, because I want to be as straight about it as possible. So my job, I work for headquarters, and the real research and analysis is being done by folks all across the country are teams of analysts. In my role, I'm kind of corralling a portfolio of different ongoing reports. So at any one time, somewhere between 10 or 20. We put out about 40 a year, and I specifically am focused on Medicare Parts A, C.

For reference, Part C is Medicare Advantage. You probably see commercials for it on CNN all the time. And health information technology and cybersecurity topics. So basically my job is to liaise and make sure things run on time. So if we need information from one of the parts of HHS, a team will call me and my job is to go get that. And that's really where, you know I was saying earlier I kind of learned how to herd professors. This is a similar thing. You're kind of acting as the liaison in very tense situations, trying to get information you need, trying to obviously behave professionally, but keep things at a simmer rather than a boil. I mean, there's only five of us right now in my organization trying to corral my whole organization, which is like 150 people, which does these reports on 30 different agencies under the HHS umbrella. We kind of have this strategic planning and directional role as well. At least for me, I've always found that... Well, both of you've met me before. I don't have the greatest attention span.

Being able to switch from thing to thing and kind of break up your day. I know I have 10,000 tasks, but they're all manageable. And it's a lot of planning, organization, and just making sure you're kind of moving quickly and efficiently through things. It's very rewarding because the mission ultimately is to improve healthcare for the American public, improve other areas like the human services side, where the Administration for Children and Family looks after folks coming across the border who are then in their custody. It really is this great mission of improving it and also keeping fraudsters, you know, other things out of these programs.

Beth:   I was going to ask, does your Office work with other Offices that are working with other departments? So do they ever overlap, potentially working with another Office of the Inspector General?

Joe:   Yes. I totally understand the question, and it's a great question, and it's actually a very, very opportune time to be asking that. Because in the OIG community, as I said, there's more than one of us. Mine specifically, HHS is the largest civilian one. But because of all the money that went out during COVID and the desire to make sure that none of that was diverted, something that was established in... I'm not going to pull the law out of my memory on this call. People can Google this. They set up a Pandemic Response Accountability Committee, and what that does-

Dennis:   I've heard of this.

Joe:   ... Yeah, it brings everyone together across the government for things that are specifically related to the pandemic. So it is something that is currently happening right now, and I think it's uniformly regarded as a very good thing to have folks talking to each other. Because there is programs, they can be co-funded by departments or they can have different parts of different departments have different steps in a process. So it is very beneficial to us. And that PRAC oversight committee, I encourage people to look it up. They've been doing great work looking at what's happened to the money that went out as a result of pandemic relief.

Dennis:   It's very interesting actually, because I can remember walking away from the first time we sat down and you kind of laid out what it was that you do. The analogy I made in my head, it's funny, you talked about some background in doing neuroscience work, but is that your role almost felt like this neuron. You're connecting these disparate parts of this giant collective brain. And that, in any organization, including, to be honest with you, St. Lawrence does seem to be something that is lacking. I often feel like our ability to coordinate with what Student Life is doing in career services always feels less than what it should, even though everyone's always doing their best. But in the government, that's kind of a famous thing that the left and right hand not being in coordination. Would you agree with my assessment there?

Joe:   Yeah, I really like the metaphor too. I do think that's right. It is a lot of linkages and, to a certain extent, it's also about something I was talking about earlier. That kind of synthesis. There is a lot of information stored across the federal government, but knowing how to get it and knowing who might want it is very, very hard to figure out. It does kind of require somebody both with experience, you learn it over time, who might be interested in this, who might be interested in that, but also just kind of an exploratory willingness to ask and a willingness to meet people and be like, "Hey, we're doing this thing. I think it matches up with something you're doing. Let's collaborate. Or at the very least, let's share notes so that we can both improve."

Beth:   Once again, taking that liberal arts education and applying it and saying, "Hey, we don't necessarily need to know what the perspective is ahead of time. Let's explore and learn about it together so that we're better informed."

Joe:   Exactly.

Dennis:   So just thinking back to a couple interesting things here. I found this interesting. We had been trying to connect down a time to actually set up this call for I'd say two weeks or so. And part of what we had to hold on was that you needed to check in within your department and ethics advisor. And as soon as you said that, again, the philosopher in me was like, oh, why don't we have an ethics advisor? I want an ethics advisor to have lunch with and ask all sorts of things. I found that to be just kind of thrilling. But also I think, for one, it's impressive just that that's going on and I guess it speaks to the origins of the Inspector General coming out of Watergate and those things. It makes a lot of sense. It does feel like a high level of administrative machinery, in one sense. I'm just putting myself back in the shoes of senior year me and how daunting government work seemed, even though I felt an attraction to it. That kind of administrative machinery felt so intimidating. What has been your working in the government... Because I feel like you and I had similar sensibilities. We were similar types of college kids.

Joe:   I'm nodding vigorously from listening to this.

Dennis:   Yeah. How has that part of it all been for you?

Joe:   That's a brilliant question because it is something I think about a lot. So I kind of got really lucky when I on a whim applied for this special program, the PMF, because on the other side of that, you don't have to go through the competitive process of getting a job. You can hand someone a resume and you have special hiring status, so they can hire you. I've participated in the LINK program for a while and do some other mentoring. The thing I always tell people is it is really, really hard to get in because it is very intimidating to be faced down with, "Hey, you know how on regular resumes, it's two pages. It might even be one now. But your federal resume needs to be everything you've ever done in your life."

Beth:   Oh, wow.

Joe:   So in kind of a perverse sense, I was almost unlucky to not have to do that. I had to learn, and I still have to learn, that the machine of government moves pretty slow. It moves very deliberately. There are a lot of steps, but if you do take the time and you actually walk through the steps, it begins to make sense. For instance, with a question about checking with my ethics attorney. You're kind of on that. We hold ourselves to a very high standard to be independent, and that includes the appearance of partiality. So even with something like this, I went to them and I explained what I was doing, and they were like, okay, that's fine. We understand colleges like to talk to people about careers. So it was fine, but you could see a scenario where, hey, maybe a buddy of mine who works on biomedical research, who's a professor at St. Lawrence, invites me to go speak. Well, then what happens if that person's applying for a grant?

There are many different scenarios where you can see potential conflicts of interest, but that isn't our standard. Our standard isn't don't have conflicts of interest. It's even higher than that, which is don't even appear to have some sort of conflict of interest because it diminishes our ability to be impartial and independent, even if there's no there there. But it creates an impression and ultimately, as I've said, the mission and the reason I like it is because it's to improve things for the American people. If you start to lose that trust, then you're not really fulfilling your mission very well and not showing folks you're credible. As an oversight agency, that's bottom line for us, that we are credible and that people know it. So when we say something, it means something, right? If we say there's a certain number of deaths in nursing homes, we want it to be understood that we don't have any motivation to say that other than having found the facts.

Beth:   I think that's just fascinating work. It's necessary work, especially in an age with mass communications, which also leads what I call it the age of mass miscommunications. And I think that having agencies that you can trust to give you objective information is really important. Something that you mentioned that is not about your work, but about the work that you do to connect back with St. Lawrence is something that we've seen a string of people do, which is being a LINK mentor and a mentor in a variety of ways. What would you say to people who are considering getting involved as either a mentor, or trying to do something to give back to St. Lawrence with their time?

Joe:   I know for me, it's a great feeling being able to give back. But one of the other things I think Laurentians pride ourselves on is our leadership ability, and there's no better way to both improve someone else's life and your own life than being that leader. Using that time to understand how you can positively influence people, maybe make something that was hard for you a little easier. To a certain extent, one of the things that society today, there is a lot of vindictiveness. If somebody coming behind you has an advantage you didn't have. I think mentorship, the LINK program, finding other ways you can do it formally or informally, kind of flips that dynamic. You're doing a real act of good helping someone out, and you're also investing in yourself because you want to be the Platonic ideal of you. You want to be the person who's giving, you want to be the person who can help people out. And to a certain extent, you have to have your praxis. I realize I'm slipping into philosophy terminology here.

Beth:   But we like it. Yeah.

Joe:   The highfalutin way I can say it.

Beth:   Well, I think your point stands though, which is that it's important to realize that not only do you feel good, it's a good self-serving thing sometimes to help other people, but at the same time, you're going to be learning about perspectives that maybe you weren't as aware of that are happening currently now. You're going to get a better sense of what challenges do St. Lawrence students face today that maybe we didn't face 15 years ago or whenever you graduated. And that gives you a better sense with which to give back or in your own world, have a better sense of what's happening in the world of a higher education or St. Lawrence and that kind of thing.

Dennis:   Just speaking to this theme, we talked about the deliberate nature of the federal government and for specifically students who may be looking at that as a place they want to be. With this big deliberate machine, is there still a place for networking?

Joe:   Yes, there is. I think something that is wise to understand if you are interested in the federal government is that the hiring process is long and it's mechanical and knowing somebody isn't going to help you out. Basically, like everyone else, you have to go through this process or do what I did and get into a specific program. There is stuff like the Presidential Management Fellow Program or, more broadly, they're called Pathways Internships, which do kind of give you an easier way to get into the federal government. Pathways Internships are available while you're an undergrad, and I believe up until you graduate, and there may be other programs. I know for me the Presidential Management Fellowship Program that's available to people graduating from grad school. So if that's coming up for you, if you're listening, look into it. People have my name and my email's not hard to figure out. If anybody asks for it, they can have it.

Dennis:   He's a great guy, listener. Trust us.

Joe:   But yeah, so there's definitely a place for networking, especially once you're in the federal government. Getting in is the hardest part because from there, you can network, you can do what you said earlier, Dennis. You can kind of find ideas, you can connect people, you can make things happen using your network. It's something that's vital for me. If I didn't have colleagues and, frankly, friends throughout the federal government, I wouldn't be able to get half the information I need.

Dennis:   That's fascinating. Yeah.

Joe:   And it's much easier to move around from agency to agency, department to department once you have that federal status. So once you're in that network really, really does become key. And then you can have happy accidents like end up working where I do, and running into at least one or two St. Lawrence people.

Beth:   I mean, that is a pretty common thing despite wherever you work. I think that's what the nicest thing is about the Laurentian community. Well, Joe, I feel like we could talk to you for hours about this, so we might have to have you come back on the podcast, but we are definitely at the end of our time with you, unfortunately. If there's one last thing that you wanted to tell the Laurentian community, either about the work that you do or inspiring words to give back to the St. Lawrence community in some capacity, what would you say?

Joe:   Kind of just sum up what we've talked about. Be willing to try new things, tap into your network. If you're interested in stuff, get a head start. Don't wait until you're looking for a job to try to figure out what you're going to do next. Don't trust fall everything. Do some planning. But ultimately, the best advice I've heard recently was from Scott Galloway, who's a professor at New York Stern School of Business. He was kind of talking about how the COVID-19 pandemic was an accelerator of trends. So you had some remote work. Bam. It's 10 years in the future with the COVID-19 pandemic. But the same thing happens for personal habits too. And I think something for everyone to remember as we kind of come out, to a certain extent, from the COVID-19 pandemic. The disease will be with us for a very long time, but as things kind of get back to normal, evaluate your habits, think about what you want to be doing, what you want to develop in yourself, and for folks who are still in college, now is the time. You can really put in place habits now that will get you 10 years into the future real quick, because the world has started changing very, very fast, and I don't think it's going to ease up anytime soon.

Beth:   I think that's great advice, especially this idea of kind of ties into what President Morris's vision is of impact. Having our students not think about the job they want, but the impact they want to make on the world, and what are the positions and employment that will get you to that point that will give you a sense of fulfillment. And so I think that's wow, right in line with what the Laurentian mission is coming up. Joe, I want to thank you so much for joining us on Scarlet & Brown Stories. It's always so great to chat with people who are doing amazing things, and we are so thankful for the work that you do, not just for the country, but also for the Laurentian community.

Dennis:   Yeah, this is a pleasure. Thank you so much, Joe.

Joe:   Well, thank you both. I really, really enjoyed it.

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Dennis:   And there you have it folks. Joe Chiarenzelli, class of 2011. Great guy. He's someone that both Beth and I have known for a long time. Very excited to have finally had him on the show and thought that was a great conversation.

Beth:   I definitely agree, Dennis, and it was so much fun too. We were saying that Joe's just one of those people that you can see how he's gotten into such a wonderful position and a trustworthy one for the American people. He's just so easy to talk to, he clearly loves what he does, he loves looking at the world from a variety of different perspectives and is looking to make sure that everything is working the way it should in America. And if it's not, then trying to find the evidence to change things. You just could tell that he's the kind of person that you want in that role.

Dennis:   Oh, absolutely. And also, just generally, one other thing I'll say is that I think this came across in the conversation, but he's just to his core, a genuine intellectual, deep thinker. We could have spent an hour talking to him about dozens and dozens of different topics because he really represents St. Lawrence in that way of just deeply curious and enjoys thinking as a sport.

Beth:   Yeah, thinking as a sport. I like that. He definitely is like that. And I like to think, Dennis especially, you're like that too. So it was just really fun to see you interact with him, and especially because we know that this was a role that, as you said multiple times, this is kind of one of your dream jobs.

Dennis:   I know. I hope we didn't oversell it, if anything, but that was definitely, that always sounded like a dream job, being in those roles at the high levels of the federal government doing real thinking work, collaborating with interesting research happening all over the country at many different levels. And he's right there doing it. So I'm inspired to see him as I often am when we meet with various Laurentians. And again, it's why I love getting to do this.

Beth:   Absolutely. Well, thank you all so much for listening to the Scarlet & Brown Stories podcast. We'll be back again next month with another amazing Laurentian interview.

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Beth:   Scarlet & Brown Stories is produced and edited by Amanda Brewer, Beth Dixon, Megan Fry Dozier, and Dennis Morreale. Our music was written by Christopher Watts, inspired by Eugene Wright, class of 1949. Subscribe to Scarlet & Brown stories on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Consider leaving us a rate and review as well. If you have a story to submit to us, you can email us at connect@stlawu.edu.

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Beth:   Hello everybody and welcome back to another edition of Scarlet and Brown Stories, the podcast where we break down what it means to be a Laurentian through our various different Scarlet and Brown stories. We interview faculty, staff, alumni, parents, and whoever else identifies as Laurentian to hear a little bit about how St. Lawrence has played a role in their lives. I'm your host, Beth Dixon. I'm the Executive Director of New York City Internships and Laurentian Engagement Associate, and it is so exciting to have another amazing interview to kick off the 2023 calendar year. Hard to believe that we're already in 2023.

I had the distinct pleasure last month of chatting a little bit with one of my classmates, Arturs Saburovs, class of 2010. Arturs Saburovs is a career diplomat with a Latvian foreign service having focused largely in communications, public diplomacy, and a whole bunch of different affairs. And it is so exciting to not only hear a little bit about his international relations career, but also how did that get jumpstarted through being an international student at St. Lawrence University. It'll be really exciting to break down a little bit about what did being an international student mean and how has he maintained being such an engaged alum for the university since graduation. So without further ado, let's kick it off to my interview with my classmate, Arturs Saburovs.

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Beth:   Hello everybody and welcome back to Scarlet and Brown Stories. I'm so excited today to be speaking with a classmate of mine who has done amazing things in the world of international relations, especially for his home country of Latvia, and I am so excited to be talking with Arturs Saburovs today. How are you doing?

Arturs:   Hi Beth. I'm great. Hello From London.

Beth:   Oh yes, that's right. I should have mentioned that you are living in London now for your work. How was the weather in London today? Because again, we have a five-hour difference right now, so I have to say was because it's like nighttime for you.

Arturs:   It's living up to its expectations, so it's dark and rainy.

Beth:   Well there we are. I studied abroad in London in the fall, and that's pretty much exclusively what I remember from it.

Arturs:   Well, we do have warm weather and we had a extraordinary dry summer and very sunny summer, so we were kind of treated with good weather.

Beth:   Well, that's good. It's always important to have a little treat every once in a while. Arturs, one of the things that we really wanted to discuss with you is going back to St. Lawrence with your international student experience. As I mentioned before, you're from Latvia and it would be great to hear a little bit about what was being an international student like for you on campus?

Arturs:   Well, thank you for asking. Yeah, I've been a huge fan of the international student community at St. Lawrence. I've tried to keep up with all the work that my classmate is continuing to do and I'm really, really loving to see what she's doing with the students and I'm glad to hear and see that they have a new, separate house, which is an actual I house.

Beth:   Yes.

Arturs:   We actually used to have a floor that we call the I-House, but yeah, I used to be a coordinator for three semesters. One of the coordinators, there used to be two at a time, so I was one of them as well. And we organized a very busy schedule of events from Diwali to various cultural nights and where we cooked international cuisines to discussions and so on and so on. So it was very, very active. And weekly, we still had the I-House tea time, which continues, is a strong tradition.

We also had an IHOP thing where we making pancakes with the international student community and with the American student community as well because we have to remember that the I House was always a mix of students and we always loved having International House have American students in it.

Beth:   Absolutely.

Arturs:   And one of my co-coordinators was also an American student, Matt Spearing, at one time. So it was just, we got a lot of support from the university, from the president at that time as well. And we had incredible support and love from the late Kathleen Buckley who we loved dearly. And I was very glad to be back on campus after she had passed away to speak at her memorial service. A very moving experience and a huge responsibility, very humbling responsibility to try to capture in words what she meant for everyone. So yeah, loved St. Lawrence ever since I stepped on campus, I've had the best experience there.

I've tried to give back. Maybe I'm not in position to write huge checks, but I'm in position to contribute a bit and I continue to contribute by being a link mentor with the Center for Career Excellence. I must not say the old words, not the old name. And they've been amazing as well supporting the mentors. And I've had several international students that I've worked with, the American students as well, and I just manage to keep up with what's happening on campus through those students as well.

And each time they surprise me that they're just so smart and so hardworking and they thrive at St. Lawrence and everyone goes through this transition period in college where they're trying to adjust to the new situation, being away from home. Even if their American student is there away from home. But somehow, I don't know, I never realized that I will have such strong love for St. Lawrence when I was a student. And it's just this love has always just grown and I continue finding my ways back and I'm trying to find ways to contribute and connect. And I've posted the London program students at the embassy.

Beth:   Oh, yeah.

Arturs:   At the embassy of Latvia I hosted them twice last fall and this...

Beth:   That's so cool.

Arturs:   And sorry, not last fall, last spring and this fall. So they have a course on European Union politics and so they come to a European Union Embassy. And so we discussed various international topics and I was able to talk in more detail about foreign policy as well, which I love to do. And it's just a great way. I never knew that as a student I would be one day at the Embassy of Latvia to the United Kingdom and I would be welcoming students there and have them ask me hard questions.

Beth:   Absolutely. And that's what I think is so fascinating and amazing about you in particular, Arturs, is that you have been somebody that I got to be friends with when we were at St. Lawrence and I lived on I House for one semester when I got back from being abroad. And it was a wonderful way to stay connected with this global community. When you live in London, as I know that you can identify with now, you live in a very multicultural area and one of the most multicultural cities in the world. And to go back to St. Lawrence, for me, I wanted to make sure I was still engaging with various different cultures. And I have always been struck by the passion that you've put into all of your projects, whether it be I House when we were students or trying to bridge this gap between domestic and international students and continuing that work after you have graduated.

I think that that's such a wonderful way of giving back to the community. It's something that will always continue to be a challenge, I think for a lot of students. Like you're saying with the international community and the domestic community, college is about finding yourself, finding your interests, what are you going to be good at, how do you want to translate this into a career afterwards? And growing and learning, thinking critically. And at the same time, there have been feelings of, "Well, the international students kind of keep to themselves and the domestic students don't really engage with international students." But there were many people like you and there continue to be people like you who are going, "No, no, no, no, we're breaking down those walls, let's integrate. Let's make sure that we're sharing our stories and so that we can continue to learn from each other."

I think that is personally why you feel so connected to St. Lawrence is you've dedicated so much time when, from the moment you stepped on campus as a student to now to make sure that those experiences become a little more seamless for those students. Can you speak a little bit to, did you experience what I'm trying to communicate a little bit on campus where you kind of felt like the international students were their own group on campus and were maybe sometimes having a hard time getting domestic students to engage with I House or with any of the other programming that you put on?

Arturs:   Yeah. Well I think that when we are at college, we are very young adults. We think we're adults, but we are young adults. And I realize it now much more clearly. So that's I think one aspect. So all of us are in a new situation with a lot of schoolwork, with different schedules and interests and clubs and organizations that we take part in and we're trying to understand what we really are interested in. So we try different activities. And also, as part of this, is also when we try to find like-minded people or similar people that we think are similar.

Look like us, come from the same region like us, same country, maybe from a same setting, urban or rural setting and kind of clicking that way. And I've experienced my own ways of maybe clicking more with somebody or less finding out. And so of course I was with the International Student Community because I was an international student. But I would oftentimes, especially when I would go abroad with St. Lawrence and I went abroad with the Francophone studies program to Canada, France, and Senegal. Senegal being the best part of it, I must say, please nobody come at me.

And then Kenya and Tanzania and when I was abroad, when I was abroad for the France program, I was the only American, no, no, sorry, the only non-American student. And I was constantly kind of put in a group with Americans. So I felt how it was to be treated like an American even though I wasn't, until I open my mouth and they hear my accent and they're like, "Oh, where are you from? You're not an American." But my white skin makes people think, making assumptions. And same thing in Kenya, people thought constantly, I was an American, I would just tell them I was a European. And so my point being that some of these groupings will happen more or less naturally and that's kind of to be expected. So some of these groups will happen, these affiliation groups will happen, but I think that I House has tried to provide the opportunity for students to come in and engage with International Student Community. Tea time being the perfect example where an American student will come along and be like, "Oh yeah, it's just a tea time. There's nothing scary about that." And then you engage with students.

I remember when I was trying to come to terms with my sexuality and being afraid to go to the Saga House or the Pink Triangle House back in the day and kind of thinking, "Oh my goodness." And they're being very worried about entering that space. And maybe it's a similar situation for different students entering these new spaces, whatever that new space is. College is a new space. And so that's why we see, "Oh, you look like me, you act like me, let's stick together." But then more and more college challenges you to speak to students from different backgrounds. And I always loved the professors who would challenge you no matter what position or opinion you held. And I remember there was a wonderful American politics teacher, Darby Morso, who sadly also passed away, she was such an excellent teacher that to this day, I have no idea what her political affiliation is, which is amazing.

Beth:   Absolutely.

Arturs:   Which is amazing because she made it difficult in terms of asking intellectual really difficult questions to whatever side you were presenting. International side, US, liberal or conservative or anything in between or beyond. And so that's what I loved about St. Lawrence. It's a space, it's new, it's challenging, it can be intimidating, but I think it's like being thrown into water and you quickly learn to swim and then you're a master swimmer by the time you're done and you love it and you want to go back to it.

Beth:   I absolutely agree with that. And I think that one of the best parts of what you're saying is this idea that I think it's only natural for us to kind of gravitate to people that we identify with. But the beauty of a place like St. Lawrence, in particular for college, is that it's really about engaging with people who are different from you and learning to expand your global perspectives, your ability to critically analyze from different perspectives, those that you may not have experienced and learn how to listen respectfully to those other opinions or those different experiences and such yourself. I want to go back because you've now mentioned tea time a few times, and could you explain for those that don't know what tea time is, what goes on at tea time?

Arturs:   So I can maybe say what it was and I hope that it's still the same because...

Beth:   Gotcha, that's fair.

Arturs:   Yeah, so it was every Wednesday, but I would say the International House, to ask what time it is these days or what date of the week it is. But it would be just once a week in the evening you show up, there's always tea, there's always mugs, there's sometimes cookies or something else to snack on. And it's just a networking event I would even call it. Now we kind of like, we're used to thinking of networking events as these fancy suit and tie kind of things, but every week there's a international networking event happening on campus actually, if you see it that way and people create new friendships, catch up with their old friends who they already know.

It's just a wonderful study break and I think it just leaves you inspired. Another thing that really left me inspired was the Gospel Christian Worship led by the wonderful, the amazing, the superstar Sean Whitehead, absolutely adore and love her. And I went to the church for four years and I'm still a non-Christian actually, but I absolutely loved it. It was a place of love, acceptance, and peace and it just completely calmed my mind and gave me confidence to proceed with my goals, with my tasks and homework and projects. So there's many spaces on campus that are like that that just make the college experience incredibly wonderful. So.

Beth:   Absolutely. I really, it's so fun because I know that while we did engage with the I House when we were students and a few other activities and such, you and I actually obviously had very different experiences. I was a local north country girl who was going to St. Lawrence and looking around and saying, "Oh, this is not Gouverneur," even though it's 20 minutes away from Gouverneur. "Okay, great." But meanwhile you went halfway across the world for college. We had different social groups, we had different experiences, but it's always wonderful to hear that we found refuge in some of the same places that the Chapel, Kathleen Buckley and Sean Whitehead were people that we could turn to for guidance, for safety, for acceptance that we could turn to I House and tea time, which I loved going to as a student before I lived in I House, I went, oh, I don't know, I think the first time I went was my sophomore year.

I didn't go. My freshman year I didn't know existed. And then sophomore year, I'm trying to remember who it was, it might've been Darrlyn Moorer, I think, from our class who took me. So shout out to Darrlyn, and got a group of us to go. And I just remember, again, growing up in a very homogenous rural area where I didn't have really access to learning from people of different cultures and countries. I just remember walking into that room and instead of feeling intimidated by what I didn't know about each person, I got to connect and learn about who they were and what made us similar, but also be so accepted and understood that I might have some ignorance as I walk in the room. And that was okay, that I was there to connect and learn about other people.

I wasn't there to be put on for a study or, "Okay, now you're going to be quizzed about what do you know about these different countries," for example. And I think because that was such a welcoming environment, that it became a place that if I had a free Wednesday, I would show up. That became kind of a refuge site for me. And I really, really credit the students like yourself and the international coordinators on campus, like Tsewang nowadays for making that environment easy for domestic students to feel like they're also welcome and encourage them to come because it can only help both the international students for feeling like they're truly a part of campus, but can only help expand those global perspectives as well.

Arturs:   Right. Well, I would also add another kind of a layer of the international conversation that we're having. I house and the tea time I think is almost like a pre-orientation for going abroad as well at times. A lot of students who have some interest in going abroad, they kind of start with testing the waters by going to the tea time. Or I would oftentimes meet students who are saying, "Oh, I'm going abroad," or, "I just came from abroad and I want to kind of keep with the feeling of having the international kind of environment." And I think it's also important to remember that maybe some American students feel worried about entering an international space and worried if they're going to be judged for knowing facts or not. The international student community feels very, very worried at the very beginning when they enter the St. Lawrence community. It's academically rigorous, it's international for them as well.

Beth:   Absolutely. Yeah.

Arturs:   So, I think we're all in the same position and that should serve as something that equalizes all of us. And while I'm at the talk about studying abroad, when I was at St. Lawrence, I think it was a bit less than 50% that we're going abroad and the school was really trying to go over 50% and at some point they achieved it very well. And I think it's now over 50%, which I'm extremely happy about because I think St. Laurence is one of the most international colleges of its rate. And I think it's something that the school should be extremely proud and really should highlight constantly.

And the Kenya semester program is a pioneering program of its kind and I absolutely loved it. It was life changing for me. That's another aspect of St. Lawrence that I want to completely highlight is the studying abroad. North country is great, but the winters pretty hard. And if you can spend the winter in Kenya getting an international experience at the UN, for example, like I did, then it's, yeah, it's great.

Beth:   Absolutely.

Arturs:   That's another St. Lawrence opportunity you know, so.

Beth:   Did that open the doors having the experience at the UN for what you wanted to do post-St. Lawrence?

Arturs:   Yeah, so weirdly, when I was at the Kenya semester program and I was on my independent study in Tanzania, I was applying for random things and I applied for the UN internship and I got in and they're like, "Oh, can you come almost next week?" And I'm like, "Sorry, no, I'm still in the mountains in the east in Tanzania. I can't." But I did join it right after the independent study and the director of that time continued to help assist me, even though the program was concluding, she was continuing to assist me with the internship and getting a host family for that experience as well.

And I was doing an internship in a communications unit and somehow I continued to gravitate towards that. And when I was starting my job at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs with the Foreign service, a lot of my tasks would be kind of connected with communications. And then when I went from my first posting to Washington DC, my main job was also among others, was communications. And now when I'm in London, that's also kind of one of my main jobs. So I don't know how, but life has continued to push me into that field. I never really started, but people see something in me, I guess, I don't know. And I just constantly end up being the comms guy.

Beth:   Well, I think it's clear, and I hope that those listening also feel this way, that you are a wonderful communicator, that you have an incredible way with words to describe experiences and bring people together. So I think it makes sense that you're in communications for sure, making sure that, especially from an international relations standpoint, this gives people an opportunity to, again, build those bridges. I really see you in my life as one of those people that if I think about those that build bridges and make those connections, you have consistently been that person. If I look through all of my Rolodex of people that I knew at St. Lawrence. So I think it makes a lot of sense, Arturs

Arturs:   Thank you.

Beth:   Absolutely. So can you talk a little bit about your job now? So obviously we know that you're in London and you're working in communications and you're working at the Embassy? The Latvian Embassy?

Arturs:   So maybe just to go back a bit, I graduated in St. Lawrence and then I thought I'm going to take a short break of three or so years to go to grad school. It ended up being nine years. Then I entered grad school, actually did an international affairs degree at the Fletcher School of Flow and Diplomacy at Tufts University in Boston as well. And it's been very useful for my job. And then when I left St. Lawrence, I lived in Ogdensburg for a little bit and I was actually helping the city of Ogdensburg with energy and sustainability and climate change projects. And I also helped the St. Lawrence County with the same kind of tasks. And then I moved back, to Latvia and I worked with an international translation company. I wasn't doing any translation myself, but I was leading a team of six translators, Swedish translators.

So they were translating European Union documents into Swedish. So it was a management job. And then I've always had the interest in international affairs. I've always been reading newspapers since I was a little kid. And then there were job openings for foreign service. I joined it in 2013. I've been with the Foreign Service ever since. And I was covering the Nordic Baltic region, which is kind of the closest neighborhood of Latvia. And the corporation within that region is extremely active. We were coordinating the Nordic Baltic Eight, as we call it, eight countries format in 2016. And I counted over 50 meetings of various levels that we just had to coordinate in the single calendar for that year. And that's all the way from... Starts from experts and directors of various matters to prime ministers and foreign ministers, for example. So it's our closest neighborhood and a group of like-minded countries that also share membership in various organizations as such as NATO, EU, and so on.

And then I passed my foreign service exam, which you passed after you've worked there in the ministry for a while. And then I was eligible for postings abroad. And again, actually I was encouraged by my colleagues, I wasn't really seeking that because they saw there was a posting advertised for Washington DC and I thought, "Oh, I've been to, I've lived in the US before, maybe I should do something more exciting, maybe start with a hardship post or something like that." I applied anyways and I got it and I had really three amazing years in Washington DC and I was implementing the public diplomacy program for the centennial celebrations of Latvia in 2018. So we celebrate 100 years since the establishment of Latvia, and we had a lot of cultural projects all over the US in cooperation with the American Latvian community. They're wonderful and just to highlight one of the projects, which was amazing, which wasn't all my doing, there was other people involved, but I assisted in a small way, which was the lighting up of the Niagara Falls in the colors of the Latvian flag.

Beth:   Oh wow.

Arturs:   

The dark red and white and the Latvian flag is one of the oldest in Europe, and it's just extremely beautiful. The falls looked amazing. And so that was done for the Latvia 100 celebration, so I was very proud of that moment to see it happen. So just all kinds of activities. Different places were lit up in the Latvian flag all over the US, but there were conferences, events, concerts, the receptions, you name it. So that was really, really exciting. And then happened to be posted again to London. And here I work with communications as well, but there's another huge file which is relations with the Latvian diaspora. And the LA diaspora is... The largest one abroad is here in the UK, so 40% of all Latvians who live abroad live in the UK.

Beth:   Oh, wow.

Arturs:   It's the whole spectrum of society, different people from different walks of life, and they have many, many smaller regional organizations, folk dance and folk singing groups. They have clubs for a table game, I guess it's called. It's similar to pool or billiards, it's called Nobuss, N-O-B-U-S-S. It's a Latvian created game actually from the 1920s. So we have a lot of those clubs and then we cooperate with different groups of these diaspora with the Latvian business people. We recently had a networking reception for researchers and students. So it's an extremely busy agenda and they are really amazing, hardworking people. They organize a lot of events and they kind of keep the Latvian community life very active, and we are just engaged as an embassy as much as we can to support their work and take part and really help the community thrive here.

Beth:   That's really fascinating for me to hear because I guess for myself, I didn't realize that a lot of what an ambassador could do is also to make sure that the culture and traditions of your home country are alive in these new countries, in these other countries. So in the UK and making sure that there are festivals and cultural events and celebrations, and that to me, is really, really exciting to hear about. I always just kind of figure, "Okay, he is a diplomat or an ambassador, so he's dealing mostly with people from other countries. Informing them about Latvia." So I didn't recognize that you're actually doing a lot of work for people from your own country.

Arturs:   True. But I think it's, to clarify, we have several diplomats and they cover various areas.

Beth:   That makes sense.

Arturs:   And the ambassador herself, she covers everything, and that's the dialogue with the British institutions and officials. And we have different corporation in different areas, let's say scientific science policy or economic policy, trade policy, and so on. So different diplomats cover different subtopics, and we coordinate very closely with our EU member states. Unfortunately, the UK is no longer an EU member state, it's the third country to leave the European Union, but the European Union member states continue to work very closely in all of the capitals where we're represented. Coordinating, having meetings together, inviting guest speakers, experts to address us, to talk to us. So it's a big wonderful European family here in London as well. And I just happen to be the diplomat, all of the embassy staff engage with the diaspora, but I happen to be the one kind of keeping the notes for everything. Yes.

Beth:   That's really fantastic. Is there something that you should take this opportunity to explain to our listeners either about international relations in this current world that you would like to just impart that knowledge on, or specifically about the work that you are doing in the UK that we haven't already covered?

Arturs:   Well, I think that I'm going to go and go ahead and just say that I would really quite seriously welcome everyone to come to Latvia. I think it's a beautiful northern European country, and to believe it, you have to see it kind of a experience. It has a lot to offer in terms of nature, just half of the country is covered in forests. It's actually larger than people think. It's actually a mid-sized country in Europe. It just has a smaller population than many other European countries. The capital, Riga is actually the Art Nouveau capital of the world. So the most Art Nouveau architecture you can see...

Beth:   Wow.

Arturs:   In Riga. And whenever you go to Riga, we always tell people to look up because if you look down, you just see cobble stone, but when you look up, you see all of the Art Nouveau. We have to watch out otherwise you run into things because you constantly looking after the beautiful buildings and Latvia has wonderful food. A lot of it is just kind of organic by default, let's say. It doesn't have to even be labeled that way it's just organic by default, and it's delicious and nutritious, and it's just so many opportunities. One thing to highlight as well, we just concluded the London Baltic Film Festival. We brought two Latvian feature films to London, and it's just another thing to highlight about Latvia is the cinema culture and industry is so advanced. We have a great national opera and ballet that's regionally known. I could go on and on just give...

Beth:   I like it. This is turning into a tourist video, which I'm here for. This is exactly what we would love to...

Arturs:   Yeah, just find me on LinkedIn and ask me questions about Latvia or I'll just give you, like if you need a tour somewhere, I'll connect you to our tour guide very quickly.

Beth:   There you go. Yeah.

Arturs:   Latvia is small and very connected. We know each other very well, so if you need something, everything's kind of a phone call away, and if you want to help an international friend, you'll always have a counterpart in Latvia to kind of take it from there for you.

Beth:   I love that so much because again, I really feel like that draws back to this whole St. Lawrence community.

Arturs:   Yes, absolutely.

Beth:   Where we are all kind of interconnected in that way.

Arturs:   Definitely very good connection you make between those two. Yeah, I would definitely compare that in the same way. Yeah, the sense of community, yes.

Beth:   Absolutely. And I think that, again, it makes sense to me after having this discussion with you, why you still feel so connected to St. Lawrence if you were growing up in such a country where you have that sense of community. Absolutely. Arturs, is there anything else that I haven't asked you that you would like to talk about? Whether it was about your St. Lawrence experience, your work now, your involve... We didn't really talk about your involvement with Link, but I do want to just thank you because I do think that the LINC Mentorship Program is a really wonderful way for students to connect with somebody who is either in the field that they're interested in or has a similar, potentially had a similar student experience. So the fact that you've had that mentorship with other international students I think is also something that's really fantastic.

Arturs:   Yeah. I'm happy to quickly talk about Link as well. So when I was invited to take part in the program, I think it was like eight or so years ago, it was, I thought, "Oh, it's just going to be reviewing the resumes and cover letters." But it's really about creating these relationships with doing the alumni and the students. We get to keep in touch with the school and they get to get a glimpse into what is the life in so-called real world? How do you fare after graduation? What I noticed with each one of the students that I've had is that there's a barrier, a taller or smaller for some, of confidence. They don't sometimes believe it themselves at the very beginning. They don't think that their resume is long enough, advanced enough, that they're getting it right with the cover letter, for example, or with the job search or with networking or interview skills.

And I think my job, 90% of the time, has been just to really tell them, "You're doing a great job. You really are. And you should have that confidence in yourself because you wouldn't be at St. Lawrence if you were just not an excellent student. Just the fact you're at St. Lawrence, that really is a sign of quality of the kind of person and student you are and continue to be." And so I think I really suggest all of the students to really try to compete for those slots with Link mentors. I don't think that all of the students are given one, even if they want to, I'm not sure. I hope I'm wrong with this.

What I would say is that there's different kind of mentor experiences. I think generally everyone comes out of it really having enriched themselves in different ways. The students that I've mentored, just to see them enter PhD programs, writing papers, being interviewed themselves in media is just, it's incredible because you'll feel like, "Wow, I was part of their St. Lawrence experience in a special way."

Beth:   Absolutely, yeah.

Arturs:   And that's, for me personally, worth more than a check, honestly.

Beth:   Yeah.

Arturs:   You should contribute. If you're able to.

Beth:   You should contribute, yeah, of course, of course. No, I definitely agree with you. I think the LINC Mentorship program is definitely a unique program to St. Lawrence. It's one that other schools have started to take a note of and are trying to implement in their own schools as well. We have expanded it over the past few years to have way more mentors and spots available. It used to be only really available for sophomores, and we're expanding that out to juniors as well, especially with the effects of the COVID Pandemic, there's a lot of students who when they started out either, they really couldn't engage with a lot of programs on campus given the pandemic, so they kind of lost out on these support opportunities. So we're trying to make sure that students, especially who are in the middle of their college career, have this mentorship opportunity.

And when this podcast comes out in January, this will be around the time that we'll be looking for more people to become Link mentors. So if you are somebody who's looking to make a difference, specifically working one-on-one with a student, feel free to email myself. You can email me at ecdixon, D-I-X-O-N, at stlawu.edu, and I will get you in touch, we'll get you going. But Artours is just one of our many wonderful link mentors who have had that ability to just be able to engage with those students.

Arturs:   Well, let me just say that soon I'll be ending the mentorship relationship with the current to the active mentorship relationship. Now, I'm actually looking for a new mentee, but the thing is that I don't run the recruitment process. So you have to go through the center of career excellence and they'll recruit the student for me.

Beth:   Exactly.

Arturs:   But I really encourage you to apply, and I hope I'm the lucky one to have one of the listeners be the mentee for me next year.

Beth:   It would be fantastic to have that. That would be a pretty great connection. Arturs, I want to thank you so much for taking the time, again with the time difference with you being in Europe. Thank you so much for joining us today and telling us a little bit about your experience, both as an international student when you were at St. Lawrence, and what you've done with that experience afterwards and a career of international relations and your continued connections with St. Lawrence. We really appreciate all that you do for the St. Lawrence community and for the impacts that you're making on the world.

Arturs:   Thank you, Beth. It's an honor.

Beth:   Of course.

[Music Plays]

Beth:   And there we have it. Just another incredible interview. I had such a great time catching up with Arturs. We had the opportunity to live in I House when I returned back from being in London, and I really got to see and get to know him a little bit better, but I got to really see him shine in a leadership role among not only just the international students on campus, but among so many of my other classmates and peers. Arturs has continued that through his service back to St. Lawrence and is an exciting person for so many people who are interested in international relations to connect with. I know that I've sent quite a few students his way in the past, and I know that they won't be the last ones. I'm also really interested to hear some other Scarlet and Brown stories from our international alum.

So if anybody has a story that you would like to share, please feel free to email us at connect@stlawu.edu. Again, that's connect@stlawu.edu. Actually, Arturs got in touch with us and let us know. "Hey, it would be really fascinating to have an international student alum perspective on the podcast." And we kind of looked around at each other as a podcast production group and said, "We got to have him." I mean, if you're going to have somebody, why not have Arturs? So, I'm so excited for the doors that this will open for more stories, so I cannot wait to have another international student alum on the podcast.

Again, I want to thank Arturs for taking some time, you know, with a five-hour difference, he's in London, we're here in New York. It's a little bit more challenging to schedule, but I want to thank him again for taking the time out of his busy schedule to chat a little bit about St. Lawrence and his career. And until next time, I hope that you all have a safe and wonderful New Year and kickoff 2023, the Scarlet and Brown way. 

[Music plays over credits]

Beth:   Scarlet and Brown Stories is produced and edited by Amanda Brewer, Beth Dixon, Megan Fry Dozier and Dennis Morreale. Our music was written by Christopher Watts, inspired by Eugene Wright, class of 1949. Subscribe to Scarlet and Brown Stories, on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Consider leaving us a rating review as well. If you have a story to submit to us, you can email us at connect@stlawu.edu.

[Music ends]

[Music Plays]

Beth:   Hello everybody, and welcome back to another edition of Scarlet & Brown Stories, the Laurentian podcast where we break down interviews with faculty, staff, alumni, parents, friends, and anybody else who calls themselves Laurentian, to figure out what does it mean to have a Scarlet and Brown story?

I am your host, Beth Dixon, and I am so excited to be joined once again by my co-host, Dennis Morreale, and we have a wonderful interview this month to celebrate not only the Christmas season with a couple who own a small business, but Dennis, it's our first time having a Laurentian couple on the podcast.

Dennis:   That's right. This one I feel like has really got it all. All the things that I love. It's got a love story. It's got St. Lawrence, it's got beer, it's got entrepreneurship and initiative. It's just a very exciting, as you said, couple coming up to hear about how they met. And as I know that a lot of St. Lawrence couples are certainly out there. So excited to have one finally on the podcast.

Beth:   Definitely. A lot of people find their life partners here at St. Lawrence. Some people find their business partners, and we're excited to have a couple who kind of found both together, especially within the last couple of years since the pandemic began. We are talking with Jack and Emily Droppa, classes of '11 and '09 respectfully, and they are out of Burlington, Vermont, and they have a brewery that they opened during the pandemic, which was not their plan, but we're excited to chat a little bit about them. Not only like you said about their love story, but also a little bit about their small business.

And as it is the holiday season, we also just want to quickly shout out all the wonderful small businesses and entrepreneurs that we have in Laurentian community. So please look at the show notes for this episode so that you can be linked to our small business guide if you're looking for a present for somebody in your life during this holiday season and you'd like to support a Laurentian.

So without any further ado, let's kick it off to the interview. 
 
[Music Plays]

Beth:   Well, welcome on in everybody. We are here with Jack and Emily Droppa, who are class of '09 and '11. 2009, 2011. We're very excited to chat with them, not only because this is the first time we actually have a Laurentian couple here together, but because we're excited to highlight two entrepreneurs who are in the Laurentian community, like so many others that have their own small businesses and are doing wonderful things in their community. So Jack and Emily, welcome to the Scarlet and Brown Stories podcast, and we're so excited to have you.

Jack:   Thank you. It's great to be here. Thanks for having us.

Beth:   Before we get going, one of the things that we like to always discuss and talk about is what is your St. Lawrence story? So can you put yourself back in the shoes of right before you moved into St. Lawrence? What are your feelings? What are you thinking that your St Lawrence experience is going to be like? And did it live up to your expectations?

Emily:   You want me to go first?

Jack:   Yeah, you start.

Emily:   Well, I'm from Ogdensburg, so only about 20 minutes from Canton. So growing up in Ogdensburg, we always knew there was this university in Canton, and we always would go Christmas shopping at the bookstore. And so growing up, I always had St. Lawrence hoodies. I was wearing them all the time, and I guess my parents never really knew that I wanted to go there. But when I was in high school and we started talking about colleges and everything, I was like, "Oh, I'm going to St. Lawrence." And my parents were like, "Oh."

Dennis:   Did you have friends who went ahead of you?

Emily:   No, not really. Not really. I mean, my mom's dad actually, so my grandpa actually went there to get his masters, and my uncle, my mom's brother also got his masters there, but I don't really think that was part of even why I was wanting to go there. I just knew it was a great university and it was really close. So anyways, growing up, I always wanted to go there. And then when my parents asked me where I wanted to go, and I said, "St. Lawrence," they were kind of like, "You can't go to St. Lawrence. It's really expensive."

And I was like, "Oh, well, they have this Augsbury scholarship thing. I'll apply for it. And I ended up getting it, and that's one of the big reasons I was actually able to go there. So it was really amazing. Yeah, I would definitely say that it lived up to my expectations. I mean, I didn't really know exactly what to expect because like I said, I grew up in this really small town, and then I go to college only 20 minutes away. But I mean, I met Jack there and I met my best friend there who she actually grew up in Pierrepont, New York.

Dennis:   Wow.

Beth:   I can identify with this as a fellow north country. I'm from Gouverneur.

Emily:   Oh yeah, exactly.

Beth:   Yeah. So I totally get it. And all of my really good friends ended up being people from Norwood and Potsdam, these places where I was like... We have all these wonderful people from all over the world. And all a sudden the people I ended up clicking with the most were the people from the north country. So good to see another fellow North country alum here too. What about you, Jack? What was your experience getting to St. Lawrence like, and did it live up to your expectations?

Jack:   So yeah, I grew up in Maryland, and then I went to high school in Maryland, and then I did a PG year at a prep school in Jersey. And then I went to St. Lawrence and prep school in Jersey was kind of like 13th grade for people that don't know PG or most people do it for sports or something like that. I did it so that I could hopefully get into a better college because I wasn't quite the best student in high school.

And so I was living away from home and seeing all my friends go off to college, and I'm kind of going back to high school. I was in this limbo thing, but the school that I went to in Jersey was Lawrenceville, and it was awesome. I loved it. I wish I had gone for four years just with the community and the people that I met and the campus. It was awesome. And I felt at home there. And then the college counselor I had at Lawrenceville was fantastic, and she suggested St. Lawrence, I go take a look at St. Lawrence University. And when every time I tell the story, people get confused that I went to a high school named Lawrenceville and then St. Lawrence.

Dennis:   Right. Naturally. Yeah.

Jack:   Anyway, so I remember... I believe it was March that I went to visit St. Lawrence and my dad and I fly into Syracuse, drive up, pull into Canton, there's snow on the ground. It's sunny outside, it's like 40 degrees. There's people wearing hoodies, shorts, and flip flops. And we get out of the car and I look around and I was like this is... I had that same feeling that I did when I got to Lawrenceville, that it was like this is where I wanted to be.

The campus was beautiful. People walking around in shorts and flip flops with there's snow on the ground, and it felt like home. And that feeling really never left. And I met my wife there, I met my best friends there, people in our wedding. Most of our wedding party went to St. Lawrence.

Emily:   A lot of them.

Jack:   And it was such a fantastic experience and I couldn't have imagined anywhere else. And like I said, just that feeling. And my friends had talked about it high school, they got to a school and they just got this feeling this is where they wanted to be. And I got that feeling when I was at Lawrenceville and I got that feeling at St. Lawrence.

Emily:   And you did early decision too-

Jack:    Oh, I did. Yes, I did.

Emily:   We both did early decision.

Dennis:   Oh, very nice. Yeah.

Beth:   And that makes sense too, because back then, I'm assuming, not to age us a little bit, but did you also have to fill out a paper application for college…

Dennis:   I did, yeah.

Beth:   Oh, Yeah. I remember my mom used to make me write out the entire application on lined paper over top of where it would've been as practice and then fill it out. It was very tedious. The students today don't know the struggles that we had with handwritten paper applications.

Dennis:   So I'm wondering about, I want to hear about how you guys met. Was it early? So naturally it would've been at the earliest it could have been, would've been Emily your junior year, but I assume it was not that first week or anything. So-

Emily:   It was actually Jack’s first night on campus.

Dennis:   Yeah. Right.

Beth:   Was it really?

Emily:   Mm-hmm.

Beth:   That's amazing.

Dennis:   That's incredible. So wow, that supersedes the questions I was going to ask about. This is so much better than where I thought it was going to go. So okay. Take us back and I mean-

Jack:   Sorry to interrupt. So-

Emily:   You start with the pre-trip stuff.

Jack:   Yeah. So I went on a pre-trip. So I was on the rafting pre-trip when I was a freshman. And like I said, I had gone to prep school and I'd already been away from home, living away from home. And I was a year older than the rest of the incoming freshman. One of the pre-trip leaders was a senior, and he was young for his class. He wasn't turning 21 until September of his senior year. And so I was older than most people on the pre-trip, and he was younger than most people in his year, and he and I were fairly close in age.

And so we hit it off and I happened to sit in the front seat of the van that he was driving, put in his van, and he and I just hit it off throughout the pre-trip. So we fast forward, get back to campus, he were like unpacking, and he's like, "Hey, we're having a party at my townhouse tonight if you want to come." "Well, of course I do. I'm a freshman, I have nowhere else to go. I'm sure I can figure out how to get to your townhouse." And I lived in Lee and they were in townhouse 202 and 201. It was the group of best friends that had two townhouse right next to each other. And I was in Lee North, and I could see him from my room. So I'm like, "oh, I know I can get down there easy enough." And I walked in the door, I saw Jason, I was like, "Hey." And he's like, "This is my girlfriend Emily." Not this Emily. 

Beth:   Oh, that was going to get really juicy really quickly if that happened.

Jack:   Oh yeah. Exactly. So Emily Maine is Emily Cullock. [inaudible 00:   11:   09] grew up as best friend.

Emily:   We're best friends.

Jack:   Still best friends.

Dennis:   No kidding. And was she from Ogdensburg as well?

Emily:   She's the one I mentioned from Pierrepont.

Dennis:   Right, okay. That's right.

Beth:   Very cool.

Dennis:   It's coming together here.

Jack:   So I meet Jason and I say hi to Jason. I meet Emily Maine, and I find out later that as I'm meeting Emily Maine, she's like, "I'm going to introduce you to my friend later. And so then later that night I met Emily, and then they couldn't get rid of me at the townhouse, and neither could Emily and whatever it is, 15 years later, here we are.

Dennis:   That's wild.

Beth:   That's incredible. Emily, I need to hear your side of the story on this.

Emily:   I mean that, that's pretty accurate. Obviously I was a junior, so I had a great experience at St. Lawrence my freshman and sophomore year, but I felt like I didn't really find my place until spring of sophomore year. I joined a sorority and I was in KDS, and I met some of my best friends, including Emily Maine. So like I said, I had a good experience freshman and sophomore year. I actually had a boyfriend from my hometown sophomore year, and then we broke up. So I was going back to school as a junior, being like, I'm in a sorority, I'm going to have fun. And I was so excited. And then it was one of my first nights back on campus because I go back early, even though I wasn't really there for a particular reason, I could just go early because the house was open.

Dennis:   Right. Yeah. I remember that.

Emily:   I went early and Maine was like, "Oh, we're going to go to a party at Jason's townhouse tonight." And I was like, "Okay." And I can remember being in that townhouse and them being like, "Oh, this is Jack." And I was like, "Hi." But he was a freshman, and I don't know. That's what happened.

Beth:   That's pretty great.

Dennis:   That's wonderful. And so obviously it worked out, and here you are now running a brewery all these years later. I mean, you didn't know then that you were going to be a brewer, right?

Jack:   No. I mean, not at St. Lawrence, but funny, funny story. I actually started brewing in the townhouses when I was a freshman with all that.

Beth:   Is this at Jason's townhouse?

Jack:   Yes. Not that night. But that would've been... No but-

Beth:   Boy that was such a life-changing night. Not only did meet your future wife, but…

Jack:   So Jason and Chris Printer and Seth Husking, Ben Burdett, Barrett Goodman were all in that townhouse cluster, and they all were brewing beer. And as this freshman that just kept hanging out with them and not leaving, I got into brewing with them and we'd brew beer on the stove in the townhouse and ferment it in the closet and then drink it. And it was awful. However, we were making beer, which was cool. So then that's how got my start brewing was in townhouse 201 and 202, making really, really bad beer.

Beth:   So did you perfect it over the years at St. Lawrence and then say, "Mm, I've got a knack for this." Or did it take some time post St. Lawrence for this to come together?

Jack:   Yeah, it took some time. So the short version of how we got here is started brewing at St. Lawrence on a stove top. I brewed, I found townhouses to brew in when I was a sophomore with some senior friends. I think I did one or two batches on a stove in Dean Eaton when I was a junior. And then senior year we lived off campus, and Emily bought me my first real big kit home brew kit when we were living up by the fire station on Riverside.

Is that Riverside? Yeah, just past the fire station. And so Emily bought me my first home brew kit. And so I was brewing in that house. And then when I graduated, we moved out to Utah for a few years. I was skier patroller out in Utah. Emily was a school counselor, and then we wanted to move back east. Emily wanted to be back closer to her family, so came back east and I knew I didn't want to continue ski patrolling on the east coast because it's very different in terms of what you're doing and skiing conditions and all that. So I went to California and interned with Jason at a brewery that he was running in California.

Beth:   Oh so cool

Jack:   Yep. So Jason taught me how to home brew, and then he taught me how the production, professional side of brewing as well. So I came to Vermont, I was looking for a brewing job. There wasn't really a brewing jobs that would hire me with, even with a little bit of experience. And so I got a job on the Otter Creek packaging line. I was on the packaging line for three months, and then I got moved into the sellers at Otter Creek. I was in the sellers at Otter for a year and a half probably, I think. And then I moved up to the brew deck. I was a brewer at Otter for just over a year, the last nine months as the lead brewer. And then I left Otter, I went to Frost. I was a brewer at Frost for a year. And then this opportunity to open Weird Window presented itself and here we are.

Dennis:   It's very cool. I've got to tell you, your brewing origin story has kind of a Rocky Balboa thing to it, except instead of boxing a piece of meat in a butcher shop, you were brewing on a stove top in Dean Eaton.

Jack:   Exactly.

Dennis:   How about you, Emily? Have you always had an enthusiasm about brewing? Or is that something you guys developed as a couple?

Emily:   Oh, I mean, I wouldn't say we developed it as a couple. I mean, you guys were brewing in the townhouses, but I don't actually ever even remember trying any of that beer. I mean, I must have, but I mean, we were probably just mostly drinking Busch Light. I feel like when we were in Utah though, I did get a little bit more interested in craft beer, and I would help Jack a little bit with his home brewing. We were out in Utah mostly just putting the caps on the bottles and learning a little bit about some of the process. And then I did that when we moved back to Vermont too. And definitely when we moved into Vermont, back to Vermont, I started liking craft beer more. I mean, they've got a great craft scene. And I remember moving here and they have this Vermont, what is it?

Jack:   The brewery passport.

Emily:   It's like a brewery passport.

Dennis:   Oh yeah.

Beth:   Oh cool.

Emily:   It's like a little paper. Now they have an app.

Dennis:   I haven't made it all the way through, but I've gotten a bunch of them.

Emily:   Yeah, exactly. So we started doing that when we moved here. And I did eventually... I feel like I come a long way in my beer tasting palate.

Beth:   So how did Weird Window Brewing come together? I mean, it sounds like there was an opportunity, but how did the two of you decide, "You know what, let's do this together."

Jack:   So we joke that having a brewery, well, we did joke back when we were under construction, that having a brewery was in that three to five-year plan, not the three to five-month plan.

Emily:   I feel like we always were going to open a brewery, but it was more like we weren't really being serious.

Jack:   We were like, one day it'd be great.

Emily:   Yeah, like I'm going to quit my job. I'm going to work in the brewery. It'd be so much fun.

Dennis:   Yeah. that was-

Jack:   And all of a sudden we had a brewery but... So what happened was is January 5th of 2019, I know that date because it's my parents' anniversary. I blew my knee out skiing at Stowe.

Beth:   Oh.

Jack:   And it took a little bit for the MRI and until I knew what was going on with my knee, I couldn't work at Frost in case I slip and fell, hurt myself more stuff like that, just liability. I had to figure out the MRI before [inaudible 00:   20:   04].

And on the way to one of my doctor's appointments, one of the guys I know in the neighborhood that was associated with another brewery here in Vermont, we were talking, he's like, hey, did you hear there is a brewery, one of the breweries in South Burlington at the time was closing and they were selling, it was kind of on the down low. It wasn't officially out there. And I said, no I did not. And I started to do some investigation into it. And that was in probably late January, early February. And we closed on the space in July. Actually, so alumni weekend was KDS's 50th anniversary-

Emily:   Reunion.

Jack:   Reunion. I came, Emily went to Canton, or back to Ogdensburg. I drove back to Burlington with one of our friends who was in KDS as well, to close on that Monday.

Beth:   Oh wow. So it was-

Emily:   Reunion was in June.

Jack:   So it was in June.

Emily:   But remember when we were driving to Reunion, you got that email that it was like, he went for the deal or whatever.

Jack:   Oh yeah. So as we were driving to Reunion, it is like, okay, we agreed that we were going to close on Monday.

Beth:   Wow.

Jack:   So we closed-

Dennis:   That's amazing.

Jack:   In June, started construction in-

Emily:   September.

Jack:   September. I had to sell a bunch of the stuff and break down all the brewery. I sold all his old tanks. And then we had to do some demo. And then we started construction in earnest in September of 2019. If we had hit all of our construction targets, we were targeting to open in March of 2020. So it's a good thing that we missed a few of those construction targets.

Beth:   Absolutely.

Jack:   We were about a week away from completion on March 15th when they shut everything down in Vermont. We finally, we were able to have a smaller crew in there through the first couple months of the pandemic. And then we opened Weird Window. Excuse me. We opened Weird Window in July of 2020 and then closed in November, and then reopened in May, and now we're still there.

Beth:   It's so interesting to hear, especially when you're trying to open a business and Covid hits, I imagine many other people had, were there any delays in construction materials and those kind of things that put a delay for you as well? Or did you kind of luck out that a lot of the things were maybe already ordered and you didn't have to worry about that?

Emily:   The latter.

Jack:   Yeah, the latter. The latter. So we were very lucky that we had no supply chain issues. None of the super inflated cost materials at the time. Steel, wood, et cetera. So in March when everything shut down, we were 95% complete. So it was just finish carpentry, the electrician kind of just putting light covers on and doing some touch up electric work, the plumbers just finishing things up. So we had everything ordered and everything in the building that we needed.

Dennis:   That's huge.

Jack:   And so then we had a little bit of a smaller crew. The electrician was in there with just me and him for the first little bit. And this was March of 2020 when nobody knew what this was anyway, and when we opened in July and eventually opened in July for the first, once we had everything complete, we probably finished construction in April. Mid-April. And I was doing some test brews on the system and everything. So we're like, "Okay, I think we're pretty ready to open. But they keep saying, two weeks, two weeks, two weeks. We'll just hold off. It'll be fine. We don't want to open right now. We'll open and when this is all better."

Emily:   We kept trying to wait it out, until they were going to get rid of masks and everything. Everything was just going to be back to normal. We kept trying to wait to open the brewery and then-

Jack:   And then it was like, well, we can't just keep sitting here. We got to open. And yeah.

Beth:  I have to imagine, did you have to basically run it yourselves or did you have employees already to go? Or how did this all work in the context of COVID?

Jack:   So I mean, the plan was always that we were going to run it ourselves really.

Beth:   Great, yeah.

Jack:   So we ran it by ourselves for the first year exclusively, just us. We had one of our best friends come and help us on some bigger days, but from July, 2020 to May, 2021, it was just us.

Beth:   Wow.

Jack:   I was doing all the brewing and then helping Emily in the tap room. Emily takes care of the tap room, merchandise, events. And so then we were both working tap room shifts.

Emily:   The tap room was closed though.

Jack:   From May, from November to May.

Emily:   Right, but during that time is when we started canning, which we weren't planning on doing that early. And we started doing to go orders and setting up our whole Square online store. All of those things we hadn't really planned on doing right away, but because Covid and because the tap room wasn't open.

Jack:   So then we did get employees and we have some tap room, we have some really great tap room employees now. One of which our first employees, she's a current St. Lawrence student now.

Dennis:   Oh nice.

Jack:   But still, I'm pretty much the only one still in the back brewing all the beer. I have one guy that helps me once a week, a couple times a week, but for the most part it's just me. Well, up until we had our daughter in March, up until then, I was working six to seven days a week.

Beth:   Wow.

Jack:   95 to about 110 hours.

Beth:   Wow.

Jack:   I was told that we had our daughter, that needed to stop. So now I'm not working as much. But still probably 75 hours a week.

Dennis:   Congratulations on that in general, by the way. How has it been? How are you both feeling? How are you sleeping at this point?

Emily:   Pretty good now. I mean-

Jack:   I mean, we kind of joked that we didn't get much sleep before, we had the baby brewery and then we just had a real baby. So the sleep was pretty much the same between the two of them. Just little bit more crying in the middle of the night from one of them.

Dennis:   Right. No, that's great. So I'm curious, just going back a little bit to that point, when it really became clear that this was going to happen, that the brewery was going to... You were going to actually own a brewery, did you in your mind already have a starting all star lineup of beers for that first batch? Or was it to the drawing board?

Jack:   No, so I've been developing, I mean, I've been home brewing now since... So this was 2019, since 2007. So I had 12 years worth of home brew recipes that I had done. And I went from just on the stove syrup or DME or which is dried malt extract or liquid malt extract, is the easy way to do on a stove if you don't have a bunch of grain and stuff, to all grain brewing, which is more along the lines of how professional breweries do it.

And so I've been developing beers and recipes that entire time. I have our basement, basically brewery basement. I have fermenters, I have vessels in my basement that... We have five taps in our house that we can have beer on. So I've been developing recipes and forcing friends to drink beers and trying to refine them for a while.

And so when I knew this was going to happen, I did concentrate on a few of the beers that I thought needed a little bit more work. And then there were a few beers that I had been developing for a long time that I felt pretty comfortable just being able to scale up from where I was in that part of the recipe development. And I mean, still with beers that I brew a lot and or popular tap room I can always find... It's always trying to change some things and try to make it better. I don't ever think that... Any beer that I put out, I can always make better.

Dennis:   What's your flagship?

Jack:   So we don't have a flagship. I try to keep a pretty rotating tap list. I like to have a diverse tap list. We have nine taps available. I try to keep a couple lighter beers, lagers, things like that. And then have, we're in Vermont, so we'll definitely have a few of them as IPAs, double IPAs. I like to have a darker beer year round.

Dennis:   That's talking my language.

Jack:   Yeah. So we have a brown ale that's popular actually. We're canning that tomorrow. And then one of the other beers that is very popular that I do from March or April to now is our Jalapeno Cream Ale, is called Cersei's Wildfire. So that that's been popular as well. We name the-

Beth:   Nice Game of Thrones reference.

Jack:   So I have another beer Game of Thrones reference, that's Rains of Cashmere, because cashmere's hot.

Beth:   I love. What would you say are your favorite flavors, each of your flavors, but that's a probably very simplistic way to ask that. What's your favorite flavor of beer? What would you say is your favorite beer that you make?

Jack:   Favorite beer that I make, probably by the German Pilsner, which is like, it's called Centenarian. So it's called Centenarian because it takes about a hundred days from grain from the day I brew it to the day it's on tap.

Dennis:   Oh, cool.

Jack:   Takes about one hundred days. So I'm very right now, I drink a lot of lagers, lighter beers. I've drank a lot of IPAs. They're good. But I gravitate more towards lagers and lighter beers now just because the nuances and the subtle flavors like they are, they're harder, even though they're a simple beer, they're a hard beer to brew at the same time. And so I like drinking my lagers.

Emily:   And I like the IPAs. So IPA, double IPAs. We name the [inaudible 00:   30:   56] are probably my favorite. It only has citrus grass. It's only 6%, so it's really tasty.

Beth:   I do love a citrus hop, so that sounds right up my alley.

Dennis:   In the summer I can definitely get into that kind of thing. I'm definitely the one who will order the brown or the porter in July. Yeah, I will be sure to be coming to check you guys out next time I'm in town.

Jack:   Perfect. Well, I think we were at Reunion this past year and I think we'll be back at Reunion this next year on the quad with some beers. So if you're there, I'll make sure to bring the brown for you that I made.

Dennis:   Yeah, very nice.

Beth:   Oh, awesome. I'm just definitely going to... I wasn't able to go to Reunion this past year, so now I'm already looking forward to going and staffing the quad. That's what I'm going to ask for. That's great.

Jack:   Perfect, there you go.

Beth:   So if you had any advice for either other or alums who are looking to potentially start their own business, or to students who may be listening, who are looking for, do you have any advice for them?

Jack:   Don't. Just kidding.

Don't do it in the middle of a pandemic. That I would definitely say that. No, I mean, if you want to do it, you got to go for it. It might work out for you and it might not, but if you have a good idea and you believe in yourself and there's people that will support you, you got to go for what makes you happy. I mean, like I said, I work insane hours. I think at one point last fall I did something stupid like 51 days straight at the brewery.

Beth:   Oh my goodness.

Jack:   And it's exhausting. But I was working for myself and that's what is awesome. That's the dream. It working hard, but I get to do something I love every day.

Emily:   Find something you're passionate about.

Jack:   Exactly. And I know that's super cliche, but it's like, "Go find something you're passionate about. You never work a day in your life." Well, you'll work and you'll work hard at it, but it's working seven days a week from four in the morning till nine o'clock at night when you're doing it for yourself feels different than when you're doing it for somebody else. And if you're passionate about it and if it's something that you want to do and you believe in yourself, then it's still work. But at least hopefully you enjoy it.

Beth:   Absolutely.

Dennis:   I don't think we're going to have a better spot to call it a night than that. But before we do, where can people find you and where can they look you up or follow you or, I know I'm going, like I said, definitely going to want to stop in next time I'm in Burlington, but maybe I want to follow you on Instagram or something of that nature.

Emily:   Yeah, we're on Instagram, it's just Weird Window Brewing. Facebook is just Weird Window Brewing. Our website is WeirdWindowBrewing.com.

Dennis:   Very nice.

Emily:   We're in South Burlington on Ethan Allen Drive.

Jack:   We're right next to the airport, so if you ever fly into Burlington, you can get your car and we're about five minutes away from the runway. So there you go.

Emily:   And we're also like five minutes off route nine, so you're going-

Beth:   I was just going to say, that's such a good traffic area then. So there's no excuses. If you're in the Burlington area, you got to check them out. Come on everyone.

Jack:   If you're a student that's driving from St. Lawrence to Boston, you know, got to come across and come down on 89, so you might as well stop in for a beer.

Beth:   That's right.

Jack:   As long as you're 21.

Beth:   As long as you're 21 and you're not driving, or at least you're just picking up cans to then drink at another time. Those kind of things. Yes, yes. We're going to all put all the safe stuff out there. Well, Jack and Emily, thank you both so much for joining us. It was so nice to get to know you and your story as a St. Lawrence couple, as well as some... What do you call yourselves? A brewer, is that the right way to say?

Jack:   A brewer.

Beth:   Okay. Yeah, brewer extraordinaires, we'll say. Well, thank you both for joining us and we hope that everyone here has a wonderful holiday season.

[Music Plays]

Dennis:   And there you have it folks, Jack and Emily Droppa. If you find yourself in the Burlington area or anywhere even close, highly recommend going. Check out Weird Window Brewing, try out some things in the tasting room and maybe bring something back for your Christmas gatherings this coming holiday season.

Beth:   Yeah, I think that some of the beers sounded so interesting. I've really become kind of a beer connoisseur. Not really. I shouldn't say connoisseur. That's sounds like I'm an expert. I'm certainly not, but I've definitely tried-

Dennis:   An enthusiast.

Beth:   An enthusiast. I like that.

Dennis:   I think we can both call ourselves enthusiasts.

Beth:   Here we go. So being able to not only support a Laurentian couple, but also engage in my enthusiasm for beer, I think would be a lot of fun. It was so cool to hear about their love story. I had no idea. When you joked that you had... Oh, so you met Jack on his first night on campus and then that was true that really caught me off guard.

Dennis:   Not where I thought that was going. I know. Well, that's great about getting people on here. You never know, as Dano would say.

Beth:   It's so true.

Dennis:   So if you're out there and you've got a great Laurentian love story, get in touch. And maybe we'll have you on the podcast sometime.

Beth:   Oh my gosh. We should do that. That should be our annual Valentine's Day podcast.

Dennis:   Absolutely.

Beth:   Or something like that. So yes, please do be in touch if you have a great Laurentian story or if you know anybody who does, you can connect with us at connect@stlawu.edu and feel free to send those connections and stories there.

We will be back next month in 2023. Hard to believe that we're entering a whole other new year, but I guess that's how the calendar works. And we are so excited to have another wonderful interview joining us next month with another just amazing Laurentian. Until then, we'll see you next time.

[Music plays over credits]

Beth: Scarlet and Brown Stories is produced and edited by Amanda Brewer, Beth Dixon, Megan Fry Dozier and Dennis Morreale. Our music was written by Christopher Watts, inspired by Eugene Wright, class of 1949. Subscribe to Scarlet and Brown stories on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Consider leaving us a rating review as well. If you have a story to submit to us, you can email us at connect@stlawu.edu.

[Music Ends]

[Theme Music]

Beth:  Hello Laurentian's and welcome back to another edition of Scarlet & Brown Stories. The Laurentian Podcast will re-interview various different alumni, parents, faculty, and staff to hear about their Scarlet & Brown story.

I'm your host, Beth Dixon, and this month we have an incredible interview with somebody who I consider to be a dear friend, a classmate, and also a colleague on campus. We will be chatting with Lindsay Malcolm, class of 2010, who is currently the executive director of admissions.

We're going to ask her a little bit about what it means to work in college admissions specifically at St. Lawrence University, as well as some of the aspects that make her such a strong Laurentian. So without any further adieu, let's get into my interview with Lindsay Malcolm.

[Music plays and ends]

Beth:  Hello everyone. We are here with Lyndsay Malcolm, class of 2010, and also the executive director of admissions here at St. Lawrence University. Lyndsay and I actually go way back. Not only are we classmates from the great class of 2010, but we also were admissions interns together in the summer of 2009, right before our senior year.

So Lyndsay set herself up well for our career in higher education, but especially a career in St. Lawrence University's admissions office. So I want to welcome on in Lyndsay. How are you doing today?

Lyndsay:  Hey, thanks for having me, Beth. I'm great. It's a beautiful day in Canton. It still feels like a little bit of summer, but fall is creeping in. The weekend is here, so it's good.

Beth:  Great. And just to reiterate this again, we are going to be dropping this podcast in November, but we're actually recording this in September. We have a pretty busy fall coming up ahead and I know admissions is very busy in the fall.

So that kind of leads me to my first question with you. I think you have so many different constituencies within the St. Lawrence community. You're an alum, you had family who have come to St. Lawrence, but you're also an employee, used to be a remote employee, and I think admissions in and of itself is something that a lot of people within the Urian community want to learn a little bit more about. So how do you explain to people who don't know much about the world of college admissions, what admissions entails?

Lyndsay:  Yeah. Well first of all, thanks for having me. I'm very excited as a fan of the podcast to be invited on is a real honor. So I just wanted to say thank you so much.

Beth:  We're so happy to have you.

Lyndsay:  Well, admissions is one of these career fields where you don't grow up as a 7, 8, 9, 10, 11-year-old and think like, I'm going to be an admission's counselor, right? Or I'm going to go into higher ed. And so my St. Lawrence experience as a student really shaped where I was headed in my career field, not really knowing until my senior year and we had done the senior internship together with Terry Cowdry and then realized, this is cool. I guess people do this as a career. I'll go on and get my master's. And in my master's program is where I really learned that admissions in a basic sense is sales.

Beth:  It very much is.

Lyndsay:  We have a product that people are interested in, that we are trying to sell and the nuance of what we do is education. And so people can't really look at the St. Lawrence experience in a little box on a shelf and go, "That one looks good, I'll take it."

So much of what we do really requires a skill set. It's more than just selling a product. So I think of my job as a storyteller, as an educator, as a listener. We do a lot of listening, and making sure that the product that you are interested in is one that you believe in, one that you would be happy experiencing for a long period of time. It's not a one-time use type of product. And then making sure that the students and families that are interested understand the benefits of investing in the higher ed college experience, especially small liberal arts, which often gets a bad rap in the media.

So at the core of what we do is sales, but in a very nuanced educational way. And at St. Lawrence, our experience is so much more than just the classes that you take or the major that you're declaring in. It is about those experiences outside of the classroom, the people that you meet, the study abroad experiences that you have. And that requires an additional level of abilities rather than just saying, "Here's my product, do you want to buy it at this price?" If that makes sense?

Beth:  Well yeah, and I think that does make a lot of sense in having started my career as well in the admissions world. I moved to the other part of sales, which is fundraising for the university. And I often think about this and those of us on the podcast production team, were thinking about this before of, is there a secret sauce of what makes a Laurentian? Because you're talking about all these wonderful ways of selling the school, but what about who's buying the product? Who's coming here? Is there a way that you're making the class of everybody who is interested in the university? Is there a secret sauce to those students?

Lyndsay:  Yeah, it's one of our most popular questions is, do you think I'm a good fit or who is a good fit for the St. Lawrence experience? Because while we are very similar to dozens and maybe hundreds of other college experiences in this country, there are some things that set us apart.

Beth:  Absolutely.

Lyndsay:  In addition to being small, we are incredibly rural. We are close to the Canadian border, which blows people's minds. It's residential. All of our students are living right here. And so this question becomes even more important to those who are making up the sauce. And so I often reply back with, "It's not necessarily who's a good fit, but who's not a good fit." So right off the bat, something that would sour the sauce would be a student who wants an urban experience. They just know they want that cosmopolitan or metropolitan experience.

They're either from a rural place in their high school or they grew up in a rural area and they just want a total change of pace. Out of the gate you are not going to thrive at St. Lawrence if you just know that that's what you want. And then students who are, I think, hyper focused on an academic goal. So I want to go to nursing school and I want to do it in five years and I want this type of curriculum. They're very regimented and that's great, but our experience is not that.

And so the students who are a good fit are motivated, again, a little bit more nuanced.

Beth:  Right.

Lyndsay:  Things that we would pick out working with them as juniors into their senior year, motivated in their academics, their extracurriculars, they're driven. They're not afraid to try new things and then embrace the community as we are.

And I think that's really important and making sure that it's one thing to believe it and understand it and then come here, you really have to give it that chance to work. And so I think students who embrace what we are and who we are, are the ones that really add to the recipe and make it interesting. Because once they get here, they're going, "Oh, you don't have this. Well, let's start Model UN. Or mental health and wellness is super important. We're seeing that wave really crusting right now. Great, let's do something about it. So it's not who can add to it. And we're not looking for any specific pieces, rather who are you as a person? What are the characteristics that you bring to our community?

Beth:  Also, one thing that I always thought was very interesting is the emphasis that we put on, like you were saying, working with students, it's it there's a little bit of counseling and mentorship that go along with this form of sales that you were working with students to make sure that this is a good fit for them because we want what's best for students at the end of the day. And I always say that the students who show that demonstrated interest, those that are coming to admissions events and reaching out to counselors or going to college fairs when St. Lawrence is going to be in the area or meeting with counselors are showing that engagement from the get-go. Would you agree that that is an important component to prospective students and your, I guess it's an assessment, of what their fit could be?

Lyndsay:  Absolutely. There's a reason why a third of our class every year is early decision. The students who have identified what it is about St. Lawrence that they like, either an academic program, oftentimes it's an athletic experience or a coach that they've connected with or a family member or their local postmaster is a alum.

We hear all sorts of crazy stories of how they get connected. But absolutely, there're lots of opportunities to engage with us and to really get to know who we are before you have to make any type of commitment. And I will be the first to admit to a student or a family when the signs and flags are going up that maybe we're not a good fit.

So I very much see my job as a counselor and educator to say, "This is what we can offer you and these are all the ways that you can choose to engage with us," and reciprocate back kind of this relationship.

But if that reciprocation is not going to benefit the student or the student is kind of showing signs of interest elsewhere, I think it's part of my job to say, "I don't think this is going to be a good fit for you." Because ultimately that's what is important for the community as current students-

Beth:  Right.

Lyndsay:  ... Is making sure that the students who come really want to be here and will add value into the experience.

It would be like me going out on the road and saying, "Yeah, we have this beautiful Olympic pool complex for swimming and diving." And then students getting here and being like, Where's the pool? We have a facility, but we have to make sure that how we market and sell our experience is accurate in a market and time when you go to some high schools and you're like, "Oh my gosh, this feels like a college experience," this is what I have to compete with. So in a way, I think there's a population of students who know how to do what you've described.

They know how to engage, they know how to show their interest. The challenge, in my role, is making sure how do the students that don't know how to do that are equal in this, and as a north country student myself, you too, Beth. Some of these things that come innately to other populations of student might not come as naturally to north country kids, for example.

Beth:  So how do you equalize the playing field? How does St. Lawrence as an admission's office reach out to those communities that may or may not have the structure to teach? How do you get into college, right? Or may have more first-generation college students that don't have a model within their family who have gone to college. And we're at a time right now where we have an all-time high of first-generation college students coming to colleges all across the country, which is a very exciting thing in St. Lawrence is playing a huge role in that. But how do we do that?

Lyndsay:  We have 10 admissions counselors on staff, and of the 10, that are responsible for domestic recruitment within the United States, five of them work in New York as part of their territory. And then there are an additional three that cover New England.

Beth:  Okay.

Lyndsay:  And so we are really committed to the rural areas, our backyard of the north country schools, even rural areas of Canada, to make sure that there is an admissions counselor that's going to the schools, connecting with counselors, being available for parents, and doing that education piece of our job. Here's who we are, here's what we can offer you as a St. Lawrence experience. And then the further you get down in that process, it's okay, now here's how you are successful in applying. So let's talk about your test scores. Let's talk about the importance of your essay. Let's talk about the importance of submitting things on time.

And in some of the communities that we work with, students don't have wifi. That's a very real scenario in 2022 of some students in rural New York and rural Vermont.

One of my favorite essays from last year was of a girl in Vermont, the bus at the end of the day would drop her off at a local bar. And the back booth of this restaurant bar was dedicated for students in that area to go do their homework and use the restaurant and bar wifi.

Beth:  Oh wow.

Lyndsay:  Because they didn't have wifi in their community. And so her essay was about that experience of people watching and seeing, her neighbors, and just people from her community, and kind of outing herself as someone who couldn't afford internet. And so we try really hard to not only share the experience but then educate as best we can to level that playing field among constituents or students from all over the country.

Beth:  I think that's really great to hear and I think for a lot of people who don't know too much about the recruitment process, it is important to highlight that you're not just going to the same schools every single year. Of course that is a part of the recruitment process, but is it safe to assume that every year we're looking at different places that we could be going, not only to help spread the word about St. Lawrence, but to do exactly what you're talking about which is try to help other communities engage their students within the college process?

Lyndsay:  Absolutely. I lived down in the Charlottesville area of Virginia for almost six years. So had a list of schools that often we went to and are a good fit for St. Lawrence and we know that there's student interest. And as soon as I moved back to Canton, in August, we had three students visit from a school I had never heard of in Alexandria, Virginia. And I thought, I know that school, I know where it is. I've never been there. It's a huge school. I didn't think it would be a good fit. But it took one student to find us to realize this could be a good fit for me. They came here, went home, shared the experience with their classmates, and then two other students came all the way up from Alexandria, which is not close.

Beth:  Nope.

Lyndsay:  And so we very much use data every single day to inform what we're doing. We're very lucky to have a good data team. We look at who's applying what type of demographics we want to draw from, something like the Twin Cities, Chicago area we honed in on, because the weather's similar enough. So we-

Beth:  Wisconsin, Minnesota, they get it. Yes?

Lyndsay:  Get it. We don't have to do that part of the sales job. But yes, every year we're reassessing with data informed decisions on what we can do better, what's the right population for us, and how can we get into those new markets.

Beth:  That's fantastic. One of the things that you mentioned is that you grew up in Tupper Lake and then you know, attended St. Lawrence, you left for Boston to get your master's degree, came back to live in Canton for a number of years, then you moved in a remote capacity to live in Charlottesville, Virginia and just moved back to Canton.

Lyndsay:  Yes.

Beth:  So obviously the north country has played a huge part in your entire life. What is it like to be back and have gone from a remote employee experience to being back on campus? What is that experience for you?

Lyndsay:  Yeah, oh, this question makes me laugh because as we've been reconnecting with friends and colleagues, some of whom we haven't seen in the last six years, it's been quite comical to say, "Yeah, this is my third time I've moved to Canton." Once as a student, which I totally account for, once for the first time to take the job, and now to be back with my family. So being back in Canton feels like no time has passed at all, but also that a lot of time has gone by in the same way if that makes sense.

Beth:  Yeah.

Lyndsay:  My husband, who is also class of 2010, and I had some really big milestones when we lived in Charlottesville. Jake's goal in moving there was to get his PhD from the University of Virginia and environmental science, which I'm very proud of. So we just want to plug his success.

Beth:  Congratulations Jake. Yes, of course.

Lyndsay:  We got a dog. We welcomed a bebe into our lives. We've two-year-olds. So being back in Canton, your landscape really changes as a parent and a dog owner. All of a sudden things like parks and playgrounds, large fields to run in, and biking become important.

Beth:  Sure.

Lyndsay:  So it's been interesting to see how this community, who we're very familiar with, now fits back into where we are in our lives as a family. And as a north country native I feel so incredibly biased towards the north country. I had such an amazing childhood growing up in Tupper Lake. I was incredibly lucky to have classmates and family who were active, who loved the outdoors, who instilled in me a real appreciation of place and to be kind of present in your place and whether you want to be there or not, to try to find the value in what a place can offer you. And so that's how I've always tried to experience life, whether it's in Canton or when I was abroad in Kenya or in Charlottesville. It's not always been easy, but if you find those things that you appreciate and are positive, it makes that so much easier. Relocating and moving is so challenging. Especially with a two year old.

There's just something so wholesome about the north country. two-year-old.

Beth:  Yeah.

Lyndsay:  Right. There's just something so comforting about having your car mechanic know your name or being a regular at the Friday Farmer's market and having just a little bit of a simpler lifestyle in a lot of ways. I just, I've always loved the small town experience and so it doesn't mean that in any way our life is less. It just makes you more appreciative of things that you have had or what you've experienced previously.

Beth:  I have to imagine coming back with a child, having left without a child and re-engaging with some of the faculty, staff, and community members who maybe also have had children since you were gone. And having that relationship in a completely different manner has also been a part of your experience. Am I correct to assume that?

Lyndsay:  You are correct. And the beautiful thing about moving back to a community that you've lived in previously is the challenges of making friends, finding that community almost nonexistent, and that I couldn't be more grateful for friends that we've kept in touch with over the last six years to kind of welcome us back into the fold. And then for them to have children who are also the same age as Miles, it's like, okay, you understand bedtime at 7:  30 is a hard line. Walking around with fruit snacks in your purse is now a reality. And so just so lucky, and I think it says a lot about the Canton community, the faculty and staff here, that people can say, "Oh, I haven't seen you in a while." Well yeah, it's been six years. And just have it feel like, how are you? What do you need? Does my 16-year-old need to be your babysitter? That has been, I think, really speaks volumes about the community that we have surrounding us at St. Lawrence and in the greater Canton area.

Beth:  You know, you talk a lot about community and it's gotten all of us on the production team also thinking about the community just within the admission's office itself is really interesting. We realize that a lot of the employees in admissions similar to University Advancement, have a lot of alums who work in the Office of Admissions in, We've also had a lot of admissions counselors who have been there for a long time, which is not an industry standard.

For those that don't know, I mean I think that the average lifespan is about two years within admissions and you either move on or move up and that's about it. And so it's a really special thing that St. Lawrence has these wonderful employees who have been in the admission's office for such a long time. Can you speak to what specifically about our Office of Admissions keeps people so engaged in this capacity?

Lyndsay:  I think part of it, is as alums, young or old I will say, want to keep living or reliving the college experience to some extent. Those of my colleagues that are still working in the office or have worked here and moved on to other opportunities, I think all very much believed in the experience. And so what an amazing way to sell a product.

Beth:  Sure.

Lyndsay:  To not only believe in it, but having lived it, is really valuable.

Beth:  Absolutely.

Lyndsay:  And I truly believe that every alum that has worked in our office, and I would also say in other departments across campus, wants to reiterate or educate in some way to this next generation of students that you too can have this experience. It might not look exactly like mine.

Beth:  Sure.

Lyndsay:  But you can do all of these things and here's what I did, now let's talk about how this applies to you. And we're just so drinking the juice, whatever that phrase is, we're just so in it that we want students to realize that they can have the same type of experience.

We also have an incredible student employment program. You can start here as a first-year, as a tour guide. You can work up to be a leader in that program. You could be a summer intern. And then we have a really great fellowship opportunity for students in their senior year to very much become professionals.

Many admissions counselors, and I at one point knew the exact statistical information, but I think over the last 10 years of that fellowship program, at least a dozen young alumni have gone into higher ed specifically, in admissions offices. And I think that is also, even though you're not working at St. Lawrence, also a testament to the type of experience that they have within Payson Hall, within the building that they're working in as students to say, I'm going to take what I learned and go make an impact on another student's life at another university.

Would I love for them to work for us? 1000%. But I can't keep them all. And some of these schools are big. We have alums at Dartmouth, Columbia, Rice, University of Washington. So they're getting not only a great student experience, but if you're at a student employee in our office, a really excellent professional experience that prepares them for the world after they've graduated.

Beth:  And I think that's really important when you're thinking a lot about the student experience in higher education. A lot of the times when you go to then work in higher education, you're almost kind of pulling back the curtain and seeing the Wizard of Oz behind and seeing how the inner working's kind of work. When you're able to give students a taste of that as a student, I think it would make the experience less jarring. Because I think it is fair to say that for some people, when they learn about business decisions, whether it's at St Lawrence or in any other place, it can be a little jarring for them to realize, "Oh, this is how things have to run." And I think what's great about having those fellowship experiences and having internships available and having these abilities for people to understand how higher education works, not only does it prepare them to be excellent administrators within higher education institutions, but it also helps them to be very engaged alums.

It allows them to better understand the problems and help us maybe be a problem solver, maybe volunteer and raise their hand and say, You know what? I think I know something about this. I can be of help for the university.

So while I think about that, it kind of makes me realize that when you're recruiting a class, you're kind of helping to shape what the next Laurentian legacy is going to be, whether it's through the students that come to work for you as students or what they do after they leave.

I know that this is kind of a big question, but how do you keep in mind this idea of the Laurentian legacy when you are recruiting a class? Is it a part of the messaging that you're doing or is it maybe subconscious?

Lyndsay:  It's such a good question. It might be one of the best questions I've ever been asked about my role and how it connects directly to the Laurentian experience. I think that the right student, singular, or the right class, much harder, can truly leave a lasting impact on a university. I do believe that.

I don't think though, in our day-to-day, we're super conscious of that.

Beth:  Sure.

Lyndsay:  I think that we're very aware of the key characteristics and values that we need at a small highly residential liberal art experience. Kind of going back to what we talked about at the beginning. And it only takes one student, or one group of people, to really start a movement. And thinking back to when we were students, there's so many things that are woven into the St. Lawrence fabric now that we didn't have.

Beth:  Absolutely.

Lyndsay:  We didn't have a New York City semester program, we didn't have a sustainability farm, we didn't have a Thailand program, because if we did, I would've gone. And so there's been a lot of programmatic changes, which are faculty and staff driven, absolutely. Survival driven to some degree as well. You have to remain relevant in 2022 and beyond to this next generation of students who's, as we've discussed, are already experts in some things. But we also have to recognize the voice of our students. And that voice of change, I think, comes from them or our alumni, which I'll also take credit for, Because I admit, they admit they start in the Admissions Office. And so I don't know if I necessarily have a good answer to this besides the fact that it totally does.

And I think what's so beautiful about this next generation of students is they're not afraid to speak up about what's important to them, what type of impact they hope to have, what they hope to bring from their communities to ours. And so in some ways it makes our jobs a lot easier in going back to that concept of just being a good listener. And that comes with the ugly stuff too, right?

Beth:  Sure.

Lyndsay:  Because we do our best, to see all of the good of the person, all of who they are. But what you see on paper is not always what you get.

Beth:  Right.

Lyndsay:  And so there's that kind of component to it too.

Beth:  This could be like your reflective question, you wake up in the morning and go, "Okay."

Lyndsay:  Yeah, how does my job shape a legacy?

Beth:  How am I thinking about this today and the work that I do? No, I think that that's really important and one of the strategic initiatives that President Morris has outlined for this year and beyond is this idea of impact. This idea of not just career prep, but how are we preparing students to know the impact they want to make on the world in their community and in their own lives? And combining that with the fact, like you said, that we have students who are already thinking about that in a way that we've never had that in generations before. I think this is a really powerful time to think about what is the impact of the Laurentian legacy going to be?

When you give back to St. Lawrence, for example, you're giving through St. Lawrence to make those future impacts because you're impacting the education of each of these future leaders and such, which I think is really interesting.

Lyndsay:  I completely agree. And I love the vision. I love the question. And I think what we as a university do well is we help the students who don't have an answer to the question, really find that passion, their interest, how to apply themselves through those passions, and then have the skills to make an impact and not be afraid to do it. I think we're very good at helping students work through that process. So many students come in and think they know what they want and then they go and take a class in the diversities or the humanities or the arts and it's like a light bulb goes off. And those are the most beautiful moments of our students, I think, to just have that transformative experience and really own it, which is just so powerful. Yeah.

Beth:  Well, I need to transition. You said the words, own it. And if there's one thing Lindsay Malcolm has owned, it is the Young Alumni League. You are considered by Dennis Morreale, who has created the Young Alumni League to be the goat, the greatest of all-time young alum to have ever competed for the cup. What was the secret to your success? I feel like I'm doing a post-game recap with you. What was the secret to your success? How many years did you do it?

Lyndsay:  Oh gosh. I just feel so lucky, truthfully, to even have been included in the Young Alumni League. To even be an iota of successful, I got very lucky, just to be brutally honest, my very first draft year. I was like, "Woo, this is a good team." I'm like, "I can do this." And I felt like I used that baseline group of people, eight to 10 of them, to really understand the importance of giving back. And I think that trickled out into other classmates of ours that then did something similar.

I think working for St. Lawrence too has had a total benefit.

Beth:  Oh, sure.

Lyndsay:  So when I traveled to Chicago, or I traveled to Seattle, or I went to Boston, all these places where I could say, "I'll stay with my girlfriend Christine, or I will stay with my former roommate Katie," and draw on those connections really helped. And then always having swag, Laurentians love stuff. So a sticker, a pen, a pennant. But I also, I've always just been me. There's been no facade. There's no trick. It's just honest. And I always try to be very genuine and I feel I'm very good at dates, so I keep track of people's birthdays-

Beth:  I thought you meant dating.

Lyndsay:  ... Well, maybe back in the day, Beth, I just kind of-

Beth:  I thought you meant you were wining and dining people for participation. And I was like, "Hey. I mean, she's being open about it."

Lyndsay:  That I did not do, I will say that was not part of my success.

Just keeping track of people's lives. My grandmother actually taught me that, to pay attention to the details. And she is an amazing record keeper. She's journaled her whole life. And I'm not a journaler, but I do like to keep track of birthdays, anniversaries, kids birthdays, and just those little touches, especially as we get older, I found really, really matter. And then following that up with, "Oh by the way, I'm going to be in town next week. Can I grab you a coffee or do you want to catch up?"

Beth:  Yeah.

Lyndsay:  But I think the real secret is just being totally genuine, trying to be who you are and then tying who you are to the importance of giving back, bringing it back to that impact and helping educate our classmates on how much $5 can do, how much just participation matters, just worked well for me and we have a wonderful class. I will attribute it all back to them of just really incredible people who I feel very lucky to be in company with.

Beth:  Absolutely. And while you have been chatting, Dennis Morreale has put in the chat all of your wonderful achievements. So Lindsay started the Young Alum League in 2015, was the overall champion of all the young alum classes in 2015, her first year in 2018, and was a division champion, which is the class of 2010 in 2015, '16, '17, '18, and '19. So literally every year that you were in the league, because in 2020, as we will remember, we did not do the league, which would've been our last year.

Lyndsay:  That's right. Yep.

Beth:  I am only salty about one of those years because I got second place to you and I think it was 2015 or 2016. Okay. Allie Morrow, our great classmate-

Lyndsay:  Yes.

Beth:  Did have 2020.

Lyndsay:  Good for her, that was the year my son was born. So I do remember-

Beth:  Making excuses now. "Oh, my son was born, so therefore I couldn't have won."

Lyndsay:  ... Something had to give. Something had to give. The other thing I'll say, and my classmates and my husband will attest to this, I'm incredibly competitive-

Beth:  Yes.

Lyndsay:  It doesn't matter.

Beth:  Absolutely.

Lyndsay:  Checkers, kickball, I'm out to win. And when Allie Morrow was creeping up, or Paige Freelander was creeping up or Chelsea Lloyd or Beth Dixon, I was like, "Oh, game on. Let's go." And that really definitely was part of my fuel. And also, let's just credit Denny. I mean the structure is brilliant. Take a competitive structure that we're all familiar with, fantasy football, fantasy league type thing, and challenge people in all these different ways. It's a brilliant structure and I was honored to be a part of it. Lucky to be successful in it. And just think St. Lawrence benefited from Denny's brilliant idea and making it be successful.

Beth:  And absolutely. If any of our listeners are young alums within the past 10 years and want to get involved, you can absolutely reach out to Dennis Morreale to get involved because it is a fun time. Because at the core of it, you're reaching out to classmates and connecting with them and reconnecting with them, which is what-

Lyndsay:  Exactly. Exactly.

Beth:  Lindsay, what didn't I ask you that you want people to know about you?

Lyndsay:  Well, two things come to mind. I was very, very lucky to experience the Kenya Semester program as a student. And that, I won't be cliche and say it totally changed my life, but it has shaped it incredibly.

Beth:  I'm sure.

Lyndsay:  I will continue to be a lifelong advocate for study abroad experiences, especially ones that test your limits, push your boundaries, get you out of your comfort zone, which Kenya did for me. I had been as far north as Plattsburgh New York and as far south as Orlando Florida. And so when I told my parents I was going to Kenya, my mom laughed, "Go talk to your dad." So it really, I think shaped a lot of the skill sets that I bring to work every day.

Beth:  Sure.

Lyndsay:  Of being tough and resilient and listening and advocating for my students. A lot of the things that I experience on the Kenya Program, I feel like I use day to day and just, it's an incredible program and I feel so lucky to have been a part of it.

Beth:  Fantastic. Well, we are so lucky as a university to have you, both in the role that you're in and as an alum, we so appreciate everything that you've done to give back because I truly believe that coming to work again at St. Lawrence is an honor and a privilege, but it's also a wonderful way to give back to this community, to make impacts on the community, to help shape the community for the future and make it sustainable. And you are certainly a huge part of that for the Laurentian and community. We are so excited for your first year in this executive director of admissions role, and we cannot wait to see what else you and Jake have brewing up over at Camp Malcolm.

Lyndsay:  Well, we have ideas, that's for sure. There's nothing like being inspired by small-town businesses and friends who are doing great things in the community. So we're thrilled to be back and excited to kind of get our hands dirty, not only at St. Lawrence, but also in Canton. And thank you so much for having me. I loved talking with you and sharing a little bit about my experience with you and your listeners.

Beth:  Well, we are so happy to have you. Thank you again for joining us and we will kick it out to the outro now.

[Music plays and ends]

Beth:  And there we have it. Our interview with Lindsay Malcolm, class of 2010. She and Jake Malcolm, her husband, are just such a staple in the north country and it's so great to welcome them back up in Canton.

I am so excited to see all the wonderful things that she and her staff are going to achieve. As it's probably no secret, it is a very challenging time in college admissions with lower populations of students and higher selectivity across the board. It's really a wonderful time to have such a great leader like her in the reigns of the Admissions Office and staff. We have such a wonderful staff there. And I just want to give a special shout-out to all of our colleagues across campus, as well as all of our various different alumni who step up and help us out with the admissions process, whether they volunteer by helping to staff a college fair or do some off campus interviews.

So thank you all so much for making St. Lawrence such a wonderful place to be. We will be back next month with another great Scarlet & Brown interview. So until then, we'll see you next month.

[Theme Music Plays]

Beth:  Scarlet & Brown Stories is produced and edited by Amanda Brewer, Beth Dixon, Megan Fry Dozier and Dennis Morreale. Our music was written by Christopher Watts, inspired by Eugene Wright, class of 1949. Subscribe to Scarlet & Brown stories on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

Consider leaving us a rating review as well. If you have a story to submit to us, you can email us at connect@stlawu.edu.

[Theme Music Ends]

[Music Plays]

Beth:  Hello Laurentians, and welcome back to a very special edition of Scarlet & Brown Stories. I'm Beth Dixon, and joining me today is Megan Fry Dozier, and we are so excited to introduce a very special guest, Megan.

Megan:  Yes. We are so excited today to have President Kate Morris joining us on Scarlet & Brown Stories.

Beth:  This is super exciting, not just because we have the president, but also, we're going to be talking to her a couple of weeks before her inauguration on campus. And it's a little unique, because she's actually in her second year, but because of the COVID spike last year, we were unable to celebrate her as the 19th President of the university. So I'm really excited we had the opportunity to chat with her.

Megan:  I am as well, and excited to hear about her first year as president, which had both challenges, but also incredible accomplishments and high points. So, without further ado, let's get right into our conversation.

[Music Plays]

Megan:  It is my distinct pleasure to introduce Kate Morris, St. Lawrence University's 19th President. She arrived at St. Lawrence last summer, following a career at Butler University, where she most recently served as the provost and Vice President for Academic Affairs for over eight years.

In her first year at St. Lawrence, Kate has been active in getting to know our students, faculty, and staff. Off campus, she has traveled far and wide to meet members of the Laurentian community. She has experiencing many of our traditions for the first time, including Commencement, Reunion, and her second move in weekend, new student matriculation, and convocation. And we are so excited to have her here with us on Scarlet & Brown Stories.

Beth:  Welcome to the podcast, President Morris, we're so excited to have you.

President Morris:  Thank you, happy to be here.

Beth:  Well, I think it's important for us... Megan, and talked a little bit about traditions and so, one of the things that... I know that Butler must have a lot of traditions, and St. Lawrence certainly has our share of them, and we were wondering as a means of getting to know you a little bit more in your first year at St. Lawrence, what has been your favorite tradition that you've learned about or taken part of in this past year in your first year of presidency?

President Morris:  Well, let me answer that with a few different answers, not just one. So from the student perspective, I would say the tradition that I most enjoyed was Matriculation. I got to do that last year, and then I got to do that again this year. And I really like the way that the students are welcomed into the community by their colleges. And the fact that all of the current students, the sophomores, the juniors, the seniors, who are orientation leaders and CAs, get the students really excited as they're all leaving together in their groups to go start orientation.

I thought that was really nice, particularly this year, when we had the actual bagpipers. Last year in the pandemic, we couldn't do that. But this year we got to see the full scale of it all, so that was on the student side, something I really liked. Another tradition that I very much enjoyed and hadn't ever been a part of anything like this before was the Honor Guard Dinner, which happened at Reunion, and that is the dinner where members of the 50th Reunion class receive what they call the Honor Guard Diploma in recognition of being a 50-year alum of St. Lawrence.

And that event was just absolutely delightful to see all of those folks. And we did it this past year for three years of 50th Reunion classes because there hadn't been a Reunion for the two years before. So it was a big group and there was lots of excitement. I would say those are the true traditions that I've liked the most, but I also feel compelled to answer in a way that's not necessarily about tradition.

The things that I've really enjoyed the most, I would say, are seeing the students in action. So the visits to the New York City program, the visit to the sustainability farm, the visit to the Adirondack semester, and of course the visit to the Kenya semester program were highlights of my year. To see and learn what the students are doing in those really highly experiential programs.

Beth:  I think it's really compelling to hear you say, especially as the leader of our institution, honestly, the traditions that you speak to are either experiential education, but at the end of the day, they're, they're all about community. They're all about acceptance and support. And the things that we hold true as Laurentians of welcoming each other, whether it's to a milestone or to an event. And so I feel like you've gotten to the crux of what it is to be Laurentians in that answer, and I really definitely appreciate that.

President Morris:  Yeah, I think the strength of the community is something I've been talking about a lot over the last year and a half since I was announced as President elect. That became very clear to me during all of the welcome zooms that I did with various constituents on campus. It was particularly palpable at the Adirondack semester last fall when I visited with that group and the students talked about the community that they have developed with each other and the intentionality of that community.

One of the students said, "If we walk by the water filter and don't make sure that it's operating in the right functional way, then later on we're not going to have water. We are also exceptionally interdependent on each other." And they spoke with really great eloquence about the community that was built among the students on that particular program.

Megan: I love that you mentioned our Kenya semester program, and I know you were there this past March celebrating our 50-year study abroad partnership, which is so exciting. And I was wondering if you could dig a little bit more into that experience and tell us a little about what you learned in Kenya.

President Morris:  Yeah, that program, so I've been a big fan of study abroad for a very long time, since I studied abroad as a high school exchange student. That program is remarkable and it's put together in such an incredibly thoughtful way. There's a combination of experiences that the students have when they're on that program. They are on our compound that we own and operate in Nairobi.

They spend time with a rural home stay family somewhere out in the countryside. They spend time in an urban home stay environment. They're in Nairobi somewhere. They spend time with pastoral communities, various places around Kenya, depending on which semester it is that they go. And they have the independent project that they do. That combination of experiences across the semester gives them a very rich and full understanding of the variety of communities that exist in Nairobi or around Kenya. And it's really designed to help any student, no matter what their major is, to learn in this new country for them and to grow and to develop.

And it doesn't matter if they're conservation biology major or a business in the liberal arts major, they are able to find something to do there that is meaningful to them and their future interests.

So, it was really wonderful to see how that program is put together and the various components of it and how they work to create this holistic transformative experience for students. The other thing that I learned while I was there is that what we were celebrating was 50 years of partnerships in Kenya, not just 50 years of study abroad relationship in Kenya.

We hosted a reception and I think we invited something like 46 people and 52 showed up. People who are affiliated with St. Lawrence in some way or the other. And that means that they were host families or alumni of St. Lawrence, either alumni who are American expats now living and working in Kenya or Kenyan alumni who came here and did their education here and are now back in Kenya. The connections are incredible there. So we were celebrating more than just the study abroad program, but all of the connections that we have there as

Beth:  Well. Once again, bringing back to community and connections and support. Which I think that anybody who has studied abroad in Kenya, we were lucky to a few podcasts ago, interview Cooper McCrillis, class of '21 who had his Kenyan semester cut in half because of COVID, and then was able to return this past summer with the Laurentian trip to Kenya and interact with his host families before he met up with the Laurentians in Kenya. And he definitely spoke very highly of the connections, the community aspects of that.

So, I'm really happy to hear that you were able to, without studying for a whole semester there, see the depths of those relationships and what they truly mean to St. Lawrence even though it's half a world away. And I think that those partnerships, whether they're in Kenya or here on campus or across the north country for something that we really pride ourselves with.

In thinking of your first year, you clearly had a challenge when you started right off the gates with a spike in COVID cases both on campus and in the north country. Navigating that pandemic, I'm sure you relied a little bit more on the partners and the community that we had. Can you tell us a little bit about what this taught you about our campus community and the greater launching community?

President Morris:  Yeah. It was a very difficult time at the beginning of the first year in terms of we all went into it with a great deal of optimism. Everybody had been vaccinated. We felt like we were coming out of the pandemic at that period of time. And what we learned was that vaccination might make you less likely to become seriously ill, but it did not stop the infections from happening.

And that became very apparent not only on college campuses around the country, but also in society in general. So I think that part of the reason that it was such a challenge for everyone last fall is that our hopes were dashed. Not just that it happened, but that we thought it was going to be so different than it actually turned out to be. And what we saw is what I would expect. We saw a lot of resilience.

We saw people stepping up. We saw a lot of leadership taking place. I will forever be grateful for the CSMC, the Campus Safety Monitoring Committee that has done an exceptional amount of work over the past two years of the pandemic, both before I arrived at St. Lawrence and after I have been here. So, people have stepped up to solve problems to think through the best way that we can address the challenges, the many challenges that we faced during this period of time.

Where do we put people for a 10-day isolation? How do we make sure that there's enough testing? What's the difference in the way we handle people who are vaccinated, which was the vast majority of our community, and people who had exceptions to that vaccination requirement. So we saw a lot of people step up, and I give the students a lot of credit as well because we put some restrictions on them that frankly most of them did not want to have. Some people were asking for even more restrictions, but most of them were not interested in them. And really it was the compliance with some of those restrictions that helped us to get that outbreak on our campus back under control.

Beth:  I can't imagine whether you're new to the campus as the university president like you were or new to a campus, and the college experience, whether you're our first year or a sophomore. Having to navigate not only this transition to a new environment in a new school, but also have to navigate your safety in a way that has not been a consideration. And it's great to hear that you felt like our campus partners were there to do the research and make those tough decisions and keep safety at utmost importance as everybody was transitioning back from a three semester year into this normal school model that we have of two semesters. Did you have any outreach from alumni or parents that you really felt like helped support you in those first couple of months?

President Morris:  Absolutely. People have been very gracious with their expressions of support from the time that I was announced as president elect back in, I think that was February of 2021. And people continue. I continue to be amazed to get an email from somebody that just says, "Hey, I meant to contact you many months ago and I didn't. Hope it's going well. Welcome to the community." Just yesterday I got a message via Instagram direct message saying, “Hey, congratulations on starting your second year.”

From someone I haven't actually met yet. So there's that constant sense of welcome from this community. People are also not hesitant to express when they are not happy with the decisions that get made. And this is the thing about navigating this pandemic. Not only are there physical safety concerns that we've all had to deal with, but there's also psychological safety concerns. There are real psychological challenges associated with isolation, associated with social restrictions, and trying to balance those two things and come up with a spot where we are prioritizing both the safety and the wellbeing of members of our community.

There's no way that we could make everybody happy. So we had a lot of outreach that was supportive, and we had outreach that was less than supportive. And there were people who felt like we were not implementing strong enough safety recommendations, everything up to and including arguing that we should shut down campus and send students home and be fully remote. To arguments that we were doing too much, and we needed to actually throw away mask mandates and just act like there is no pandemic.

So, there were people all around. One group that I feel compelled to mention would be local public health folks. And we've had a great deal of support from the county public health, from the St. Lawrence Public Health and good partnerships off campus in the local community helping us in the other colleges in the area to navigate a challenging situation and to think through what's the best way to come up with this balance when we're thinking about both physical safety and psychological wellbeing.

Megan:  That's one of the things that's so powerful about St. Lawrence, is that we are so integrated into that community and our associated colleges compared to some other institutions, and that's part of our special relationship and why Laurentians are so close. President Morris, you mentioned community wellness, which I know is one of your three strategic initiatives for the year ahead. So I was wondering if you could speak to that a little bit more and are other strategic initiatives for the year as well?

President Morris:  Sure. And we'll start with wellness, since that's where you started your question. It's been a tough time for folks due to the pandemic. So the question is what can we do to support employees, our faculty and staff, and to support our students as we come out of this pandemic environment? On the employee side of things, we've done a couple of different things over the past year, including trying to give people a little bit more time at points in the year where it makes sense to do so.

For example, we remained predominantly closed for a couple of extra days after winter break last winter, and we did the same thing over the 4th of July this summer. And we've piloted a program where, if possible, people have the opportunity to either work remotely or to take Friday afternoons off if they were still able to get their work done at other points in time.

And one of the benefits of these types of changes is that when everyone is off at the same time, you get a little bit of a room to breathe. Whereas if we all take vacation days at different points in time, you come back from vacation and you feel like everything else continued except you and you might as well have not gone because you're farther behind than you were before the vacation. So, one of the things we've tried to do is to figure out ways to give people together more of a breathing room at the same time.

So that's one of our examples. And we recently announced our rejuvenation grants program, which put about $50,000 of support out there for our faculty and staff for those who put forward grant proposals. And we believe that those programs that are going to be funded by those grants should support approximately a fourth of our employees.

Beth:  And for the students, I imagine having the employees, as Megan and I both are, when we feel recharged, we can only help to support the students and the wellness initiatives that we have there. Can you speak a little bit to perhaps the Jed Foundation or the other initiatives that we've done from a student perspective?

President Morris:  Sure. On the student side of things, we've implemented a pretty significant number of new resources since I arrived. About a year ago, we developed the Office of Student Wellness. We hired a wellness coordinator. That person got promoted to be a director. Now all of student activities reports through that Office of Wellness, so that student activities are intentionally focused on wellbeing for students.

And the Jed Foundation is an outside organization that was founded by two parents who lost their son Jed to suicide. And their goal in developing this foundation was to do everything in their power to keep the spirit of their son Jed alive by helping to support holistic wellbeing for predominantly college and university students.

And then they also have programs with high schools, and they are particularly focused on overall holistic wellbeing. They are of course focused on suicide prevention, and they are focused on the prevention of alcohol and drug misuse and dependence.

And they have a holistic program that they do where over a four-year period of time, institutions can partner with the JED Foundation, and it uses a typical assessment kind of strategy where at the beginning, students complete a survey called the Healthy Mind Survey to help you understand where your students are at that particular moment in time. They also come to campus, and they do a thorough analysis of your policies, your procedures, your programs, your offerings that support student wellbeing, and then they help you to develop a strategic plan related to community wellness for your students.

And to implement things where you are not currently operating in the best practice manner. And then you follow those things up across time and at the end of four years, you do the survey again to see what kind of impact you have made. So this past year was year one for us where we did the Healthy Mind survey and the Jed Foundation did their assessment, and they have made a variety of recommendations to us that we're in now getting ready to implement this year and next year.

Beth:  That's fantastic. It's really great to hear that we're being proactive not only on the faculty staff front, but on the student front to make sure that our student's wellness is at the forefront, including their safety as we discussed before as well. Can you talk to your other strategic initiatives as well? I know that the Center for the Environment was one that you had.

President Morris:  Yeah, sure. So the Center for the Environment is a concept that's been around at St. Lawrence for a little while, but it's not yet been implemented. And my hope is that it is up and running beginning next summer. And the whole idea behind a Center for the Environment is, first of all, it's taking advantage of a unique space that we occupy at St. Lawrence.

Between the St. Lawrence River and the Adirondacks, we have a unique location. We have a student body that is very interested in the environment, in sustainability, in climate change, in the reciprocal relationship that human beings have with the environment around us. And our students are interested in these topics regardless of what their majors are. This is not something that's limited to biology majors. This is something that our English majors and our econ majors are interested in as well.

So, this is an opportunity for our students to be engaged in a topic that is important to them, that is a passion for them, that might also complement the academic work that they're doing in their major discipline of choice and help to prepare them for whatever comes post-graduation. So we can help them to understand how to be an effective advocate for the environment, how to get involved in policy, and maybe how to get involved in a job related to the environment in some way or another.

Beth:  That's incredible.

Megan:  That is, And I think that takes us right into our third strategic priority for the year post-college impact. Could you speak to that a little bit?

President Morris:  Sure. And I might have even set us right up for that.

Beth:  I think you did. That was a pretty great transition.

President Morris:  So that's what I am calling Laurentian Impact. And just to give you a little bit of context, there's a lot of schools right now that are talking about career placement, and they are talking about those outcomes that happened immediately after students graduate from college.

And of course, we want our students to get jobs, we want them to get into graduate school or professional school or go to a service program like the Peace Corps, whatever it is that they're interested in doing immediately after college. We want them to be successful, and they are. We have a very nice placement rate for immediately after graduation and in the months thereafter. But what I want to see St. Lawrence do is to focus on an even bigger picture. And that it's not just about getting that job after college. It's not just about even having a career that builds off of that first job.

It's about having a life of meaning and purpose where that work that a person does creates a positive impact in the world. And that's the Laurentian Impact. That it's much bigger and it's much longer term than getting your first job. That we want our graduates to be doing really good things in the world that give them meaning and purpose in their life, and also help to make things better for the people around them.

And each of us has our own pathway to doing this. So we have to help students figure out what are their passions? What is the thing that makes them feel pulled to do something, to feel compelled to do something, and then help them figure out how to take their academic endeavors, their co-curricular endeavors, these experiential learning opportunities that we have, and turn that passion into something that is the first job, and ultimately the thing that gives them meaning and spreads that meaning to other people.

Beth:  I particularly find this very interesting and encouraging, given my role at St. Lawrence where I work with the New York City semester program, bridging this connection between alumni and students to figure out what is that impact that they would like to make, both on their own lives and in the world. So it's very exciting to hear this, and I look forward to figuring out what my part in all of this can be.

I definitely think that one of the things that this generation of student is interested in is figuring out what is my purpose in making this world a better place? And so when we have curriculum and programs that encourage that, I think that you'll find that it helps in the other strategic initiatives. It helps with the wellness, and it helps with the center for the environment. It helps in all of those different capacities.

President Morris:  Yeah, I'm so glad you said that, Beth, and I'm glad it resonates for you. But I also want to say that as you frame this idea of career preparation and career placement into something a little bit bigger, it also challenges us as employees to figure out what that means for us. What is my purpose? What drives me? Why do I go to work in the morning? What is it about this work that I'm doing at St. Lawrence that is providing meaning? And I was challenged with this at my prior institution when I participated in a program that was a faculty staff development program designed to help faculty and staff think about our purpose, our sense of vocation, our sense of calling.

Megan:  And I think that takes us right into celebrating your calling as our 19th President at St. Lawrence University at the time of this recording. I think we're about six weeks away from your inauguration, which we are so excited to host on campus. Could you tell us what you're looking forward to most for that weekend?

President Morris:  So, an inauguration has a personal meaning for the president who's being inaugurated, but it's really an important institutional and academic ceremony. Just like matriculation. Just like commencement. These are things that don't happen very many times. It's something that's happened 19 times at St. Lawrence and other schools might have more or less, but it's not something that happens that often.

And there's a lot of academic tradition associated with it. There will be delegates from other institutions wearing the regalia of those other institutions in the same way that we send delegates of St. Lawrence to inaugurations for other presidents. And there are some other traditional components of what inauguration looks like.

So, it is a big moment for the institution, and I hope it punctuates a time for people to sit back and reflect on these issues of meaning and vocation and calling that we've just been talking about. What is St. Lawrence all about? How are we living into our mission? All of those things are really great from an institutional perspective. For me personally, what I'm looking forward to the most is that I have people from all facets of my life who are coming here to support me through this, and that is really special.

Beth:  Well, I think I speak for so many people when I say that it was devastating to us all that we couldn't celebrate you last year in person. And if anything, it is just amped up the excitement for this weekend for you. So, we are so excited to have the opportunity to celebrate you and celebrate St. Lawrence and the leadership that you give us and have already given us and will give us over the next years.

But this also leads us to some very important questions that we want to get to know you as a person and not just the president of St. Lawrence University. So we're going to give you a little bit of a lightning round of sorts where we're going to ask you some questions, and these are just designed to kind of get to know you and what you're like both on campus and at St. Lawrence and outside of it. So the first thing that we would like to ask you is what do you do to relax?

President Morris:  I'm not always good at relaxing as it turns out. But I would say when I don't have anything else pressing, I either walk my dog or hike with my dog, or I am reading cooking magazines or cooking blogs, or I am cooking. Trying something new and different that I've never tried. So concrete. This past weekend, I had a little bit of time. I took my dog to a waterfall I hadn't been to before. And I did a whole lot of cooking as it turned out. So yeah, that's what I do.

Beth:  I love that.

Megan:  Which takes us to my question. What is your favorite non Saint Lawrence place in the north country?

President Morris:  Oh, non-St. Lawrence place in the north country. Okay. So we've just gotten done talking about food. So I'll tell you two food places, bar none my favorite restaurant is the Blue House, and I go there every week if I'm in town. And I don't really want to tell people this, but if they haven't gone there, they should absolutely go there. And the only reason I don't want to tell you is because then it makes it harder to get a table.

But that place is wonderful, and Alicia and Josh as the owner. Operators are wonderful people. So that's my favorite restaurant. And I'm a big Donnelly's Ice Cream fan, so getting out there is a really special thing. And I don't know about other places. I've been on a lot of different hikes and have liked an awful lot of places. I would say that just from my house being able to do that Saddlemire Kip Trail Loop and back has been something that I've really enjoyed, although that's integrated with the campus, so maybe that doesn't count.

Beth:  Fair enough.

Megan:  Does Comet get his own Donna Lee's cone post hike?

President Morris:  Well, he doesn't get his own cone, but he usually eats at least half of mine.

Beth:  Is that if you're not fast enough, he'll just...

President Morris:  Well, there have been times where I wasn't looking, and he got the whole thing. Yeah.

Beth:  We were talking about places. And so I'll add another question onto this. If you were a student, where would you study or sneak off to for a quiet moment?

President Morris:  Okay. All right. So this is hard to answer because as a student, I always studied in my room and I didn't really study in other places. But if I were a student here, I really like the vibe of ODY. So I suspect I would spend time up on the second floor there. There's really good light, and I like those tree house units up there, so I'd probably go there. I also really like Herring Cole, and I like the fact that it used to be a library. So that seems like a nice and pleasant place just for the history of it and the beauty of it. That's probably something else that I would do. And I would probably do what I do now, which is walk out to the stables and look at the horses.

Beth:  The horses, especially little Gabby, the miniature horses. Always welcoming and so nice to have a little break from campus for sure.

Megan:  Is there anything that you have not done yet on campus that you would like to do this year?

President Morris:  Yes, there are a variety of things I have not done. On campus I would say I only got to go skate on our rink once last year, and it was for about 10 minutes on the last day the ice was in. So I hope I can go do that a little bit more. It has long been a desire of mine to drive a Zamboni for probably 15 years, something I've wanted to do.

So maybe I can try to do that. There's probably risk management reasons that I shouldn't. And can I say off campus things, but North country things that I want to do. I still haven't hiked a high peak. I've done a lot of others, but haven't done a high peak, and I haven't been to Ottawa yet.

Beth:  Oh, definitely go to Ottawa. See now you can skate in Ottawa and you can kind of get the skating and Ottawa visit in at the same time if you go in the winter.

President Morris:  I hope to do that.

Beth:  If you were a first-year student, which first year program would you choose to be in?

President Morris:  Well, I think there's one that has something related to Harry Potter. I think there was some sort of a children's literature option. So I'm a big Harry Potter fan, and I've read each of the books at least three times, and some of them several times more than that. So I probably do that one. There's one about walking and wellbeing that I'd be interested in. And then I don't remember the name of it, but there's something about community and culture in the St. Lawrence Valley that sounds really interesting to me. As someone who's not from this area, that might be one that I would choose also.

Beth:  Excellent. So we have your top three ranks, so now the first year program office can figure out where the best fit would be for you. That's excellent.

Megan:  I feel like that's the hardest choice every St. Lawrence student has to make is what first year program. I would want to choose all of them.

President Morris:  Yeah, there's a lot of great options.

Megan:  There really are. What's your favorite building on campus?

President Morris:  Oh, I think Herring Cole is the prettiest building on campus, but can I choose a second one?

Beth:  Absolutely.

President Morris:  The second building I would choose is the Sullivan Student Center. And that's because... I mean, I like the way it looks in terms of the big open area in there and the way that it's built to look like a ski lodge, but that building is full of students and has just a really good vibe whenever you walk in there.

The vibe is really good with lots of people and lots of activity and people being happy. And in fact, it's one of the reasons I decided to take this job because when I came here to visit, we walked through the Sullivan Student Center, and it was high pandemic time at that point in time, and yet the building was full of students in their small groups kind of separate from each other. And that gave me a sense of what the students are like here, and it made me feel good about the student culture here.

Beth:  Fantastic. And our last question for you is, what are three words that you would choose to describe St. Lawrence?

President Morris:  To describe St. Lawrence or to describe Laurentians? That's kind of a hard one.

Beth:  Okay. Why don't we do Laurentians? I actually like that better.

President Morris:  So, for loon, I would say adventurous, curious, and engaged.

Beth:  I would agree with all of those for sure.

Megan:  I would too.

Beth:  Well, we know that you're incredibly busy serving loon, both on and off campus, and we want to thank you for supporting the various Scarlet & Brown Stories that each Laurentian writes themselves. And so we're excited to finally celebrate you on inauguration weekend, and we thank you so much for joining us today.

President Morris:  Oh, thank you for having me here. It's been a delight.

Megan:  Pleasures all ours. 

Megan:  All right. And that is a wrap on our conversation with President Kate Morris. So hard to say goodbye. Right, Beth, I feel like I could ask another hours’ worth of questions and a lot to digest. I'm really excited to hear about the strategic plan and some of our goals going forward. What were some things that stuck out to you?

Beth:  I learned a lot from our conversation with President Morris, and especially the idea of the Center for the Environment I think is going to be really important, not only to the on campus community, but for so many of our alums who find this to be a passion project and have always been encouraging us to think about the ways in which we can encourage sustainability, both on campus and off as Laurentians.

And I'm really excited to see how this manifests. And also just knowing that we're looking at impact not just a career, but what are the things that our students are going to go on to do once they graduate and make an impact, both on their life and in the life of other people? I think that that's really important for us to be thinking about, and I know our students are too.

Megan:  Absolutely. I'm a strong believer that the world needs Laurentians, and it's exciting to see these new initiatives that are going to give our students the best launchpad possible. I also love, and I've been ruminating on this one for a while, but I love the approach to wellness that focuses on prevention and not just treating problems once they become a crisis. Both for students and for faculty and staff. The fact that we're trying to take this holistic look at how our community can be as healthy as possible, I think is going to pay dividends in the future.

Beth:  I definitely agree. I cannot wait to see all the initiatives come to fruition and see what President Morris has in store for us as a leader for our campus community and our off-campus community. We want to thank her for taking the time to speak with us once again, and next month we will be back with another amazing Laurentian interview.

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 Beth:  Scarlet & Brown Stories is produced and edited by Amanda Brewer, Beth Dixon, Megan Fry Dozier and Dennis Morreale. Our music was written by Christopher Watts, inspired by Eugene Wright, class of 1949. Subscribe to Scarlet & Brown Stories on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcast. Consider leaving us a rating review as well. If you have a story to submit to us, you can email us at connect@stlawu.edu.

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Beth:  Welcome on back, Laurentians, to the Scarlet & Brown Podcast where we talk with various different Laurentians, both on and off campus, about their Scarlet & Brown Stories. Today, I am joined by Amelia Jantzi, as my co-host, and while we do have a wonderful Laurentian that we're going be speaking with very, very shortly, I am just so excited and also a little sad, to say goodbye to Amelia Jantzi. This is her last time podcasting with us, so it will be the last time her voice will grace your ears in this format. But, I do want to welcome her on in. Amelia, how are you doing today?

Amelia:  Hey, Beth. Oh, I'm good. Thank you so much for that welcome. It's been so special to work on this project with you and with our other co-hosts, and editors, Denny, and Megan, and Amanda, it's just been so special to be able to hear these Scarlet & Brown stories, and through the lives of all these different Laurentians, really come to see what's so special about St. Lawrence. I feel like our guest today, E-Ben Grisby, class of '99, is such a great example of that, of someone who took his learned experience to create not just a career, but really, a sense of impact in whichever community he is, wherever he is, and really is committed to being a force of good in this world. It was just such a wonderful conversation that we had, so I can't wait for all of you to hear this very special Scarlet & Brown Story.

Beth:  Let's kick it off to our interview with E-Ben Grisby. 

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Beth:  We are here today with E-Ben Grisby, class of 1999, and we are so excited to talk to such an engaged alum and somebody who has done so much for his local community, as well. E-Ben, how are you doing today? Welcome on to the podcast.

E-Ben:  Thank you Beth and Amelia. I'm doing a lot better. I just had wisdom teeth surgery.

Beth:  Oh, my goodness.

E-Ben:  Let me just let you know, never get your wisdom tooth taken care of after the age of 18.

Beth:  Oh, my goodness.

E-Ben:  Take care of it while you're young.

Amelia:  Yeah, not fun memories, at all.

E-Ben:  No, no, no, no. I waited 30 years too late.

Beth:  Oh, my god. That definitely makes for an interesting week, I have to say. I've had mine done a couple years after I graduated, and that is an experience to go through. So, thank you for coming onto a podcast where you have to talk a lot, especially after having your wisdom teeth removed.

E-Ben:  Story of my life, man. August is usually the month of, what can you get done before school starts?

Amelia:  Classic.

Beth:  It's such an important thing to remember too, because even one of the things that we wanted to discuss with you today, is your career in education. So, can you tell us a little bit about what you do within your school district, and what made you want to pursue, especially, special education?

E-Ben:  Certainly. In my career, I'm going into my 22nd year, as an educator.

Beth:  Oh, my goodness.

Amelia:  Wow.

E-Ben:  Yeah, but I'm only 29, but we'll leave it.

Beth:  [Laughter] Very prolific.

Amelia:  [Laughter] A prodigy!

E-Ben:  Right? Good jeans and cocoa butter. I've been a special education teacher for about 21 out of the 22 years, and I would say what got me into it was, I have a brother who's on the autism spectrum, and I wanted to be able to give back to the community that I came from, which is New York City. But, I also felt like with these skills, you're trying to empower students who've, regardless of their disability, you get to realize that they still have to live a life of purpose. Still have to live a life as good citizens, and realize that, yes, you may have paperwork that may state that your disability is this, that doesn't mean that we should have any kind of preclusion from you, to embark on a life worth having.

Beth:  Absolutely.

E-Ben:  And, as a special education teacher, I always tell people that it's not about a disability or an inability, it's, what can we teach students beyond those limitations? It's trying to give kids opportunities that maybe they didn't think they even had, and to make them feel empowered when they're in the classroom. Although, realizing that yes, I'm the teacher, I'm their guide, I'm whomever that they need, at that point. I've had some kids call me their school parent and I'm like freaking out. But, I think that's respect, because for many of my students, they're just regular everyday kids who, they want people to believe in them a little bit more.

Over the years, I've been invited to weddings, I've been invited to family events with former students, and you don't know, it touches your heart sometimes when you realize that some of these kids may have had chances that could have landed them in jail, that could have put them six feet under, and I've had those too, but I'm not going to talk about those too much. But, to let people know that, you become a part of that student's life in so many ways, beyond the classroom, within that 45 minutes to 50 minute schedule.

Beth:  I think that's one of the most powerful things about being an educator. I come from a family where both my parents were educators and my dad was my high school principal, so there's been plenty of weddings and things that he was able to see... That was his own experience. We won't go into that too much. But it's been really powerful to hear him for my entire life, talk about the impact, not only that he's been able to see that he's had on the students, but the same impact that those students have made on him. What has been the impact that your students have made on you?

E-Ben:  Wow. Great question. This tells me you definitely do come from family of Educators.

Beth:  I have to turn everything into a Socratic method, essentially.

E-Ben:  Of course, of course.

Beth:  It's just asking you a question.

E-Ben:  This is what you learn in first year program, y'all. What I love is, I think what I gain from my students is a sense of daring. I think it's that sense of thinking outside the box, because many of my students did not grow up in the world I grew up in. Many of them grew up in... I teach in Green Bay, Wisconsin, which everyone knows is home of the Packers, which the Packer fans don't have to worry about that. Go Steelers.

Amelia:  Nice.

E-Ben:  But, as a teacher in a smaller city, I have students who frequently go out into the North Woods, or they frequently will get in touch with nature, or small town stuff, and it lets me realize that there is life beyond a small town environment or a smaller city environment and that I learn from them, sometimes the simple things, can sometimes be more impactful than the big, the grandiose theatrical stuff. I also have learned too, common sense don't always have to wear a three piece suit and carry a briefcase.

Amelia:  So true.

Beth:  Accurate.

E-Ben:  The fact that I can talk to students and colleagues, and be pretty honest and pretty level with them for the most part, and realize, that I'm a big believer in critical thinking. But, sometimes I like when students can sometimes turn on the adults and make them think outside of their comfort zone, I guess.

Beth:  Sure. That's one of the best things about working with any kind of marginalized group, especially if you're somebody, in this case, you have an ability that maybe somebody else doesn't. Being able to reflect upon, not only the privilege of that ability, but also it forces you to think about where other people are coming from, and I know that from your background, diversity, equity, and inclusion is so important to you. Can you speak a little bit about what got you interested in diversity, equity, inclusion clubs at St. Lawrence, and the kind of initiatives that you're involved in, in your community?

E-Ben:  Oh, god, you've done your homework.

Amelia:  Lifelong learner right there.

E-Ben:  No doubt, no doubt. The St. Lawrence difference. I love it. I think what made me very interested in these areas was, having gone to schools in New York City, which was very much having the world at your fingertips, albeit the segregated world, mind you, and going to St. Lawrence, it was like the polar opposite of what I experienced. To go from a big city where it was 50 shades of brown, and everything around, to a predominantly very white, very rural, very privileged environment, it threw me for a loop. I think when you go to a place like St. Lawrence, you have to know who you are before you step foot there. There's no way in that. Classmates who were generations deep in St. Lawrence, right alongside of us who were, we were the first in our families to go to college. We were first gen college students, which I wish y'all had t-shirts for that when I was in school, but that's okay.

I think with getting involved with a lot of the different DEI organizations, and I really struggled with some of those terms, because to me, it was more like you had to have a niche within campus life at St. Lawrence, and I think for me, diversity piece is super important because it's about survival. In my case, coming from the Bronx, everything was hinging on day to day survival. Then, go to St. Lawrence and you have to worry about somebody complaining about their food card to go today didn't work. I'm just like, okay, big privilege issues there. But also, I think I probably was for some of my classmates, one of the first black people that they came across, and I would sometimes mention the classmate that I never went to school with white people, or I had very few interactions with white people my age, and I would have people's jaws literally dropped.

They would completely be dumbfounded by that, and I said, "No, we do live a very segregated world, and I hate that." That's unfortunately, our reality, and part of the reason I figure being part of the DEI work since St. Lawrence, while as a student, but also throughout my career, is because I don't like the idea of people feeling isolated. I don't like the feeling of exclusion. I think people need to realize that wherever you go in this world, you're going to bring who you are to the table. In spite of the histories, in spite of our cultures, in spite of all the things that are thrown as a barrier or whatever, or impediment, we still have the ability to move with ourselves at that place, to move to Wisconsin. In order for me to live in Wisconsin, I have to understand life in the north country. Okay? Because no one can tell you more about the cold, than someone who's lived in the Arctic Circle, better known as Canton, NY .

Amelia:  And among cows and dairy.

E-Ben:  Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. The thing to consider is, I love the fact that working in DEI work, it's not about anything that's tokenism, it's not about noblesse oblige. It's about, this is where I'm a stakeholder in my community. I want to make, wherever I work, wherever I live, whomever I'm with, better. I want to be able to say that where I am, has been a better place because I hopefully, played a role in that, and I'm not one of those people that have to be loud and proud about it. You won't see me run around on billboards with that, but I think it's important to make your mark wherever you go, and I think at St. Lawrence doing those DEI, being a part of those organizations, let people know that, yes, I'm just as much part of this campus, as someone who has been here, who's people been here for generations, who really were part and parcel of the St. Lawrence experience.

I think the St. Lawrence experience for me, may have been a little different, than someone who had grown up knowing this. I didn't know jack about St. Lawrence, and I can talk more about that later, but I didn't know what the culture was like, till I actually was immersed in it. I learned that part of the DEI work is, I had to learn that you can't just be a student all day, you have to be a bit more of a well-rounded individual all day. And sometimes, it's a bit more concentrated, a little bit more focused, because when you're a student of color, you almost are dealing with breaking a lot of mold, a lot of stereotypes, a lot of odds, that many of my peers never had to encounter.

Beth:  It's like you almost have to be the representation for an entire race or an entire culture.

E-Ben:  An ambassador.

Beth:  Yeah. You're like, "Hello. I'm E-Ben, the black ambassador from the Bronx. Here you are." Yeah. We had an interview last year, with somebody who I took some classes with Dzifa Yador '11, and she and I talked a lot about how you would talk about race and class, and everybody's head would turn and look at her as if like to get approval.

Amelia:  You are the authority on these things.

E-Ben:  I was in class at St. Lawrence and I cussed a student out for it. We're still friends, but I kind of was like, I don't give off the attitude of I can speak for any one whole population. I can give you my take and my take only, and it's almost like the views that E-Ben Grisby has, is not going to have a bearing on the whole crux of black life, or Native American life, or fill in a blank life. Just like I would never assume Beth, "Hey, you could tell me all there is about white women and what white women go through." You could tell me what it is from your world, that's going to be different from someone who grew up in Mississippi, or someone who grew up on a reservation, or someone who grew up even in the Bronx, like I did. That's going to be vastly different.

Amelia:  It's sort of interesting to hear you talk about that, because I feel like from how you've been sharing that mindset has also influenced your work and special education too, of each person is an individual. Each person brings their own uniqueness to the table and their own purpose, and you seem to have this drive for people to be empowered in that purpose, that they all have. And so, that's really exciting to hear about and to hear that that's your motivator, regardless of whether it's for St. Lawrence or for your community, in Wisconsin.

E-Ben: Oh, absolutely. Thank you. I think what people don't realize is, whatever you bring, whatever your background is, it's going to go with you wherever you go. It's like when I tell my students, whenever I do an IEP meeting, which is basically to see how to best help them with their disability. I tell them the IEP is a compass, not a crutch. It is a walking stick. It is not a crutch. And, parents, when I mention that admin like that, and I said, "The reason is your compass or your North Star, it's giving you the ability to see, there's life beyond these four walls." It's like, for me, there's more to life than St. Lawrence, but thank God for St. Lawrence, because without my experience at university, I wouldn't be able to impart some of those things to the next level. I could, but it would be taken with a different lens, I guess.

And also, I think to come in to a place like St. Lawrence, you have to learn that you have to have those compasses. So, people who play a big role, as being my North Star, in a way, of realizing, hey, if I want better for myself, outside of your family, saying, hey, I can believe in you and I can believe in myself, but there are other people in there who value and appreciated my presence and my knowledge, and those things. That was huge. It's like that with my students, it's like that in my community. It's just one of those things that, I may not make a big loud case for, but I do think that had I not had a place like St. Lawrence, there's no telling what could have happened.

Beth:  I think that's really powerful to hear, and I think that's one of the biggest things that we try to impart upon students, about a liberal arts education in general, but specifically the St. Lawrence Liberal Arts experience, is that the whole point is that you try to learn about a diverse viewpoint. It doesn't matter if you're studying geology or sociology, or whatever the case might be, we're trying to get you to understand different perspectives, how they can relate and how they don't, and how does that fold into our understanding of the greater world around us?

Ultimately, something that I have, through the diversity, equity, and inclusion work that I do, both at St. Lawrence and outside of it, it's all about belonging, at the end of the day. Right?

E-Ben:  Absolutely.

Beth:  I really think that the work that you're describing that you do, not only as a profession, but what you're speaking to, is ultimately with the goal of belonging. You want people to belong regardless of their differences or their viewpoints, and I know that you said you wouldn't put this on a billboard about the work that you do and such, but you were honored with an award, what was it? This past year, you were celebrated as a man of excellence, for all of your fantastic work that you've done within your school district and within the community, as well. So, am I correct in saying that you are the Co-Chair for Celebrate Diversity Fox Cities, as well?

E-Ben:  That's correct. That is so correct. I have been for a number of years, and having worked with Celebrate Diversity over the last number of years, it was the merging of two organizations, that became the current iteration of Celebrate Diversity. When I moved out here in 2004, I didn't know what was available, in terms of diversity. I didn't know what was out here, in terms of it being pretty welcoming. I would tell you, I could go for weeks without seeing another brown person. I could walk down the street, I'm like, "There are no black people here. This is going to be very interesting." And, in my line of work, I was usually one of a handful of professionals of color, be it a teacher, even before I was a teacher and I worked in public relations, I was usually one of the few blacks that were not in the mail room or working in the custodial staff, or what have you.

I think it's super important for people to realize that you're coming into this work, because you want to feel like this is your place. Your place as someone who's been here forever. With Celebrate Diversity, the fact that we get to talk about issues, that many times often overlooked in society... Now, I've become quite, I hate to use the term trendy, a lot of people want to say, "Well, I want to talk about DEI work," and it's like, I've lived this. I can't just slough it off dead skin on my body. Or, oh, it's like having a tan, and then once two weeks expires, oh, I'm back to normal. No, no, no, no, no. This is actual work. It's some people, in my case a life mission, to ensure that people realize that we bring ourselves to the table, and what we bring to the table, are going to be different from other people. But, at the same time, what are some of those commonalities that we have, at the end of the day?

Celebrate Diversity, what I like is when we do our community conversations, and we talk about issues being on politics, being on poverty, being on race, being on gender, it's important to talk about those issues, because we don't have civil discourse, as much as we used to. I feel like we're more informed, we have more information at our fingertips, and yet people go away more polarized, than they were even 25 years ago, when I was a student. That's scary. I grew up with three channels, cable was there if you had money, cable wasn't there if you didn't have money, but I felt like we still had things to tie ourselves to, to connect ourselves with, and now, it's almost like we've gone into factionalism.

The fact that Celebrate Diversity is trying to find ways to bridge things together, to build that sense of community, to feel like, no, we know this area, Northeast Wisconsin, where I live, it's a lot better than many places. Still has a lot of work to do. I think to live in areas where you've never had to encounter those conversations and have those real discussions, it's eye-opening on either side. I think for people of color, as well as for white people, to realize that if you're going to talk about diversity and inclusion, you got to be willing to open up.

You have to be willing to have a certain degree of trust, you have to have a certain degree of civility, you have to have a certain degree of willingness to listen and to hear what is being said to you, or with you, and to do it in a way where you're not cutting someone down. Because I think it's easy for a lot of people to just say, "Eh, what you're going through, that's not my reality, therefore I don't care." I've had that happen so many times, I don't even want to go there with people. But, I had that happen at an early age, which can affect your self-esteem, but also can make you a lot more... I think for me, a lot more of a fighter and push the message that, I want people to feel like they've got some skin in this game.

Beth:  I think that that's one of the most important aspects of any of this kind of work, is to realize that even if something doesn't maybe directly affect you, you still play a role in whether it is upholding a system or helping to break down barriers. And so, you can make it a part of your reality, if that's something that you're inspired to do. You may not be the same exact lived experience or reality, but you can be a part of that, and I think that hearing about Celebrate Diversity, it sounds like that's really great work to get people inspired to do that.

E-Ben:  Yeah, it's been one of those things that I really enjoy being a part of and being able to have the privilege of co-chairing with a retired teacher, who we worked years ago together, in another district. It's great because we bounce ideas off of each other. She's an older white woman, and I'm me, and we were fighting, in terms of equity in those things at my previous school district, because the bottom line is, the population was diversifying. But, our teaching pool doesn't reflect that, and it's not about doing this stuff for the short term, or doing it because you watched something on the news that made you upset. It's just because this is stuff that's happening and it's affecting people personally. It's affecting their neighbors, it's affecting family members, and I think in today's world, having access to internet, having access to cell phones, you can't avoid these realities anymore.

You can't just say, "Oh, that's just hearsay. Oh no, that can't really happen. Oh, no. Oh, I know people who don't do that," and it's like, we know you don't. However, these are some of the things that we've been discussing for a very long time. It kind of goes back to why for St. Lawrence, for me, it was great to have that educational experience, but it made it possible for me to say, let's think critically about why these things have happened. Why have these things systematically been in place? Does that mean that everyone is racist? No. But, does that mean that there isn't racism, in the mix?

Amelia:  Sure.

E-Ben:  I kind of leave that answer open to people's interpretation. I think that's something that having that liberal arts college education plays a huge role in the discussions of adding depth and adding that certain flavor, that you might not get elsewhere.

Amelia:  I feel like too, with the liberal arts education, you get comfortable with hard questions, and you get comfortable with no easy answers, and that discomfort is really important to being able to recognize that your lived experience is different from someone else's lived experience.

E-Ben:  Right, and that you can't get at a... I mean, if I went to any of the large public schools, and I'm not going to knock any of the large public universities, but you're just a name in a crowd. I always suggest to people, this is just mine, my suggestion, if you want to do DEI work, it's great to do it at a big university, but the impact isn't the same. At a small university, a liberal arts college, a mid-size liberal arts school, you have a lot more ability to have legacy. You have a lot more of a way for people to remember, "Hey, I remember this alum, he did this, she did that, they did this, and it really impacted me on that level," because now you get to have a classmate or a handful, you may have be in a room of 12 or 15 people, and you can have that discussion, and you can break it down after that class is done.

You can talk about that, when you're an alum, and that may play a role in why you give back. I've always been a believer in, whether it's Celebrate Diversity, whether it's as an educator, whether it's as student slash alum, giving back has always been a big part of my life. I'm a big believer in stewardship. You want to make the environment a better place, you got to do your part. If you want to make a community better, you got to do your part. Can't just say, "Oh, I'll wait for somebody else to do it and pick up the slack." No one in history will ever just say, "Hey, I'm going to let that other person do it."

Beth:  No one who's memorable, at least, said, "Oh, I'll just let somebody else do it."

E-Ben:  Yeah, right. Exactly. Like Dr. King, I don't think he would be like, "You know, Rustin, you do this for me. I know you got me."

Beth:  My friend had a dream. I don't think... That wasn't his speech.

Amelia:  That wouldn't be nearly as catchy.

E-Ben:  He had a dream and no, that's not going to work. It wasn't like, hey, JFK just said to relatives, hey Ted, you want to tell him about my story for moving space race? No, it wasn't going to happen that way. We had to put our own stake on it, and it may not necessarily come out perfect, but I tell people in my life, DEI work is never perfect. Education is not perfect. There are going to be a lot of questions that sometimes still going unanswered. There are going to be times where you're going to leave people a little baffled, because you're asking those questions with intensity and that depth. But, you also want to make people realize, that if you don't ask those deep questions, and basically, you just see everything as easy, and that's not right either.

Beth:  Something that you said that I really appreciate is, understanding and inspiring people to see that they have a place at the table. You have a chair at the St. Lawrence table, if you've gone to St. Lawrence, and sometimes I know that if you don't see people who are actively engaged, who have had a similar experience to you, whether that be because of your identity, or because of the kinds of clubs and activities you were involved in, or your major, it could be harder to say, "Oh yeah, I've got a seat at that table." But, you're somebody who is still very involved with St. Lawrence, and has been a link mentor, and has done work with admissions, and all these different people. Can you talk a little bit about, was a part of your inspiration to give back, just because you have that sense of, oh, I need to give back? Or, was there something deeper? Was it about, I want to make sure that other people who may be from the Bronx, can see that they have a seat at the table, even after St. Lawrence?

E-Ben:  I think a little bit of both, that you just mentioned, Beth. But, you got to remember for me, I didn't have a ton of role models, in general, and I mean I did, but not a whole lot. I would say that St. Lawrence made it a place where going in, it's like my family. But, when you go to college and you have professors, and advisors, and coaches, who sit there and they're like, "Let me level with you. You're a smart person who's not using your full potential, and let's see how we can make that shine. Or, we can put that out there." I think that's super important, because I think many of us think that when we graduate from college, all is well, we don't have to talk much more.

But, I think especially, as educators of color or alums of color, I think it's sometimes more magnified because you may be one of the few people that you come across with a college education. You may be one of the few people around, who've had similar backgrounds, or what have you, and wherever you go, you're going to put that part of yourself out there. I think it's super important to say the deeper meaning for me is, I like to be able to pay it forward and pass that baton. I always would say I'm more of that reluctant leader sometimes, where it's like, I can lead, but man, if I don't have to...

Beth:  I feel you.

E-Ben:  Well, I also have learned that if not now, then when, and if not me, then who? I think the truth of it is we have to look at, as an alumnus, it's important to realize, I want current students and alumni to realize, we do have a way to help others out. It doesn't have to always be financial, it sometimes it's as much of purpose and a sense of duty, and I think it's a sense of responsibility. Ensure that the next generation doesn't keep repeating what previous generations have done, about making the next generation more astute, in terms of working with themselves, looking at what they want to do while as student, what they want to do maybe in the future as a career, because there's some things that your professors can't solve for. Your parents can't solve for you. Your drinking buddies can't solve.

They certainly can't solve it for you. But, if you're part of any crew, any sports team, sorority, fraternity, you got to remember, they're going to be some of those people who will pull you to the side and kind of school you on things, but they're going to be people who are going to just say, "Hey, you just here to have a good time four years, and that's that." And it's like, no. Yes, have some fun, but get some serious critical thinking that's going on in the process. I always tell people, more learning comes from outside the classroom, than within. The last one kind of gives you the model, but you have taken the approach and the application of said learning.

Amelia:  In that vein of taking responsibility and participating, and also paving the way for the next generation, I'm curious, what are your hopes for the St. Lawrence community, 20 years down the road?

E-Ben:  Umm, except I would hope that there would be more direct flights to St. Lawrence.

Amelia:  Isn't that the truth?

E-Ben:  Okay.

Beth:  From your lips to the air traffic controls ears.

E-Ben:  I tell you, the fact that there's actually Southwest going to Syracuse, I was like, "Yes!" But, I think in terms of giving back to the next generations, letting them know that we understand, is a sense of, I understand what you've been through. I may not have come from the same exact background, but there's a certain empathy, there's a certain realization, that this can be a very tough place for you if you isolate. If you're willing to give this place a chance, you're willing to give St. Lawrence a chance, just like any place you've been, you will have the most broadest horizons if you give it just a glimmer of chance. There's so many possibilities at a place like St. Lawrence, where now for me, thank God I was on student government. I have to say, because often people would assume you had to learn about government just in a government class.

Even though I didn't major in government, I majored in history, which is his cousin and majored in history and sociology, I like to see how the mechanisms of government work. I like to see how our role in the society plays a role with the governmental structures. I think it's important to understand that that helped me understand how to work with local officials in my area. It lets me realize that if we say, we, the people, that means all of us have a claim here, that if we really want things to get better for the next generation, we have to start thinking wisely. But, also connecting, having students and younger alums connect with some of us who are the OGs in the room, some of us who graduated 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 years and beyond, because the stories that they have currently, might be the same thing that we dealt with 25 years ago, that someone who dealt with 50 years ago.

But, maybe the approach is a little different. Maybe how we connect could be a little different. Maybe how we are able to break those barriers are better. The fact that I can see students coming in from, I'm like, I'm frustrated as St. Lawrence for not having more native students on campus, because St. Lawrence was a huge bastion of Native American... Not huge, sizable, Native American population. The fact that once we had those alums like Norman Tarbell Sunday, who I love, when she left the HEOP program, it was like, oh, neighboring schools took it upon themselves to work on it. To me, I would say that's a major hurdle I think St. Lawrence has to work on is, if you're going to deal with DEI, you can't just do it as long as you have people who look like those people, who make this just as much an important case, whether you have said representation or not.

We want you here, and even if we don't have staff on campus, maybe there are alums who can work alongside, as a consultancy basis. That's why I think it's important to do link mentoring, to let folks know, hey, why are we doing what we're doing? This is why I do this stuff with Celebrate Diversity, to let people know, that you're not the only person in the community who feels this way, but also their safety and numbers and knowing that empowerment comes sometimes, with having other people being willing to listen and understand what those challenges are coming from, and understand that if you want to make your claim in history, it's not always by being a big name, it's not about being a celebrity. A lot of times, it's not about giving away lots of money.

It's a lot of times just giving time, because I would love to see a Grisby center for this, that, and the other. Maybe that might happen, I don't know. But if I'm willing to say, "Hey Beth, are there young alums in here, in the community, who need some support?" Or, "Hey Amelia, are there people in the neighborhood, whether in Wisconsin or whether in New York, or Illinois, wherever," and you want them to have lunch with you, just to touch base on some things, or connect with students who are otherwise, not feeling so connected on campus. Who I think we forget about, because we have all the kids who are your top 10 or your top 10% who are the movers and shakers. A lot of times you forget about those students who have just been sliding through.

There's a lot of leaders within those, that realm, many of them probably didn't feel that they had a place or felt like they belonged, because maybe it wasn't of interest or importance for them at university, but maybe afterwards, they were like, "Maybe I need to connect with that person, and maybe we weren't the best of friends at university, but maybe now as adults, we're now older, our hands get a little grayer, time is fleeting, so we might also connect with each other now," and it's kind of making amends for realizing that, "Hey, maybe I didn't understand some of these things once upon a time." There's no time like the present. Let's see how we can build upon that.

Beth:  I think that's such a wonderful place to end our conversation. I want to thank you so much, for the time that you've given us today. I think that... I don't know about you, Amelia, I feel inspired and now I'm sitting back, and be like, "Okay, what are the ways that I can give my time?" Because I do think that time is the most valuable currency that we have. So, I want to thank you even for donating your time to chat with us.

Amelia:  Yes, thank you.

Beth:  But, also thank you for all the work that you do, not only within your community and in your school district, but with St. Lawrence, and beyond. There's probably hundreds of students and community members, alums, current students at St. Lawrence who are better off because of the way you have treated them or informed them of various different topics, that are important for all of us to hear.

E-Ben:  Glad to hear that. I hope I didn't scare some of them off.

Beth:  I don't think so. I have a hard time believing that.

E-Ben:  I hope it wasn't because they were afraid. But, I thank you and I appreciate you for you all, and Megan reaching out with me after meeting with me during reunion. It took me a long time to come back to St. Lawrence, and I realized I was a little wistful at points because it was like, "Wow, things have changed." Things are still similar, but it's after the school year is done, so you don't see all of the students, but it would be great to make sure that these aren't one and dones. That when we do have these conversations, we could always rebuild, or follow-up, or reconnect too, just to let people know, "Hey, I'm still wanting to let you know that I still love this place and I'm active, and I wanted to do whatever I can to help.

Beth:  Absolutely.

Amelia:  Definitely.

Beth:  Well, thank you so much, E-Ben. We so appreciate you.

Amelia:  Thank you.

E-Ben:  I appreciate y'all too.

[Music Plays]

Amelia:  And, there we have it. Beth, I think that'll be the last time I get to say a, "There we have it."

Beth:  Oh, that's so sad to think about, Amelia.

Amelia:  Anyway, E-Ben was just a delight to chat with and you could really feel his warmth just exude through the computer screen and his voice, and just the way that he looks at the world and sees value in everyone that he encounters, and wants to just celebrate the impact of community, and make sure that everyone feels the value that they have. What about you, Beth?

Beth:  Yeah, I think, again, we hear a lot about community and impact consistently, when we're on campus and after we graduate, and I really like that he's example of somebody who truly thought about, what's the impact I want to make on my community, whether it's based off of identities, or based off of past experiences, or loved ones. I really appreciated hearing all of his perspectives, and the various ways that he gives back and gives through, the organizations he's a part of. But, I'm excited because I really think this tees us up well for a conversation we are going to have in October, with an incredibly special guest.

Amelia:  Yes. I can't wait for all of you to hear that, so be sure to tune in next month, for a very special interview with Scarlet and Brown Stories.

Beth:  Absolutely. Well, Amelia, for all of us on the podcast, we want to thank you for everything that you've done to get this podcast off the ground, and for being such a wonderful co-host. Until next time, thank you so much, Laurentians, for listening.

[Music plays]

Beth:  Scarlet and Brown Stories is edited and produced by Amanda Brewer, Megan Fry Dozier, Dennis Morreale, Beth Dixon and Amelia Jantzi.

Amelia:  Our music was written by Christopher Watts, inspired by Eugene Wright, class of '49.

Beth:  Subscribe to Scarlet and Brown Stories on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and wherever you listen to podcasts.

Amelia:  If you have a story you'd like to submit to us, you can email us at connect@stlawu.edu.

[Music Ends]

[Theme Music Plays]

 Beth:  Hello everyone. And welcome back to another edition of Scarlet and Brown Stories, a St. Lawrence University podcast, where we discuss some of the stories of Laurentians who are doing all these interesting, wonderful things. We are starting off season two with somebody who has not just an interesting background, but has their own unique St. Lawrence story, which is kind of a different mode than what we've done in past episodes. And that person is Cooper McCrillis. We are so excited that have him kind of tell us a little bit about what it was like being a student during the COVID-19 pandemic when he was abroad in Kenya. And like so many of the students who were abroad at that time, oh, well, all of the students who were abroad at that time, his time abroad was cut short.

 Beth:  He graduated in 2021, and it is exciting to have him back where he can talk a little bit about not only his experience and his story about what it was like when the program was canceled. But we're also going to hopefully hear a little bit about what his upcoming plans are this summer, which include going back to Kenya to have a kind of a bookend trip. So without further ado, let's kick it off and kick it into our interview with Cooper McCrillis class of 2021.

 [Music Plays]

 Dennis:  Here we are with Cooper McCrillis, class of '21. Cooper had a very interesting kind of career at St. Lawrence as a student. Rather than giving you the kind of resume overview, I was thinking for this episode, why don't we start at the beginning? Not necessarily literally, but you were here, let's just say, at a very interesting time. And so I think your story will sort of speak for itself. So when you came into St. Lawrence, who were you at the time? What were you kind of bringing to the table?

Cooper:  Oh, thanks Denny. And thanks for welcoming on to the podcast this afternoon. And yeah, I had quite an interesting adventure at St. Lawrence. I enjoyed the pre pandemic St. Lawrence and then the pandemic St. Lawrence and then a little bit of the post pandemic St. Lawrence.

Dennis:  I'm going to get my math here probably embarrassing wrong, you came in 2018, in the fall?

Cooper:  2017.

Dennis:  2017, yeah.

Cooper:  Yes.

Beth:  So yeah, Cooper, tell us a little bit, who were you when you first came into St. Lawrence? What maybe made you want to come to St. Lawrence?

Cooper:  Well, I think sort my biggest attraction to St. Lawrence when I was looking at schools, I was always interested in sort of a small liberal arts college, somewhere in the Northeast. And my dad graduated from St. Lawrence on the mid eighties. So that was sort of always an attraction to me. He was always interested in me going to St. Lawrence, but never was a huge push. He always wanted me to make my own decision. And I think my first tour that I had at St. Lawrence was a really rainy late spring day.

Beth:  The most beautiful time of year.

Cooper:  Exactly. It was pouring rain. We were trying to run between buildings with the tour guide. And I just remember being sort of infatuated with how friendly and how happy people were on campus, even though it was a miserable weather day. And I instantly sort of realized, man, if people are this happy and welcoming in this type of weather, I can only imagine what people are like when it's sunny and 60 degrees out or something like that. And I was always a big fan of the outdoors too. So Canton offering so many outdoors opportunities with the Adirondacks nearby, Lake Placid, Adirondack Mountains, waterfalls, et cetera. So that was a huge draw. And then just, I think the alumni network, I knew about that through my dad telling me stories and knowing how important that would be in a college experience for me was pretty important.

Cooper:  And I ended up doing a summer program, the summer before my senior year of high school, where I met, who then ended up being my St. Lawrence roommate from Keene New Hampshire. So we met at this summer program in New Hampshire and St. Lawrence ended up being there for a college fair day. So I talked to some people from admissions then, ended up getting accepted, ended up showing up the same, accepted students day with my friend from that summer program. We had no idea that we were both going to St. Lawrence. And then we were like, man, we should be roommates. And we ended up being roommates for just about all four years.

Beth:  That's incredible. I don't know too many people who go to college with a roommate in mind, especially one that they didn't go to high school with. So that's a pretty incredible story. So what was the summer program and how did you guys bond so quickly?

Cooper:  Yeah, so we did something called the St. Paul's advanced study program, which is based in Concord, New Hampshire, and it's for sort of the top seniors in each high school in New Hampshire. And so you go there for about a month, you take sort of a specific major course that you're interested in, and it's supposed to prepare you for college. You also do a writing workshop where you focus on writing your college essay, things like that. So it's a big sort of college prep courses for about a summer. And so we ended up living in the same. We were taking different classes, but living in the same dorm that summer, and that's how we met.

Dennis:  So you're kind of moving along. Things are going well when you get here. I sense that just looking at your kind of resume. You immediately get involved in a bunch of leadership opportunities.

Cooper:  Right. Yes, definitely. Yeah. Right away I got involved with SLU EMS, which is all student run, collegiate EMS on campus.

Dennis:  That's great.

Cooper:  Yeah. Which was a lot of fun and certainly added a lot of extra hours and busyness to my schedule, but something that I really enjoyed. And then I got pretty heavily involved with class council right away freshman year. And that carried right through all four years.

Dennis:  Yeah. No, that's great.

Beth:  Because I think it's important to mention you were the class president for the class of 2021, which I'm sure had a very different field than maybe the class of mm, 2019 post pandemic or current pandemic, I should say, at the time must have definitely changed how class councils were run.

Cooper:  For sure. It was quite a unique experience because the first, I guess, freshman, sophomore year, it was really normal around campus. There was no pandemic restrictions. We had no knowledge of the pandemic was going to occur, was sort of all systems go. All the fun weekend events were still happening. Class council was planning lots of ways to get our class together for different activities, fundraising, et cetera. And then 2020 came around and the pandemic started, and we had to figure out how we were going to plan safe events, how we were going to fundraise safely for senior week. And then of course, starting to figure out that senior week would maybe become a senior weekend. Commencement would get, I guess, severely altered. And that was certainly quite an experience to navigate through and trying to help our class understand how we could make a positive out of such a negative situation and sort of being able to quell some of the frustrations that people were having too.

Dennis:  That is really interesting. And that's sort of getting into the place where I feel like your story gets really interesting, right. I'm wondering if you could take us to January of 2020, put us in your viewpoint a little bit, and what was going through your mind with that? You're getting ready for a big semester. I mean, that's the spring of your junior year. It's a semester that a lot of people traditionally will study abroad and you were among them.

Cooper:  Correct. Yeah. I was packing up and getting ready to head off to Kenya, which I was super excited about, something that I had wanted to do since freshman year when I heard about the famed St. Lawrence Kenya semester program. I actually had a couple friends that in my class 2021 that were Kenyan classmates.

Dennis:  Oh nice.

Cooper:  And so I had interacted a lot with them, became really good friends with them, and that really sparked my interest to want to go to Kenya. So then of course, hearing about the Kenya semester program, I was like, that's a perfect opportunity. I remember text my mom that I was accepted. And she thought I said that I was going to Canada for a semester abroad. And she was super, super excited. And oh, we'll come visit you. And that'll be great. And then I said, no, no mom, it's not Canada. I'm going to Kenya. And of course that really surprised her. And she had to take a minute to understand that. Then once she understood what I was going to do, she was really excited. But yeah, we were packing up in January. We arrived in Kenya with, I think there's 27 of us from St. Lawrence.

Dennis:  Was it you and a crew of friends all applied together or were you kind of going in blind to just meet a new group?

Cooper:  Yeah, that's a really good question. So it was me and one other friend who I was pretty close with. And then as the rest of us, it was just pretty blind. We had a very diverse group of students, which I think made the experience really, really awesome. We had people that were heavily involved in athletics, people that were involved in Greek life, people that were involved in clubs. So it wasn't really just one giant group of friends.

Beth:  That's great.

Dennis:  That's one of the coolest things about the abroad programs I think. I did the France program. I had one person who was a friendly acquaintance. I would say it was also 26, 27 people, very similar in numbers to yours. But it was basically all new people, and you start out not knowing them, and by the end, they're still people that you think warmly about all these years later that really just each and every person kind of leaves a mark on you, who you do those experiences with.

Beth:  That's so funny because I studied abroad in London and about half of my program were from my FYP, and that was completely not planned. I was like, oh, so I guess we're just doing FYP in London now. So which ended up now we do have an FYP program in London. That just ended up being so funny. And so the other people who I didn't know, we quickly all kind of bonded, which was great. Do you feel like, Cooper, that the Kenya program, obviously, like you said, it's a famed program, it invites so many diverse people from different backgrounds and identities to go to Kenya. Do you feel like that group of people or some of the people that you still connect with very strongly as an alum?

Cooper:  Yes, for sure. I felt like I made some really strong connections in Kenya with the different host families that I stayed with throughout the program. And I still remain in really close contact with them today, as well as the different faculty and staff members that are based in Nairobi in Kenya on the compound, which I think is pretty cool because it's a whole different group of Laurentians that's completely across the globe in Africa, right. I mean, that's pretty special because we think of St Lawrence as an alumni network in the states, right. But realizing that so many alumni are spread out throughout the world, and there's such a fantastic cluster in Kenya and being able to sort of exploit that and stay in close contact with them I think is really, really special.

Beth:  It's incredible.

Dennis:  That's great. So I had tons of friends who went, did the Kenya program over the year, some of my best friends. And it does tend to attract a uniquely adventurous personality type. I would say similar to Adirondack semester a little bit. And actually those two programs, often there's a lot of overlap between who does what. But I would say that the average Kenya semester participant is more adventurous than the average France semester participant, which is what I did. Right.

Beth:  Or London.

Dennis:  Yeah. And so I know that I felt I was excited, but I was like a small town guy from the Adirondack who had never really left the US before. And it was something I wanted to do in terms of how I knew I wanted to grow and get that experience. But I was also quite terrified. I remember the night before leaving, being pretty terrified by the whole thing excited, but also, how were you feeling kind of the night before you were scheduled to leave?

Cooper:  Yeah, there was definitely a lot of nerves. I had never traveled outside the country before. I had traveled some around the United States, but never outside the country. And I think that at a night before it sort of all hit me, I wasn't just traveling to South America or up into Canada and in North America. I was traveling across the globe to the equator, to Africa to Kenya and realizing boy, I am really, really far away from home. And if something were to happen or whatever, just playing a bunch of scenarios overhead in my mind. And I sort of reached a point where I'm at an age where this is the time to do it. And I just sort of let it all go and said, I'm going to immerse myself as much as I can, enjoy every moment, and realize that this is probably something I'm never going to have another opportunity to do.

Beth:  That's really important. I think the other thing too, that I would be curious to hear your thoughts on, because the Kenya program does have elements of home stays and from various different times of the program and aspects of the program that is shared with, I think Rouen also has a home stay. Right, Denny?

Dennis:  It does. It does indeed. Yeah.

Beth:  And in London I had a home stay. I feel like a lot of my nerves, again, I was going to, arguably one of the closest countries in terms of what our culture is like to the US, but moving from Canton and being from the North country to one of the most, if not the most multicultural city in the world, was exciting. But I also was like, what if my host parents don't like me? And I was really worried about that.

Dennis:  I had that kind of thing too. Yeah.

Cooper:  Yep, me too.

Dennis:  As much as the different place thing, the host family thing was one of the biggest parts. It was just the idea of being kind of thrown into an entirely new family. That thing where you're in someone else's space in a very different way.

Beth:  A very extended house guest. And you're like, but I've never met you before. This is great. There was no... I don't know if it's the case now maybe you can shed some light on this, Cooper, but we were given virtually no information about them. They were like, here's the members of the names of the family that you're going to be going, and good luck when you get there, they're going to come pick you up. So I had no idea what their address was, nothing. Oh, that's actually not true. I guess I did send them a letter ahead of time.

Dennis:  That might be the one thing you get.

Beth:  The one thing I did get was the address. But I had no sense of who was I staying with? Granted that was in 2008 when I went, is it the same for Kenya in 2020?

Cooper:  Oh, it most certainly was. We arrived in Kenya. We had, let's see probably about five or six days before we would go to our first host family, which was based in Kericho, which is sort of, I'd say Western area of Kenya, very, very rural, so away from the capital city of Nairobi. And we got just like you said, Beth, we got a double sided sheet with the names of our host parents, names of our siblings, their occupation, and pretty much what they like to do for fun. And that was about it. And so it was like have at it. We had also taken three days of Swahili, which is one of the main languages in Kenya. We took like three days of Swahili.

Dennis:  Pretty much good to go then.

Beth:  Yeah, fluent. Fluent, yes.

Cooper:  I was very fluent. We were assured that at least one member of the house would speak some broken English.

Beth:  Perfect.

Cooper:  So I was like, this is a win-win. It sounds like we're set up for success.

Dennis:  Yeah, for sure.

Cooper:  I remember feverishly writing as many Swahili words in my notebook as I can. And hoping that when it came time for me to use them, that I could at least pronounce them correctly so maybe they'd understand what I was saying.

Beth:  The way I would've just been pointing to my notebook the entire time, like this word, this is what I mean.

Cooper:  Yes. When we arrived in Kericho, they had a ceremony sort of welcoming our group and the way that we were supposed to meet our host parents, where we all stood up and started dancing, and each host parent would make sort of prolonged eye contact with different students. And you were supposed to guess who your host parents were. And so they would come over and dance next to you, and they would look at you for a while. And you would think that was maybe your mother, but then this person would go and dance with someone else. So you would be really confused.

Dennis:  I have never heard of this. This is amazing.

Beth:  That's incredible.

Cooper:  Yeah.

Dennis:  Yeah.

Beth:  Meanwhile, they said in London, all right, that car that's pulling up, that's your car. Get in it.

Dennis:  Yeah.

Beth:  That's amazing. Now is that a cultural aspect of being in Kenya?

Cooper:  It was. Yeah. That was a typical sort of tribal welcome.

Dennis:  Oh, interesting. Yeah.

Cooper:  So right away we were immersed. And it was certainly a little awkward at first, but once we all started understanding what was going on, it was pretty special and pretty cool to watch how slowly students were able to figure out who their parents were. And yeah, it was pretty cool.

Dennis:  When you just heard the pitch for how it was going to, did you know how it was going to work before you started? Or was it kind of like, they just threw you out there into this area and then the dance starts, and then the process reveals itself and you figure it out as you go?

Cooper:  Yes, that's pretty much it. We were given like maybe two minutes heads up of what was going to happen. And then it was just sort of jump right in, and see what happens.

Dennis:  That's probably the easier way to do it. If I had, I would be very intimidated by it. I think it sounds very cool like one of those things that you look back on as an amazing life moment. But I don't know, it would make me very nervous, the process. Until you see it.

Beth:  I would've been overthinking it, right? Yeah.

Dennis:  Exactly.

Beth:  I would've been like, okay, so here's my plan of attack rather than being in the moment. That's such an interesting and amazing way to quickly get to know somebody, because I do think that dancing is ultimately a form of self expression as we know, but it's also a way for you to just kind of meet the environment where you're at. And so whether you're dancing, because you're out with your friends or in celebration at a wedding or whatever, we use dancing as meeting the energy of where we're at for a celebratory reason in different ways.

Beth:  What a beautiful way to be introduced to people who you don't know and have this understanding of you had to let go essentially of your ego at the door and just be in the moment and throw yourself into this experience. I think that's gorgeous.

Dennis:  Absolutely.

Beth:  So, okay. So you're introduced to your host family and that's within, like you said, the first couple of days of being in Kenya?

Cooper:  Yeah.

Beth:  What's the next, so I know that you do a few different host family visits and such, so how long are you with this family and then what else do you get out of that experience before the next portion of the program?

Cooper:  So we're with that family for about a week. And so we are fully immersed with this family. We are treated as either their son or daughter. So we're immediately treated as a member of the family. I remember going to bed that night, waking up early the next morning, right away, helping with farm chores, milking the cows, gathering some food for the day. They owned a tea plantation. So we went out and picked some tea leaves, which was a really neat experience. I was really lucky. My host brother was a year older than I was, and he was there while I was there. So we bonded really quickly, and he sort of took me under his wing for the week sort of showing me what he does on a day to day basis, which was really neat.

Dennis:  That's really cool.

Beth:  Oh, that's incredible.

Dennis:  And for this portion, are you seeing the other members of the program much?

Cooper:  No, no.

Dennis:  None.

Cooper:  Nope. So that's also sort of another special element of the program is we're all in the same area, but none of us know where our fellow classmates are. So they could be two houses or two compounds down the road, but that's the whole sort of, I guess, special component of the home stay as you know that people are nearby, but you don't exactly know. And so sometimes you would randomly see people walking down the road, and you'd say hi or something, but there was very little contact with the other students. We ended up getting together, I think one afternoon as a whole group to sort of talk about how the week had gone thus far, but that was our only contact that we had as a whole group with each other.

Beth:  I love that's very much an experiential education moment. It's something that St Lawrence is moving as much as we can in any capacity. We're trying to have a lot of these experiential education opportunities because you're going to remember that week in terms of getting to know a different culture, specifically a different culture within Kenya that maybe you would've if you were in Nairobi or at the compound, and you're learning aspects about a very different country than your own while at the same time putting into practice some of the things that you had learned ahead of time. Whether it's Swahili or the cultural aspects that maybe you had studied before you gotten there. I really I'm curious. Do you wish you had had more time?

Cooper:  Yeah, for sure. I felt like I had a really successful rural home stay, and I was really sad to leave. I could have gone for another couple weeks with them. I feel like that first night I clicked sort of instantaneously with them. Yeah. Which I think was, was really special because that was a huge anxiety of mine was how would I fit in with the family and would it be awkward? Would it just be the language barrier, things like that, would it be really tough to interact with them? And right after that sort of first night, I could tell it was going to be perfectly fine. And I don't know, all my fears just sort of washed away. And I was like, all right, I'm ready to just fully step into this experience.

Beth:  So after this portion of the program, what's the next part of the Kenya program?

Cooper:  Yeah. So at that point we headed back into Nairobi where we started our class portion of the semester. So we took classes nearby one of the colleges in Kenya, in Nairobi so in the city. We would spend sort of the evenings on the compound and then the days in the classroom in the city, which is a really neat experience. We got to sort of explore the city during sort of our lunch hour, got to interact with a lot of Kenyan professors, which was really fascinating. Some of these professors have been teaching for St. Lawrence for 20 plus years.

Beth:  Fantastic.

Cooper:  It was really neat, sort of picking their brains about the different groups that had come prior to us. And during that two or three weeks was when COVID-19 started to sort of rear its head.

Dennis:  In terms of the timeframe, are we talking your early February at this point?

Cooper:  Yes. Yep.

Dennis:  Okay. Yeah. Are you in contact with your parents back home very often?

Cooper:  I'd say frequently a couple texts here and there, but we weren't talking all the time. And that was sort of the beauty of the program, right, was to fully immersed yourself. So we were checking in, especially once I started to see what was happening in China. That was sort of the topic of conversation.

Dennis:  You were kind of taking it serious from early on. It was kind of on your radar then.

Cooper:  Yeah, it was. And I think a part of that was sort of my background in EMS and sort of the medical field. And I was definitely, out of all the students, I was probably one of the few that was really paying attention early on.

Dennis:  Right. So what was the mood among the students in general, as that's going on?

Cooper:  Sort of the mood was like, this is interesting, but we're in Kenya. People didn't see it affecting Africa as a continent. And then of course, Kenya, as a country, people were thinking, this is something that would be in China. They'll get a handle on it, and we'll sort of continue on. But yeah, most people weren't really batting an eye about it.

Beth:  To be fair, that was very much the case I felt like in the United States where thinking maybe in mid-February we had the first case is in Seattle or something like that, right? And we were kind of feeling like, oh no, it's horrible watching. I remember watching videos of people on the street collapsing and being like, oh, that's so heartbreaking, but I hope that they get a handle on it. I just remember most of us feeling like, all right, well, nah, man, this COVID-19 thing is really annoying because it's starting to affect supply chains as early as like February 2020. And that's like, I think the extent of where I was aware as a professional who's navigating the world.

Dennis:  Yeah, in February I was definitely not. It was like a bit of a curiosity, but I was like, I've heard this story before, swine flu and SARS. I mean, SARS is probably the big one that I remember everyone being freaked out about, but didn't exactly live up to the build up here. And so yeah, I can tell you for sure. I would've been among the ones on your program who was not paying any attention whatsoever. Yeah.

Beth:  I can guarantee that I was as well. So I think that the fact that you were paying attention and utilizing that EMS background is just goes to show you how much of a first of all, a forward thinker that you are, but also putting that liberal arts mind to use where you're taking wholistic pieces of information and going, Hmm, this might be something we want to pay attention to.

Cooper:  Yes. Yes, my liberal arts toolbox was certainly open at that point. Yeah.

Dennis:  So you had a couple weeks of class there at the compound, is that right?

Cooper:  Correct. And that also sort of went hand in hand with our urban home stay component.

Beth:  Gotcha.

Dennis:  Okay.

Cooper:  So we spent about a week or two on the compound, then transitioning to living with a family in Nairobi. And sort of throughout that, COVID was becoming more relevant. And I remember having some pretty interesting conversations with my urban family about COVID, and they seemed pretty interested in it. And I guess sort of when I realized it was starting to become such a big deal was the night that my urban host dad thought it'd be a good idea to go to the pharmacy and start stocking up on hand sanitizer stat.

Dennis:  Oh, interesting. Yeah.

Cooper:  Because he was following it really closely and seeing what was going on in China. And I thought, oh, this is good. That's forward thinking again, that's smart, great. And again, I didn't think it was going to be much of a big deal. And then sort of towards the end of that home stay component, I began to think maybe our trip could get cut short by a couple weeks.

Dennis:  So you were thinking as early as that, that could be a possibility.

Beth:  When was the end of your home stay in Nairobi? Are we talking now the end of February, or?

Cooper:  Yeah, at that point we were towards the end of February. Yeah.

Beth:  Still have about three weeks before it really starts hitting the fan.

Dennis:  And you go back to the compound at this point?

Cooper:  Correct. Yes.

Dennis:  Okay. And still taking classes?

Cooper:  Yeah. Still taking classes, still doing normal activities. Nothing had changed. We may have gotten an email from St. Lawrence saying that they were monitoring the situation, but it was more about the other study abroad locations.

Beth:  Because if we recall as well, once we get into March, Italy was one of the first places that was really hit. And we did have students in Italy and that kind of thing. So I can imagine you maintaining contact with some of your classmates who were at other places probably helped to also help you with understanding what was going on.

Cooper:  It did. Yeah. I had a really close friend on the Italy program. And I guess she had only been there for two or three weeks, and she sent me a message that she was getting evacuated, on her way home. And I was like, that's scary. That's not good. But again, I was thinking, okay, that's Italy.

Dennis:  It happens. Yeah, I mean, you hear every so often some programs get cut short, so it's not unprecedented that a single program might be cut short.

Beth:  So take us to, it's like go time for COVID now in March. When did you hear like what were the first maybe warning signs about potentially this is going to get cut short? And then talk us through getting the call that the program had to be canceled for the rest of the semester.

Cooper:  Well, right at the end of the urban home stay in Nairobi, it was announced that Kenya had their first confirmed COVID-19 case. And so that was when it hit me of, well, here it is. It's in Africa, it's now in Kenya. So here we go. I began thinking, that is what it is. Hopefully, they'll get it under control. I remember the second to last night, I believe before we left to go back to the compound, my dad and I were out for a drive. And just down the road from where I was staying, the Kenyan government was frantically building a isolation hospital.

Dennis:  Oh, wow.

Beth:  Oh, wow.

Cooper:  For COVID. And this was probably not even a quarter of a mile from where I was staying. So we had been watching the process, and that night we were out for a drive and we passed an ambulance with lights and sirens going with people sitting in there and the white gowns, the face masks, the face shields.

Cooper:  And I said to him, what are the odds that that's the second COVID patient in Kenya? And we got up the next morning and low and behold, there was now two COVID 19 patients. And so we were a car length away from this ambulance with that patient in the back. And at that point I was like, this is really getting serious. And realizing that this is a global pandemic, and here we are in Kenya, what's going to be the next move? So we went back to the compound, and we got ready for our spring break trip where we were going to be going out to the Masai Mara for a safari which was a huge highlight of the program, something that we had all been looking forward to for a while. And just before we left, we were told to pack all of our bags on the compound. Leave one bag on your bed, packed and ready to go in case we were to return early to fly home. And that's when we realized there's a good chance we might not make it much farther.

Beth:  Did you get to do the safari?

Cooper:  The story gets even more dramatic.

Beth:  Oh, my goodness.

Cooper:  So we arrive in the Masai Mara. We're supposed to be there for about five days. We arrive at night. We go on a game drive in the morning. So we're going out on safari in the morning. We meet with the Maasai Mara tribe. That night we got an email from the Dean of International Student Affairs saying that there's a good chance we were going to get evacuated the next couple days. So I went to bed, and the next morning I got up and I checked my phone. And I had an email with plane tickets in it.

Cooper:  And that's how we were told that we were getting evacuated which that was quite the feeling. And that definitely created some nervousness, some chaos. It was quite the way to figure it out. We sort of had an idea it was coming, but waking up and seeing that email. I mean, that was the first thing I saw on my phone when I got up in the morning was the plane tickets. And then an email saying if these flights get canceled, the US military was going to come and get us and bring us back to the US.

Beth:  Oh, my gosh.

Dennis:  Right, because that's the other issue, right? Is that they were, flights were getting canceled, stuff was getting shut down. And this was your first pandemic and your first abroad, unfortunately colliding.

Cooper:  Correct.

Dennis:  What was the sort of mood in the group at this point?

Cooper:  It was pretty tense. People were really worried at that point. People were trying to communicate with parents, trying to communicate with school. People were pleading with school to give us another week, give us another two weeks, just sort of thinking, well, this isn't really our issue yet.

Dennis:  Was there a counter move of like bring the chopper now? Kind of thing.

Cooper:  Yeah. Yes. And the school wanted to get us back before we went on safari. And the program directors bargained for one more week for us which was really, really nice of them and something that, I mean, obviously we knew, but no one else really knew about. So they already gave us a bonus week.

Dennis:  I see. Yeah.

Cooper:  Which obviously had a lot of risks attached to it. So yeah, we raced back to the compound. One group of us left the night we arrived, and then another group of us left the next day. And as we were flying out, so we flew from Nairobi to Dubai and then Dubai to JFK. And when we got on the flight out of Nairobi, we were informed that was going to be the last flight out.

Beth:  Wow.

Cooper:  Everything was going to be closed.

Dennis:  Yeah. So I mean, that second group, were you on the second group?

Cooper:  Yes. Yep.

Dennis:  What were you feeling at that point? What were your...

Cooper:  I really started getting nervous because I was like, okay, we're going to make it out of here, but now we might get stuck in Dubai. And here we are sitting on 787 jumbo jet with everyone around us wearing masks and some people wearing the white suits. And here we are a bunch of Americans.

Dennis:  Wow. Okay. Yeah. Did you have the masks?

Cooper:  No masks.

Dennis:  No masks.

Cooper:  And all we had was a little tiny thing of hand sanitizer and a couple wipes.

Beth:  Wow. And so you eventually get home though, right?

Cooper:  Yes.

Beth:  You're not still in Dubai right now, right?

Cooper:  No, no. And so when we arrived in Dubai was at the time when some of the US airports were like randomly closing for a day. And so there was...

Beth:  And clean everything. Yeah.

Cooper:  Yes. Yep. And they would stop allowing flights in, and they would divert you all over the place. So when we arrived in Dubai, we were hearing about that and hearing that JFK was closed and trying to scramble because all of us needed connector flights out of JFK to get back to where we lived. So that was very high stress. They put us in sort of a giant queue in Dubai and made us go through a sort of infrared temperature taking device. And we were told, if you had a temperature, you're going to be whisked out of there and taken out of the airport. And you're going to have to quarantine for a couple weeks in Dubai in a random location.

Dennis:  Wow. So I mean, if you had had a bout of something because of food affecting you or just like typical travel stuff, it could have potentially been a very different part of the story, right?

Cooper:  Correct.

Beth:  Thankfully you do get back from Dubai eventually, and you get home. So once you are home, is there a feeling of relief that you're home with your family? Is there a feeling of loss that you lost out on time from the semester?

Cooper:  Yeah. I'd say it was a huge loss because I knew that we were going to miss sort of the most exciting part of the semester, which was the internship for a month long at the end. And I was going to be working with the flying doctors. We were going to be doing like air medical transports.

Dennis:  Oh, wow.

Cooper:  Around Kenya, which I was really looking forward to, obviously, something that I had some background in. And then sort of arriving home, this was at the height of pandemic, right. So we arrived in New York. There was no one in the airport. And that's when I realized that this was truly a global pandemic, and this was truly affecting the United States. And when I arrived home, my dad picked me up, brought me home. I had no handshake, no hug, no contact. He gave me a mask. He was wearing gloves, put me in the back of the car. Quarantine was starting which I had no knowledge about. And when I arrived home, there was a trash bag outside the door. I had to take off all my clothes, put it in the trash bag. And go down to my basement where I would be essentially locked up for two weeks. And I had absolutely no contact with my parents except on the phone.

Beth:  Oh, my goodness.

Cooper:  So here I am sitting in the basement trying to think about how I was just in Africa, like 48 hours earlier, living my best life, studying abroad. And now here I am in the basement. I miss my parents, and now I can't have any contact with them for two weeks.

Beth:  And to also be in their house, but but like, oh no, can't talk with them at all. I can't imagine feeling like, oh, at least I get to see my parents and hug them and be with them and know that they're okay. But remembering what that mindset was, if anybody traveled at that time, when everyone was trying to get home for isolation and quarantining, a lot of people were like that where we were, mm, I can't touch you right now because I don't know where you've been. You don't know where I've been. At this point we're just trying to make sure that we're safe for each other.

Dennis:  Right. The transition back from abroad is a challenge in the best of circumstances, especially I think from the Kenya program. I think that reverse culture shock thing is very real. But in this particular environment, it seems like a uniquely challenging sort of life experience, I guess.

Cooper:  Definitely. Yeah, because you're right. Coming back home in a normal semester is a huge transition, and it's a huge culture shock coming home. Now adding the pandemic on top of that, it was a lot to try to sort of comprehend and figure out how our normal way of life was going to be severely altered for a period of time.

Dennis:  Were you aware at that point that the whole semester was done? Not just for you as someone who had been abroad, but for everyone? That had been announced basically that the students had been sent home from campus as well? Okay.

Cooper:  Correct. Yeah. I had known that. And so we were the last, I think, St. Lawrence Study Abroad Program to be sent home. So all resources I guess, were on our boat when it was time to go. So we sort of knew that it was just us, and sort of the focus was to get us home at that point. And yeah, I had a lot of friends that were on campus who were saying, oh, we're going home, but we're going to be back up in three weeks. And the normal semester will continue, which obviously we know quickly changed to we are done for a while.

Beth:  It's all online.

Dennis:  There wasn't a point when you thought that you might be getting sent back to campus or something? Like how were your classes being handled from that point on?

Cooper:  So the majority of our classes in Kenya ended at that point. So we ended up just sort of streamlining straight into finals. I had to write a bunch of term papers. I think there was one class that met a couple times on Zoom, but because of the sort of technology and the huge time difference in Kenya, that was pretty difficult to do. So they attempted that for, I think maybe one or two weeks. And then they went right into a final paper too.

Beth:  So this semester, obviously, doesn't end the way that you're hoping and I'm sure left a little bit of a hole in your St. Lawrence experience. And we know that navigating then your senior year with a pandemic, there were all these other challenges that came with, like you had mentioned earlier, making sure that you had been fundraising for senior week.

Beth:  And I would also point out that I had the pleasure of working with your class for the senior class gift and could not have worked with a better group of people who understood and basically said, we want our senior class gift to go to an emergency fund for students. And you took something that very easily people could have been bitter about and said, why are we giving at a time like this? And your class really stepped up and said, no, we're going to give to this because we saw the impact of how much student emergency funds are necessary. And you all stepped up in that way. Let's talk about the good things though. Which is that next, well, I guess, what next week at the time of us recording this at late June, you're going back to Kenya.

Cooper:  I sure am. Yes, yes.

Beth:  Talk us through. How did this come about? What are you doing and why are you going back?

Cooper:  That's a good question. I maintained really close connections with my host families throughout the pandemic and sort of the rapid departure. And I felt like I didn't have the closure that I really wanted on that semester. And so I've always planned. I've always wanted to go back to Kenya, and I was hoping to go back about a year ago and then sort of the pandemic continued. So this summer, when it looked like things were settling down, I decided that I really wanted to go back. And this is also sort of coupled with the alumni trip that St. Lawrence is putting on, going back to Kenya in the middle of July, which will be an amazing experience. This is sort of celebrating the 50 year anniversary for the program. So there's going to be people that went on that very first semester, all the way up to people from 2020, which will be special. But yeah, I'm slated to fly out next week Kenya, and I'm going to spend about two weeks with my different host families before I will join the alumni trip in the middle of July.

Beth:  That's incredible. And what are some of the things that you're hoping to do with your host families when you're there?

Cooper:  So the urban family in Nairobi, so I had a really little host brother who was one year old when I was there two years ago. So now I think he's almost four. And so he's growing really fast. So I'm looking forward to doing a lot of fun activities with him. I think we're going to go to some zoos and maybe visit the giraffes, things like that, which I'm really looking forward to. And then I'll travel out to Kericho where my rural host family is. I'll spend about a week with them, and we're going to be doing a lot of hiking, working around their compound on the farm, and visiting with some family there. Then I'm actually spending a couple days with the compound chef in his rural home in Kenya.

Dennis:  Very nice.

Cooper:  Yeah, which I'm really looking forward to. I became really close with him when we were there.

Beth:  And you're not just going by yourself too. Your parents are going?

Cooper:  Yeah. Both my mother and father are going. They're going on the Alumni trip. So I'll meet up with them.

Beth:  Ah, incredible.

Cooper:  Sort of after my two week adventure.

Beth:  Oh, that's so incredible. I'm so happy that, we were just talking about, you kind of get whisked away from this program, and then you don't even have the pleasure of being able to love and embrace your family. But now you get to bring your family to the place that you were whisked away from, and show them like, hey, this was part of my experience, and you get to share that. What thoughts, what feelings do you have about that?

Cooper:  It's just a huge sense of excitement, I guess. And I really fell in love with Kenya, with their culture, with the society, with the people. And there was only so many stories and pictures that could give it justice to my parents. So having this opportunity through St. Lawrence with the great Alumni trip to go over there as a family is certainly definitely once in a lifetime opportunity, something that we will obviously never do as a family again. So being able to show them compound that I stayed on, the families that I interact with, the animals that I saw, sort of the mountains that we climbed, and to be able to all do that with them and show them what I did is going to be really special along with interacting with all the other Kenya alumni that are going back from that Kenya semester program, interacting with them, swapping stories about their experience, and just being able to relive the experience all over again for a couple weeks.

Dennis:  Is anyone else from your program going to be going?

Cooper:  No, I think I'm the youngest one that's going. There's a couple people from the late 2000s that are going.

Beth:  Okay. Well Cooper, thank you so much for joining us. This has been just, it really should be made into a movie, honestly, this experience because there's so many positives and unfortunate negatives that happen with your time in Kenya and being a student during COVID and having to adjust and adapt. But if there's anything that the classes of 2020 and 2021 in particular have shown me is how resilient and persistent you all are and your drive to continue to want to be a part of the Laurentian community and give back in different ways we've never had to conceptualize before, is just incredible. And as the quite literal leader of your class as the class president, you exemplify that with your ability to make lemonade out of lemons. So we are so excited for your trip.

Cooper:  Well, thank you very much. It was an honor to join both of you today and give you a snapshot on what my Kenya adventure was like.

Beth:  Thank you so much.

Dennis:  

Yeah. Thank you.

 Cooper:  Thank you.

 [Music Plays]

 Beth:  And there we have it, another wonderful interview. And this time I felt like it was more of an investigative reporter story versus just kind of chatting about somebody's wonderful career or something that they have accomplished was a true Laurentian story. This is going to be something that I feel like it'll be history within St. Lawrence, right? But not just Cooper, I mean, just generally speaking, when people are saying like, where were you? You were a student during the COVID-19 pandemic. Where were you? What happened to you? And I think that's going to be really interesting and fun. I want to thank Dennis Morreale for co-hosting with me again. And we are excited to come back next month with another amazing interview. So be sure to click the subscribe button. That way you can see immediately when episodes drop. And we'll see you next time, Laurentians.

[Theme Music Starts]

Beth:  Scarlet & Brown Stories is edited and produced by Amanda Brewer. Megan Fry Dozier, Dennis Morreale, Beth Dixon, and Amelia Jantzi.

Amelia:  Our music was written by Christopher Watts inspired by Eugene Wright '49.

Beth:  Subscribe to Scarlet & Brown Stories on Apple Podcast, Spotify, and wherever you listen to podcasts.

Amelia:  If you have a story you'd like to submit to us, you can email us at connect@stlawu.edu.

 [Music Ends]

[Theme Music Plays And Ends]

Beth:  Hello everyone, and welcome back to Scarlet & Brown Stories. We are so excited to have such a special episode. My name is Beth Dixon. I'm the executive director of New York City Internships and Laurentian Engagement Associate. This episode, what we are going to be doing is taking a look back in a year in review of our first year of the Scarlet & Brown Stories Podcast. But I am certainly not alone, and I have the entire production team here, as we will have our own discussion of the year in review. First, I would like to introduce Amelia. How are you doing?

Amelia:  Hey there, Beth. Hey there all you Laurentians out there. It's such a pleasure to be on this review podcast, to chat with the team who's worked so hard over the last year, and just be able to reflect on the stories that we've heard and everything that we've learned about St. Lawrence in the process. I'm going to pass on the hellos and introductions to one of our hosts and behind the scene voices, Megan.

Megan:  Hello, everyone. Welcome to Scarlet & Brown Stories. My name is Megan Fry Dozier. It's been a great pleasure to be part of this team and learn from all of our different Laurentians throughout the year that we've been working on this project. Looking forward to the year ahead, and I believe Denny, you're up next.

Denny:  Thank you Megan. Hello everyone. My name is Denny Morreale. I am Class of 2007 and have also been involved with this production from the beginning. My job in the office, my real official position as I'm associate director of annual giving. I imagine we'll get a little more into how each of us got involved in this little production team after we go through the introductions, but next I am excited to finally get to introduce an extremely important MVP of our team. Who's yet to make an official appearance on the show, but who is maybe the linchpin of this whole thing, Amanda Brewer.

Amanda:  Hi everyone. Thanks Dennis. Amanda Brewer here I am the class of 2012 and I'm the senior associate director of Laurentian Engagement and annual giving. I have a fun lawn title and I have mostly been hiding behind the scenes on this podcast doing the bulk of the editing, but excited to be joining this group of wonderful hosts and colleagues today.

Beth:  Yes. We are so excited to finally have Amanda's voice on a podcast. We love it.

Denny:  It was only a matter of time.

Beth:  Exactly. So we are really excited. This is going to be a different format for us because the five of us are really going to do the reflective work and talk a little bit about what our goals were for this podcast and what our vision is for the future as we take a look back on the conversations that we've had with various different Laurentians over the past year. But before we do this, we have a little bit of an announcement to make about Amelia Jantzi, who will unfortunately be leaving the podcast team because...

Amelia:  I'm moving to Boston you all.

Beth:  A Laurentian hub for sure.

Amelia:  My time at St. Lawrence is winding down, but I'm delighted to be able to close out some of that time with this wonderful team on this project, who jumped on board wholeheartedly and with this idea, and I'm excited to be leaving the project in extremely capable hands.

Beth:  Thank you so much for everything that you've done.

Denny:  Yeah. Thank you, Amelia. Can we start at the beginning there a little bit perhaps, and because I feel like it does, when we think about how this all got started, you are the logical starting point. Can you take us back to what the premise was when you were having the initial conversations?

Amelia:  Sure. Part of where my thinking got started with this podcast was in the middle of the pandemic. Podcasts were something that I turned to a lot, and I noticed that communities really fostered around podcasts, around themes, around stories. And I started thinking about how that related to St. Lawrence and knowing that the St. Lawrence community is so strong. And this seemed like a way to really invite more Laurentians into the fold in a new way. Maybe you aren't reading the St. Lawrence magazine, but you really are interested in what are the stories of alumni and what they're doing. And this is a new way to tell those stories and for Laurentians to hear about each other, and to hear about St Lawrence and what's going on on campus and really continue to foster that relationship between Laurentians. So that was some of the thinking behind it.

Amelia:  And I think it's over the year that we've been doing this really grown. We've seen our guests really make each episode their own, bringing whatever stories they wanted to, and those things that made St. Lawrence so special to them front and center. When we were talking to Andy Chan, his experience was so unique and different from when we were talking to Tarah Price and BJ, but they all still shared this kinship in St. Lawrence, in what it means to be a Laurentian and to be connected to St. Lawrence. And I think that's really the heart of what this project is trying to reveal.

Beth:  I think a lot about when we were trying to name the podcast, and you all wish that you could see the 30 name list that we had, that we narrowed down, and narrowed down, and narrowed down. And we had some really good thoughts there, but ultimately it came down to Scarlet & Brown Stories. And I can't remember if that was Amanda, was that your thought there, was Scarlet & Brown Stories?

Amanda:  It might have been. I think I did a lot of brainstorming with Scarlet Brown, Laurentian.

Amelia:  90% of the potential titles you came up with Amanda.

Beth:  I'm pretty sure we had the Gridiron Podcast as one of them.

Denny:  Yeah. I think that was one of mine. It's a bit grizzly, right?

Beth:  I was concerned, they would think that this was a football podcast. Not exactly what our aim was here, but I think that Scarlet & Brown Stories makes a lot of sense because at the end of the day, we're trying to show how Laurentians are so similar, yet have all these wonderful, unique stories, that when I've gone back and listened to all these podcasts, which we're going to discuss definitely became apparent. I know that Denny and Amanda, you both are also listeners of podcasts. What made you want to join this project?

Denny:  Yeah. So I rightfully have no business being involved in this at all really. There's no logical reason why I would be part of this team. I listen to a ton of podcasts hours a day, probably. It's one of those background things when you are doing the dishes, or just I'll have them on when I'm doing different kinds of spreadsheet work, that kind of thing. And I don't really do other, you know I don't really do TV, I'm not getting tons of information. I use the internet obviously, but that's not in a deliberate way getting news from anything else. So my main access to what's going on in the world tends to be podcasts.

Denny:  And then on the other hand, in my work, I'm in annual giving and I work with volunteers and I spend a lot of time thinking about how do you kind of coordinate with a group of people who are scattered all around the world, and certainly around the country and communicate in an effective easy way that doesn't make them feel like it's work. So I had long fantasized about wanting to have some kind of podcast to just be engaging with our community. And I never quite mustered it up or anything. So when I heard there was one happening, I just raised my hand and started shouting and just basically said let me in, let me in. And that was it.

Beth:  I love that you said you have no business being on the team when you have all the business. You're like, "I had no business except for, it was perfect for my job responsibilities in the people that I'm talking to. And that this is something I've constantly thought about for years."

Denny:  Well, yeah, I mean, so I guess it's true, but I mean, relative to say Amelia whose work is specifically in the realm of communications. Mine, if you look at my job description, this is doesn't show up anywhere in there. That being said, I do think, we think about our traditional communication mediums mail. We have the St. Lawrence Magazine. We've had the website and Calling all Saints and social media more recently. But I have predicted that I think five years from now, the podcast will grow to a point where it's one of the main four legs of a communication stool. Yeah, maybe that's optimistic, but I would not be surprised to see that happen.

Beth:  I would love to say that happen. Amanda, did you have thoughts and dreams like that when you joined the podcast team?

Amanda:  My thoughts and dreams were to never to speak aloud.

Beth:  And we trapped you. Welcome to this podcast.

Amanda:  I, like Dennis, I'm a huge podcast fan doing chores, folding laundry, just walking around, it's just constantly listening to different voices and different stories. And the thought of being able to do that with St. Lawrence, Laurentians of all different walks of life was really exciting to me, but even more so was learning a new technical software and playing around with that. I really enjoy all that aspect of my job. So I had a little bit more business than I think Dennis did in that some of that is in my job description. But yeah, it was my own curiosity. And then also just wanting to work with everyone that had joined the team and raised their hand.

Beth:  I'm also curious with Megan, because I think that Megan has such an interesting background with her role where she's working with essentially special events volunteers. People who were going to be doing SLU Connect or helping out with presidential events. Megan, did that have any play into why you wanted to be involved with the podcast?

Megan:  It absolutely did. And from two perspectives. One, as you mentioned, I do SLU Connect. That's my main interaction with students, and it's so fun to meet an 18, or 19, or 20 year old student who has all of these brilliant ideas perspectives, how they're going to change the world. And then we don't necessarily get to hear all those stories once they leave campus. So it's been really exciting to reconnect with some of those voices and to see how they've taken the lessons that they've learned in Canton, and learned on campus and how they're applying them in the real world.

Megan:  And just coming from SLU connect, and some of the alumni that I had a chance to meet, there were very specific stories that I just wanted to get in front of a larger audience. They would speak to a group of 15, or 20, or 30 students, and that's a great opportunity, but there were stories that I wanted to shout from the rooftops. So that's been the most exciting part about this project for me.

Beth:  I really appreciate hearing that just because for those that don't know, Megan has been such a wonderful champion for so many of the wonderful voices that we've had on our podcast. Most notably Ross Gibby, which we know that she got to fan girl a little bit about concrete with Ross. And that was such a great conversation, but it's exactly these kind of connections that our individual roles of working with alums, students, faculty, and staff in the greater community help us to define these guests. So with all of that introduction said, one of the things that we noticed as we went through to plan this podcast is we each took some different episodes to listen through ourselves and take some notes about some of the themes that we noticed over the past year.

Beth:  And we noticed that the Laurentian for Life pillars are well represented here. So for those that don't know, Laurentian for Life celebrates the five pillars of what we believe it means to be a Laurentian. Well we are doing today is celebrating. So Laurentian celebrate is one of them, but we also have Laurentians learn, Laurentians give, Laurentians serve, and Laurentians connect. And what we found was that all of our podcasts do a really great job of exemplifying all four of those pillars. In addition to celebrate, we feel like this podcast in itself is that anyway. So I thought maybe we could start with some of the moments that we feel like really exemplified Laurentians connect.

Amelia:  I think the one that jumped out at me is our episode featuring reunion. It's the obvious one there. I feel like I just took the give me answer, but you know reunion is so much about connecting with Laurentians, and connecting with the actual physical space of St. Lawrence, and being present in that. And so he being able to hear from BJ about her years of experience as a reunion volunteer, making that possible and connecting with Tarah, who was going to be going to her very first reunion as a grad one year out from graduation was just such a beautiful example of that.

Denny:  I would agree. So the reunion episode captured really a lot of things, and I had the same thought. There's moments in that I would point to that really perfectly hit on the connect idea. I mean, she lays out a thesis about how reunion does that. So you're not going to do better than that in terms of hitting on that topic. I should also say, when we talked about the premise of this episode, one of the things we talked about was to address you the audience, and we've been trying to do some things here that we hope you will like.

Denny:  But we also would love to hear from you and part of doing this was to show you our thought process, and then hopefully hear back what you think of that, and what things you'd like to hear more of. But that reunion episode, really the way it was structured, I think did capture a bit of magic. And it's something that moving forward, I think we would like to try to repeat that formula more of bringing in different kinds of people and having them tell stories with each other and connect that way.

Beth:  I think that Laurentians connect can have so many different meanings. It doesn't necessarily mean a job connection. We often think of it as a kind of a career services or a careers excellence scope, especially when we're thinking on campus, but connection as we'll tell you anybody, who's in charge of career mentoring and networking like I am, connections and networking is all about just finding something in common with another person, which thankfully for us at St. Lawrence, we all have St. Lawrence in common, but sometimes those connections are forged a little deeper.

Beth:  One of the ones that I really think stood out to me when I went back and listened was Dzifa Yador's '11 podcast, where she talked very candidly about how important and essential the black student union was for her in order to feel comfortable on campus, to have a network of support. And that she also talks about how Dean Tolliver, who was the Dean of students when we were students, he was instrumental in having her get connected with people on campus that had a similar experience of being in the north country and being on St Lawrence's campus.

Beth:  And while the black student union was so important for her in order to feel connected, she passed that on to the younger students who were joining the community and needed that outreach as well. And so I really appreciate those little moments that we hear about the connections that got people through St. Lawrence, or continue to be there for St. Lawrence alums.

Megan:  Absolutely Beth. I think another one of our speakers who spoke so eloquently to the need for connection was Reverend Shaun Whitehead, who serves as the chaplain on campus. And she specifically talked about how the pandemic really underscored that fundamental need for interconnectedness. And while it was a painful period, it was also a period that forced many of us to grow, and to learn new skills and new ways of connecting, because that's the foundation of everything that we do at St. Lawrence, we all come because during that open house or that admissions tour, we connected with something about this place. And then the connections just grow from there. And we add our little dots to the picture.

Beth:  Absolutely. Amanda, do any connect moments stand out to you when you're thinking back on some of our podcasts?

Amanda:  My favorite connection story was thinking about Hana Bushara, and how she described the people that she met at St. Lawrence as "golden people", and how they made St. Lawrence and her experience on campus even though she thought initially, maybe I don't fit in here. Maybe this isn't where I want to be. It was the people and the connections that she made with the many different activities that she was involved with, her fall in love with St. Lawrence and for St. Lawrence to have such a meaningful impact and place in her heart. And that sticks with me. The description of meeting golden people of all walks of life here on campus and Canton, New York, and how she's carried that on with her to London, and how she still calls back to all of her friends. And there's a specific clip when she's talking about a FaceTime and she's walking through the pub, and I just really love that.

Beth:  And of course, the connections that St Lawrence alum students, faculty, and staff have are not just connections themselves. Sometimes they lead to various different call to action. So one of the things I think is a great little transition here is to talk a little bit about Laurentians serve. So many of our alums that we spoke to talked about what they're doing in order to stay involved with St Lawrence or with their local communities. And one of the people that I think about a lot for the serve aspect was Jeff Byrne '74. And Jeff was very involved with the link mentorship program and talked about how he appreciates getting involved in this way, not only to meet some of the other alums who are doing the same program, but to also serve as a mentor. It's not somebody who's a coach or a teacher. It's not a family member.

Beth:  It's nobody who has a certain level of power over you. It's somebody who's there to guide you to be a listening ear, to maybe give you something that's not what you're expecting to hear from an adult who's in the Laurentian community. And I really appreciated his perspective on that. And of course, we appreciate the fact that he's a link mentor as well. But I wondered Megan, do you have anybody that you think of off the top of your head from different podcasts that we've listened to that really exemplifies the idea of Laurentians serve?

Megan:  You know that is a tough one, Beth, because I think that there are so many and we all serve in different ways.

Beth:  Absolutely.

Megan:  But one of the examples that I thought was really cool was actually the group of students and talking with our Esport coordinators and how the creation of our Esports team was really driven by our students and they petitioned our administration to be included as part of the team. So yes, that's very much something that they're doing for themselves. And if it's a sport that they're passionate about, but they're also creating this incredible legacy for the next generation of Laurentians that comes along. So that's always really exciting to see when it's students picking up the banner and not just taking the lessons or the opportunities that we give them as an institution, but really creating their own path. So that's one that sticks out to me.

Beth:  I think it's a great one. I think oftentimes we're hearing about how students, either the alums, when we're talking to them, when they were students and things that are still going on, that they maybe were instrumental in. But also the idea that no students, especially nowadays are very focused on what kind of legacy can we leave behind that could help other people. That was also very apparent in the Dzifa Yador interview that we listened back on.

Denny:  To me for this one, what really struck out was, and I'm a bit biased here was the conversation with Lizzie Edwards, where we got to talking about really the way that her and I have worked together. She's been just an all star volunteer for St. Lawrence and the way that I conceptualize the volunteer programs, not just the one that I manage, but we have an array from the young alumni league, of course, but then alumni executive council, the parent leadership giving committee, the trustees of course is the ultimate volunteer organization associated with the university.

Denny:  It's these different organizations, different stages of volunteering that are what makes St. Lawrence a thing that continues to run and to ideally serve. The students who come here make the opportunities possible that are possible. And just hearing her explain what the experience is like for her. I mean, it meant a lot to me having worked with her for a long time to hear that, but I think it captured something really nice about the Laurentians serve sentiment.

Beth:  I do think that Laurentians serve and Laurentians give kind of go hand in hand. So we have so many people who, part of the reason we were talking about the link mentorship program, giving back is definitely a part of service as well. And there were definitely quite a few moments in so many of our interviews where that was exemplified. I'm specifically thinking about one of the trustees that we got to interview with Andy Chan. Amanda, did you really feel like I do that Andy is such a great example of somebody who serves by giving back?

Amanda:  Absolutely. I mean, he talked about how he got his first job from a connection that he made with trustees, and how that really impacted him and all of the relationships he had with faculty and staff on campus and how one of the honors that he's had as an alum was to be asked to be a McCurdy Sprague trustee, and how he really sees that as his duty to give back to St. Lawrence and serve in that capacity to make sure that, the students that are on campus today had those opportunities just like he did when he was a student having graduated back in 2014. So he's the perfect example of that.

Beth:  He definitely came to my mind as well. Another person who came to my mind Amelia and is Sonja Jensen who-

Amelia:  Oh yeah.

Beth:  ... I think exemplifies the idea of giving back.

Amelia:  The girl could not give back more. I mean, she just lives and breathes Scarlet & Brown. No, it's, what's really great about our conversation with Sonja Jensen was how she was so impacted to give back through time and volunteerism, not just to St. Lawrence, but to the north country community, because I think you can't really separate St Lawrence from the north country, that there is a relationship between this campus and this place that we live, and the people that live here to be in such a world, but the breathtakingly beautiful part of the country.

Amelia:  And so it was really interesting to talk to Sonja and to hear about her experience with SLU pick and how that landed her working in Garden Share in the north country, and wanting to be in the north country and to work with these people and to stay here and to use all of the experiences she gained from St. Lawrence and to working with food access and in our communities, and really giving back to the community that gave so much to her during her four years on campus. And so I thought that was just really great. Because you really see how this spirit of service and giving is fostered at St. Lawrence and how it impacts communities afterwards, not just our community, but we empower our students to become leaders in the communities that they inhabit after they graduate.

Beth:  Absolutely snaps. That's exactly how I feel too Amelia. And Denny, another podcast that I was thinking about that really exemplifies this idea of giving back, which is kind of in a different capacity, is what we have affectionately deemed the Paul-cast. Where Paul Doty and Paul Haggett of special collections and archive department in the library, their version of giving back is a little different, but I think it works here.

Denny:  Yeah. I do think that's an interesting way of looking at that. I really enjoyed that one, and I feel like that's another episode type. Getting into a little corner of how the university works. The behind the scenes of it all I think is personally interesting myself, and this is another place where I'd be very curious to hear from the audience, if you're listening and you heard that episode how that struck you, and if there are other corners of the university you'd like us to try to pull the curtains back on and explore. We would very much like to know about that.

Beth:  One of the other things I liked about the Paul-cast episode is that it was very Laurentian's learn oriented as well. We got to learn a lot about the history of the institution of some of the really interesting and historical items that we have in our special collections. And I just really enjoyed hearing Paul and Paul talk a lot about what their day looks like, what a year could look like. Having people who are contacting them for research purposes and coming to visit our campus. In addition to Laurentians themselves, just wanting to learn more about the university.

Beth:  And it just exemplifies once again, that Laurentians learn. We are lifelong learners of the liberal arts. We love to make those connections and give what we do... Sorry, I'm just trying to make those all work together. But that said, I really think we have learned a lot as we've listened to so many of these people this past year, that we've had the pleasure of interviewing. Megan, who's somebody that really pops out to you that really exemplifies the idea of Laurentians learn.

Megan:  So many of our guests. You could offer an example for one that stood out to me, I know we've mentioned Lizzie Edwards and she works as a teacher. And she spoke to the way that her liberal arts education has influenced the way that she teaches, and the way that she gets her middle school students excited about learning about history and current events. And that intersection. And Danica Cunningham is another working in music therapy.

Megan:  So she's again taking these seemingly disparate topics of music and psychology, bringing them together and teaching people how to cope with whatever their particular diagnosis, or challenge, or issue may be. So those two young Laurentians are two that really stand out to me when I think about not only do Laurentians learn, but Laurentians also teach.

Beth:  I think we should add a six pillar, Laurentians teach. What do you think Amanda?

Amanda:  I love that. And I really thought that Megan was going to talk about Ross Gibby.

Denny:  Yeah.

Megan:  If I start talking about Ross Gibby, and turning plastic into concrete and solving environmental issues that way, we'll be here all afternoon. I'll scare everyone, but seriously CRDC Global, check them out. Super cool Laurentians, super cool company, and my favorite topics.

Amanda:  Yeah. And to your point Beth and Megan, I learned so much listening to Ross talk, and was just blown away of how his passion for that came out of a project he was doing on documentaries. And how he just grabbed it and ran with it and created this amazing company and is teaching everybody about the importance of recycling and creating an outlet for people to recycle plastics that otherwise wouldn't be able to be processed with his project, the Bag That Gives. And he is just exemplifies learning and teaching, and really giving back just in general to everything.

Denny:  Yeah. That was an episode for me, where I felt like I was not hosting or on the show, but I was listening backstage as the episode was being recorded. And there were so many moments where I wanted to unmute myself, and jump in with a question or something. And that also gets at something that I think we're trying to do with the podcast, which is, I know that this is the case for me, but I think in general, this is a St. Lawrence thing, the spirit of curiosity that is both part of who it is we look for in our admissions process, but also it's a characteristic that the academic programs are really designed carefully to foster and help grow.

Denny:  And I think that the longer I've been working in the alumni office and the more people I've met, it does seem to be a common personality trait that doesn't matter who the person is or what they do for work or what they studied, that spirit of curiosity is there. And it's one of the most fun parts about being on this team, is that there's an endless number of interesting people in our community. And we get to grab them and set them down in front of a microphone and indulge our own curiosities about what it is that they do. And luckily we have enough that there's a eternity of episodes that we could end up doing, just serving that purpose.

Beth:  Agreed. One of the best examples I think of Laurentians learn in relating to that is Hagi Bradley, who was our first interview that we ever had. And not only did we get to learn about what it's like for him to not only transition as the newer Dean of students during a pandemic, where he had only had maybe four or five months on campus before the pandemic hit, but I really liked what he talked about is that, he has to learn from the students in order to help the students, in order to provide services for the students, to give them clubs and organizations and have services like counseling and security and all these different divisions on campus that he is in charge of.

Beth:  And one of the things that I thought was really great to hear from him was just when he's learning from the students, he also knows how he can be best transparent with them, so that they can learn and how understand why certain things are the way they are, and what is the process for doing X, Y, Z. And so hopefully that will help those students not only understand the process at St. Lawrence, but understand how to enact change in other organizations when they leave. Or in our world, how they can be a more efficient change maker in addition to a Laurentian for life learner. So I think that we have plenty of examples throughout all of these wonderful podcasts that showcase all of the wonderful pillars that we've discussed today.

Beth:  Before we close out, we would like to ask here in the audience, what do you want to see in year two? Is there something, is there a void that we're not filling that you would just love for us to do? Is there something that's working? Is there something that's not working? You can submit all of those pieces of feedback to the email address that is in the show notes, which is connect@stlawu.edu. So submit all of your comments, concerns, questions, qualms, quandary queries, please submit all of those to the email address, because we would love to hear from you as well. As we close out here, I would like each person here to think about what's something that you would like to see in year two. I'm going to start with Amelia because it'll be interesting. She'll be a listener from here on out.

Amelia:  Yeah. I knew you were going to pick me first Beth. I think I'd love to see more shows where we get multiple guests on. I feel like the dynamic that we had with the podcast, that we had with our reunion episode and really being able to see our guests communicate with and to each other really brings a really unique, authentic story to life. And I just would love to be able to be a fly on the wall and hear a handful of Laurentians. Maybe they're bound together by the same affinity, or the same industry, or some other thematic way, or really not at all, but to just be able to see them connect about St. Lawrence, and about being Laurentian, and what that really means. What does being a part of this community mean?

Beth:  I think we could do that. I think we could do that.

Amelia:  I have faith in this team.

Beth:  Perfect. Megan, what are your thoughts? What would you like to see going into year two?

Megan:  I don't know if this counts as a spoiler, but the last interview that we did with a young alumnus really focused around a specific story that he lived at St. Lawrence. And it was really cool to do a deep dive into that particular chapter of his life. A lot of the interviews that we've done this past year have been very high level overview, a little bit general. So this one that we have coming up is a little bit different. I think it's going to be super cool. And I think there are some other chapters and other Laurentian lives that I'd love to do a deeper dive into.

Beth:  Definitely. And this is a good teaser more than it is a spoiler that is coming for our storytelling in August. Denny, what would you like to see in year two?

Denny:  Oh, Megan nailed it. Read my mind there. That episode, that template there really, it came from, it was a thought I had going back to the reunion episode hearing the way that BJ Blodgett was telling stories about the changes in the university between when she was a freshman, and when she graduated in 1972. And I just thought it was fascinating and I wanted to be brought back and put in the shoes of someone in those days and hear the songs, and just feel what it was like through hearing them.

Denny:  And so thinking of it as really a model of like, take me back to freshman year, or a single anecdote. And even better if we could get to let's say two roommates and where they're maybe even having disagreements. Because I think as we talked about in that reunion episode, you don't store all your own memories in your own mind. So having two people that can fill in the gaps in the story and they figure it out in real time, I think would be fun. And to just be fun about it too, or to be sad. I want an episode that's cheerful and I want episodes that are funny, and all the feelings I think would just be great.

Beth:  We will try to bring that kind of catharsis of feeling in our podcast for sure. And Amanda, to close it out, what would you like to see in year two?

Amanda:  I hope we can find some more interesting Laurentian experts who can just teach us about really different, fascinating things that they're doing either as a hobby or as their profession. I really enjoyed those episodes and thinking about learning something that I have no idea about, like I had no idea about music therapy, and all the different aspects that go into it and listening to Danica really opened my mind to a lot of different possibilities out there. And so I think finding some more Laurentians like that, where we can do deep dives into their area of expertise would be really, really good.

Beth:  And my goal is just to get more Laurentian singer alum on the podcast. We only had, I believe two this past year and... No, I'm just kidding. I echo all of your thoughts. I'm so excited to see what year two brings to this podcast. And we hope that all of you at home have enjoyed this little reflection. And maybe have encouraged you if you haven't listened to all the episodes, to go back and listen to all of the podcasts.

Beth:  To see, first of all, how our technology has changed and grown from the first couple mics that we used to the better ones, to see how our format has potentially changed and been tweaked. And let us know, give us your thoughts. And if you're on Apple podcast, please leave your ratings and reviews for us there. It helps the algorithm and you might help other Laurentians find the podcast as well. I want to thank everybody here on the podcast production team for all of your work, not only this past year, but in the prep work to get this podcast going and I can't wait to work with all of you into this next year.

Amanda:  Thank you.

Denny:  Thank you very much.

Amelia:  Thanks Beth.

Megan:  Here we go Saints.

Megan:  Bye everybody.

[Theme Music Starts]

Beth:  Scarlet & Brown Stories is edited and produced by Amanda Brewer. Megan Fry Dozier, Dennis Morreale, Beth Dixon, and Amelia Jantzi.

Amelia:  Our music was written by Christopher Watts inspired by Eugene Wright '49.

Beth:  Subscribe to Scarlet & Brown Stories on Apple Podcast, Spotify, and wherever you listen to podcasts.

Amelia:  If you have a story you'd like to submit to us, you can email us at connect@stlawu.edu.

[Music Ends]

[Theme Music Plays]

Denny:  Welcome back to Scarlet & Brown Stories podcast. I am Denny Morreale, class of 2007 and with me today is Amelia Jantzi. We are both very excited because this is reunion week here on campus and we are very excited to be welcoming back hundreds of Laurentians from across wide range of class years and our guests today are here to help us get excited about it.

Amelia:  We have two fantastic guests for you, who are both reunion chairs of their own milestone. We have Barbarajean Blodgett, class of 1972, who will be appearing alongside Tarrah Price from the class of 2021. We have a member of the 50th reunion and a member of the first reunion.

Denny:  First ever first reunion.

Amelia:  First ever first reunion who are expressing their excitement for reunion, what it means to be a Laurentian and what it means to stay connected to the St. Lawrence community. And I think from here, we should just let them tell their story.

Denny:  Let's jump right in.

[Music Plays]

Denny:  With reunion coming up and both of your classes coming back, we thought this would be a great time to get together and see how you guys are feeling. To start us off, would you like to say a bit about, kind of who you are and what your experience with St. Lawrence has been so far?

Tarrah:  I'll let you kick it off, BJ.

BJ:  I graduated from St. Lawrence in 1972 with a degree in Fine Arts. I had taken minor classes in education and graduated with a job, which back in 1972...

Denny:  Yeah, that's not bad.

BJ:  That's pretty impressive. I took a job in the Watertown City Schools teaching art and never left. I'm one of those rare birds that has had a total career with one company.

Denny:  That's lovely.

BJ:  That's not to say I didn't get swept around, which was wonderful because in New York State, they're certified in art K through 12 and so I was able to spend time over my 36 year career in everything from junior high, back then was grade 7 through 9, all the way down K-6, the little guys, the wee ones. And so it was a truly rewarding experience. I never went to work a day where I had to say, "God, I hate my job. I hate my job. I hate my job. It's work." It wasn't work. And the children loved coming to the art room, not so much because of me but because cool stuff went on. And so it was just a glorious career. I truly enjoyed it and I was lucky enough to have had both my daughters as students. For 45 minutes each week, I was Mrs. Mom.

Amelia:  Oh, I love that.

BJ:  Mrs. Blodgett or Ms. Blodgett, however. That was pretty cool. Of course, the first person who got their name on the board for misbehaving was one of my daughters.

Denny:  Classic.

BJ:  Let's test the waters here. Let's see if she's really going to nail me. I did. I did. It was quick. Punishment was swift. But in any case, it was a wonderful career. I enjoyed it enormously and I thank St. Lawrence for giving me a wonderful education, A, and B, the confidence that I could think clearly, write well and react on my feet. And those three things are essential if you're a teacher. Very essential if you're an art teacher but I'm forever grateful because my four years there was an experience. Back when I had graduated in my mind, it was the best back to back four years I'd ever had in my life.

Denny:  I like that. I think I haven't thought of it that way but I might say the same. I don't know if I've ever had a consecutive four years than were better than those.

BJ:  Yeah, me too. I've never had four consecutive. I'd had a really good one and then...

Denny:  Yeah, exactly.

BJ:  Back four years at a time in your life when you're so impressionable 18 to 22, it doesn't get more impressionable than that. And so my affinity towards St. Lawrence is so strong because in that block of time, St. Lawrence rules reign supreme, nothing else consumed my life as much as that time. I dare say there for me, it was a real cornerstone of my life.

Denny:  That's wonderful. Very nice. You've had a very interesting experience with St Lawrence too. And what's interesting about having the two of you on is that very different experiences in a lot of ways, but we wonder if there might be some things that hold true. So do you want to give us a kind of overview introduction of how you got to know St. Lawrence and how you got from there to where you are now?

Tarrah:  Yes. So I agree BJ, the best four consecutive years. I'm definitely holding on to that one. So I'll give you credit whenever I say it, but my sister went to St. Lawrence and naturally she never stopped talking about it. So when I was sort of going through the process of where I wanted to go, I was on the Alpine Ski Team at St. Lawrence. And that was a pretty big factor of where I wanted to go, because I was competing at a pretty high level. So that was number one. But then because my sister hadn't stopped talking about it. And then I came to visit, got my pub cookie in my welcome bag for my tour. And then we went to a hockey game that night. So I think like that was it combined with the pub cookie and the hockey game and meeting everyone and just seeing such a close-knit community.

Tarrah:  I remember, I think it was Power of Pink day at St. Lawrence and so my sister was very involved at her time there. So she was going and doing that. And so she kind of left me and she was like, have at it explore, but it was really cool because I was very young, not a lot of confidence, so I kind of explored, but St. Lawrence kind of gave me that confidence to sort of walk around on my own and be nervous for sure, but I felt welcome enough. So then I went to St. Lawrence was on the Alpine Ski Team and the golf team. So those are two pretty cool experiences. And then also I was a student delegate to the Alumni Executive Council had a great experience with that was really fortunate because that was good and bad. That was sort of COVID time.

Tarrah:  So in a way, missed out on some cool opportunities to meet people in-person and check out Canaras and get to sort of connect more in person, but it was during COVID time. So it was pretty cool every Friday or Thursday night at around the same time for, I would say a couple months, we would get to go on Zoom and connect with everyone on the council. So that was huge for me getting to sort of connect with people. And it was a highlight of my week for sure, getting to go on the Zoom with everyone, but sort of as my time progressed and I was a senior and I was looking to graduate, obviously COVID is still a thing and, but was much more a threat. I feel at the time in which like I was there in graduating. So our class didn't have any really traditions that we got to do all of the classic ones, that BJ. I'm sure. If you could think of anything, your favorite things that say Lawrence was probably one of the traditions.

Tarrah:  So that was something that kind of impacted my whole class. I would say it never really brought us together. We were all sort of scattered around being leaders within our little circles because we couldn't really come together. And then as graduation got closer COVID was an issue because we couldn't bring everyone together to graduate. So that impacted a lot of people because it's such a milestone in one's life to be able to walk across the stage with your family and your classmates.

Tarrah:  So that sort of all combined kind of made, I would say my class have sort of mixed reviews on how they felt about the school and I don't think it was anything to do with the school. It was more so just the situation. So myself and one of my peers, Cooper McCrillis, we sort of came together and tried to come up with an idea of how we could bring our class together and make them re-fall in love and reconnect with the school in a way that would make them excited and happy and rejuvenated and all of that. So yeah, we approached the advancement office and they were super keen, had a nice coffee chat with Joe and Cooper outside the bookstore and yeah, here we are a month or so until reunion. So very excited to be here.

BJ:  You know, Tarrah, you used some words that I use when I tried to invigorate or excite my classmates. Not only am I a graduate of the class of 72, I'm also my class reporter and I've been the class reporter for 40 years. So they know me better than I know them, just because. In any case, when I think of reunion, I think of these words and you touched upon them, return, reconnect, reflect, and recharge. Okay. The return part is the hardest part is to get people to come back to campus. Okay.

Denny:  That's so true. Yeah.

Amelia:  Yeah.

BJ:  And, oh, it's too far. Oh, my kid's graduating that weekend or, oh, I can't get a babysitter. There have been so many excuses. Eventually, you're not old enough yet, but eventually you're so old that your kids are grown. There's no more excuses. I will hunt you down, get the hook in and reel you in. You're coming to the reunion because once you're campus, the magic starts. And I can't say that enough. There's something magical that takes place on that campus. It happened for me like you, I didn't have a sister, but I came to visit St. Lawrence my junior year at high school. And my parents stayed with hockey coach, who they knew very well. I stayed with a bunch of women at Rebert Hall who believe it or not, the following year wound up being my sorority sisters little did I know, but the thing was, I got to see firsthand what life was like on that campus. Having been the first child in my family to go to a four year school. So this was a big deal. This was like, holy smokes, this is wonderful. Everywhere I went, whether I was with these young women or not, everybody smiles and says hi to you on campus. Holy smokes, who does that? I mean, not in my high school. Good grief.

BJ:  But the fact of the matter was I felt so at home at this place that I applied early decision, I never looked at another school. Period. End of that. I said this is it. This is for me. I can thrive here and boy did I ever, it was just wonderful. So that return part, going back to campus, the reconnect, when you come back to campus, you're seeing your old friends and you get on the phone. Well now it's email and whatever, but I'm going, are you going to come? Come on, let's go. It's all that reconnecting with old friends and believe it or not, some of my best friends now are people that weren't in my sorority or weren't my best friends on campus. They're people in my class that I have met over the years that I've become closer to because kept going back, kept going back.

BJ:  The reflect part is the part where just like that. Bruce Springsteen song, Glory Days, a bunch of old people sitting around talking about the glory days. It's a wonderful opportunity to say your memory is of certain things, but someone else on the same campus at the same timeframe has a very different recollection of their experience. And you kind of mill those together in this wonderful story of what took place when you were there. My class right now, Tarrah is doing a memory book way better than a yearbook, way, way better. I mean a yearbook doesn't come close to this memory book, because everybody gets a page, or two if you got a lot of stuff to put in there. You get to talk about your life, answer some quick questions, if you will, load it up with photographs, et cetera, and it's all yours, nobody gets to edit it but you.

BJ:  Then the recharge part. So you come back to campus, you reconnect, you reflect and you recharge, and that's the part that's so essential. You leave there saying, man, that was such a great time. I'm so glad I went there. I've got to tell everybody else why St. Lawrence is just so wonderful, because trust me, I've got friends, they blew off their four years wherever they went to school. And they're like, you really are going back to your 50th reunion. Oh my word. Ugh. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's why reunion is important. It, it just gives you an opportunity and you are so lucky, Tarrah. I know it sounds bad that COVID hit you, but you're getting a second shot. You're getting another at bat. This is like extra innings for you.

Tarrah:  Exactly.

BJ:  And I'm so happy that your class Tarrah is going to have that second at bat. You're going to hit it out of the ballpark. I know you are.

Amelia:  How does your class feel about this reunion? They excited like how many people are coming back, like tell us about this experience with getting your class together to come together for really the first time.

Tarrah:  Yeah. So BJ, I love those four words. They're so succinct to, I think what encompasses it. And I've never been to reunion. I was going to work the reunion when COVID happened. So I was pretty bummed about that because I had heard about how fun it was and all of that, but said it to sort of experience those words through coming back. But in terms of my class, I would say I have a different sort of path I would say with our class than other classes, because it's a unique approach in the way in which to connect with my peers in my class. Explain why it's happening, explain what's happening because we graduated and we left and it was kind of, I think, confusing to a lot of people, just the time and everything. So I think it's been really interesting and I think a lot of people in my class are sort of in a different point of their life.

Tarrah:  So coming back to reunion, it's harder to take time off work or to travel cause it's expensive to do that. So I think that's one aspect that I didn't really think about when all of this was happening, but it's been good. I think people are really excited. I think they can't wait to check out the hoot, because many people in my class didn't even get to go into the hoot. Oh, that's right. So that's one thing I will say. They're pretty excited about that and just experience the school, I think for my class, because there's so many older alum and cool opportunity for us to meet, sort of connect with them and get insights to everything, but in a more casual, unique experience. So yeah, it's going well and continuing to foster the excitement.

BJ:  One thing that my class figured out a long time ago was the use of affinity groups. Basically what we've done is divide the class into groups, Greek houses, sports, different activities on campus. For example, Laurentian Singers, call Laurentian Singers in our class. Kappas call Kappas, Deltas call Deltas, Phi Kaps, call Phi Kaps, Beta call Beta's, but there's overlap because some Beta's are football players or some Sigma Chi were soccer players and so on and so forth, but once we nailed down all those affinity groups, it became very apparent that was a driving force. That if so, and so was going to come well, then I'm coming to, but we'll drive together or we'll, whatever. If you can learn to do that early, it will really ramp up your ability to get people back to campus. That's who the only people they really want to see. The woman that I've spent the most time with recently is my traveling partner, Pat Welsh Schultz, she was a Delta when I was on campus. So we were like fighting over the same people that come in the house, all of that crazy nonsense that goes on. Over the years, this is the best part, she and I have become such close friends because we always came back to reunion and what's remarkable is she's getting an award, this reunion to the Atwood Manley Award. So it's like, very nice.

Amelia:  Cool. Congratulations to her.

BJ:  She was a fundraiser in development for St. Lawrence right out of college, pretty much. And she has done a professional fundraising for various not-for-profits, her whole life and so she really has it down. And so she's like a little machine. She knows how to establish large gifts, who knows how to approach people for very significant gifts. And she's very willing to teach others how to make the ask. The thing is you don't give until it hurts. You give until it feels good.

Denny:  I like that. I've never heard that. That's good.

Amelia:  Denny's going to file that away for a rainy day.

Denny:  I mean I'm involved in fundraising that's I always have been and I tend to do small dollar donation stuff, but I've always sort of told people like once you get into it... This isn't even just to St. Lawrence, but certainly to St. Lawrence as well, donating to stuff feels good. And it like, it makes you feel really good and it can be kind of addictive and contagious and like once you've done it, you know to calibrate that to the level that'll make you enjoy the kind of ritual of it.

BJ:  It's really true. It's like Christmas, you're so joyful that the gift you gave is so well received, you know? It's they say it's better to give than to receive and it's so true.

Denny:  It really, it really is. Yeah. The Christmas comparison's true. It's one of those things you don't realize it as a child, but then when you're an adult, the giving other people gifts is exactly, is far more like satisfying part of the holiday.

BJ:  But that's true about St. Lawrence. I've met such incredible people, not just in my own class, but the generations. And Tarrah you was so fortunate to have met the alumni council people. I likewise was on the alumni council. I met some people that were old enough to be my grandparents and they had the same feeling, the same warm fuzzies about pit horns. The time they spent there as time they spent there as I did. And so I have a theory.

Denny:  I want to hear this. Yeah. So one of my questions I've got here is relates to what do you think the secret sauce is?

BJ:  It's the cookies, it's the pub cookies. [crosstalk 00:  17:  33].

BJ:  It gets the hook in and it just reels you in. I knew Jack Taylor very well. He was the food coordinator for St. Lawrence while I was on campus. And he stayed. I mean, he, you know, I gained 15 to 20 pounds my freshman year, you know, easily.

Denny:  Yeah. Likewise.

BJ:  The food was great and it got better. I mean, when I we'd go back to reunion and say, what is this look at this food court now. Oh, my word, this buffet, holy smokes. We were served, you know, you ate what was put in front of you, that kind of thing back in the day. Oh sure. But it was good food and Jack Taylor was so proud of the kinds of things he could bring to the North Country and he established this wonderful thing called Recipes From Home. And so I'm certain...

Denny:  I've heard of this. Yeah.

BJ:  On certain nights it was Mrs. Jones' pot roast or so and so's grandma's Apple Brown Betty or whatever. And it was just so fun because, you know, if you were homesick, there's wonderful home cooking. But also it was just the idea that people at St Lawrence were listening. They were taking student input and putting it to use and there's something about that that's very telling about St. Lawrence. I was on campus during probably the most tumultuous time frame in American history. My senior year Martin Luther King was assassinated senior in high school. Martin Luther King was assassinated. Bobby Kennedy was assassinated. The war in Vietnam was raging and there was a draft of 18 year old men and older. It was just a crazy, crazy time. And so that going on and then being on campus, we're like two, two very different worlds.

BJ:  You know, we're in a bubble. So to speak, you know, protected from some of that. I think the sense of engagement of the people in my class and the other people, upperclassmen that were on campus, we were allowed to get engaged. We were allowed to March, we were allowed to express ourselves. We were allowed to agree to disagree. But because of that, a lot of stuff changed. I entered St. Lawrence with a dress code I had to wear a skirt to meals, a dress to dinner. The men had to wear jackets and ties. There was a curfew for women. There were Saturday morning classes. You were not allowed to go into a fraternity or a male dorm unescorted, or at all, the only place you could go was the lobby of that building.

Denny:  Oh, wow.

BJ:  It was high time to bust the move and our group of people on campus those years, those four years.

Denny:  So that was when it transitioned.

BJ:  Correct. Tear down these walls.

Denny:  Wow. Okay. Cause I've heard, tell of these is like traditions that you would hear from people, but didn't actually know precisely when it happened. So that's real interesting.

BJ:  I would say from '66 on, high school class of '66 on, I think really those late sixties were the real, real change going on in America. And it took root in at St. Lawrence. It really found a place there to affect really good sound, social change. Students demanded more people of color to come on campus. The Black Student Union was created Operation Kanyengehaga, where students went to the reservations and helped tutor Native American students. There were a lot of things that were developed during that timeframe. The junior year abroad program really took off the Kenya program took off. So a lot of things started in those late sixties and I'm very happy that I was there to be a part of it. I was a student leader and I was really affected by the opportunities that I had by the administration to affect a lot of those changes. So yeah. It's good.

Amelia:  Yeah. It's so interesting. Sort of you talking about these really unprecedented times and the change that came out of them. And Tarrah, you definitely lived through some really unprecedented times, obviously the pandemic, but also there was so much going on in the country at that time. And I feel like I saw some of, you know, the way that inspired our students, but talk to us a little bit about that. Like how has living through the absolute insanity of the last several years, how did that impact you in your class and how was your class impacted St. Lawrence?

Tarrah:  So sitting here listening to BJ, I'm like, wow, there's obviously very different worlds, very different situations going on in the world. But I was sitting here. I'm like, wow, there's a lot that just connected with my experience and everything that's happening. So I was on a Zoom and I'm kicking myself because I don't remember exactly who and I didn't read it down. It was pretty big Zoom, but someone said, one time, within this past couple of years that St. Lawrence doesn't make character. It reveals character. And that is something that has stuck with me. So thinking about my past couple of years and everything going on and all the change, and I had some pretty close friends and got to experience the Black Lives Matter movement. A couple of students created the Black Laurentian Initiative, which was a really cool and incredible organization.

Tarrah:  They're still continuing everything with that, but that was really, really awesome because obviously I'm not someone coming from a background that knows anything about being in a minority. So being able to learn and to sort of see different perspectives was incredible, super fortunate. So being a member of the Student Athletic Advisory committee and being a leader there and being on my ski team and being able to sort of sit with that and try to make change in a way that I could was really cool. But yeah, it was definitely insane. COVID was crazy, but really incredible opportunities for sure. And a lot of similarities.

BJ:  I think, what's neat is that every generation that is at St Lawrence, there's some key thing that ignites, and there's a spark there. If it's, student governance and, or visitation, which is going to the different co-ed dorms, that sort of thing, whether the Greek system, some of those things, all kinds of flash points, if you will, where they can really cause some problems. I think it was the way that St. Lawrence was able to handle those crises if you will that left a mark in a good way, because it was a certain freedom. And I think the faculty, because the faculty's kind of in the middle, when you think about it, you got the administration over here and you got the students over here and there's the faculty right in the middle. And the faculty can go either way.

BJ:  I mean, they could side with the administration in some respects after all that's their boss or they could side with the students who they're there for. And so I think St. Lawrence has been able to attract and maintain such strong educators, such strong professors. And I think that's one of the things that separates St. Lawrence from so many universities is that these professors actually teach their classes. They're not taught by TAs and you got to Yale or Harvard or any of those swell schools. And guess what? You may not get Dr. Whohoo who's, written 89 books and so on teaching your physics class, you're going to get the TA. And I'd rather hear it from the person that wrote the book and believe or not when we had to take humanities as a class, it was required class. Everybody had to take humanities.

BJ:  Unfortunately, it was taught at eight o'clock on Saturday morning, some of the sessions, but the professor that wrote the book was a St. Lawrence professor. So he even knew the foot notes that were in the book was that kind of passion that these professors brought to their particular field, but their passion for teaching was just remarkable. And I think when we talking about what class influenced them, name your favorite professor, or name your favorite class, what's your favorite memory? You know, and so on, there was no question. I mean, some of us had several, it wasn't just one professor that did it. There were many, and some of them were outside of our majors, which is remarkable. There were professors that had a reputation, their classes sold out, if you will, when you go to registration, you got locked out because they were so popular. What a good feeling that has to be for a professor, A, and B for a college where they have such great educators that the students can't wait to get into that class.

Tarrah:  I couldn't agree anymore. I think when I was at St. Lawrence, something I always wanted, and I don't know if I talked about it with anyone or not, or if I just thought it, and I don't know if I should say this or not, but I always wondered why and how there were so many professors, such incredible professors. I mean, the North Country is incredible and I love the North Country, but I mean, me being as active in needing social interaction all the time, I always wondered how St. Lawrence always had all these professors that were like world class professors in the middle of nowhere. And it's in the middle of nowhere, but the middle of everywhere. I always wondered that, but I couldn't agree more. I took some of my favorite classes. I actually was just asked a couple of months ago what my favorite class was. And it's still sitting with me because I didn't have an answer and I should have.

Tarrah:  It was a moment that I needed to have one, but there were so many that I couldn't... I could go on for forever, but I think something that's different about St. Lawrence is that the people are real and you can connect with them. And the professors have flaws. Advancement has flaws. Communications has flaws. Everyone has, students have flaws. Everyone has flaws, but it's not something that's hidden I feel. I mean, I think sometimes everyone always tries to hide their flaws, but for the most part, St. Lawrence is very open and real. I remember when my class got pretty overwhelmed with how we were going to be sent off before graduating. And so I jumped on a Zoom with President Fox and I was talking to him and I was asking him his thoughts on it all.

Tarrah:  And obviously everyone makes decisions that they probably could have made a better one, but then you can only make a certain decision based on what you have at the time. But he was telling me all of this and he was telling me how he could have made this better, but it's life. And I sort of that moment, I was like, wow, you're a real person making very big decisions, but you're being honest about how like that's life and that's how it goes. So I think that's something with St. Lawrence with even now working, whenever I do something or do a project wrong or whatever it might be, or delete a file or whatever it is. I realize that you're just real and that if you tried to hide any of that, you can't, it always comes up. And I think that's something that St. Lawrence has instilled in all of us.

Denny:  Really appreciate that observation it's having been here sort of in the administration. I'm an alum, I think in alarming, number of administrators are actual alums and then of course the alumni councils alums and the trustees are alums. So it really kind of is the St. Lawrence community. When you think about it, but I did have a question for you, Tarrah, something I've been curious about almost from the beginning. I remembered thinking to myself, because we have now currently four and a half year old son, who's been living through the pandemic and he wore masks like a champ. He never batted an eyelash. He thought it was fun. He would happily wear them longer than any of the rest of us would without complaining cause to him, it's just, oh, cool mask. Right?

Tarrah:  With dinosaurs on it.

Denny:  And I hypothesized in that instant that he's probably going to have a weird kind of nostalgia about the pandemic, right? Because masks he'll see them and it'll be like this weird kind of Americana or something that associated with his childhood. I'm just curious. I know this is a weird question. I think a lot of people were curious, how are students handling this? And I'm wondering if you have any kind of weird, COVID specific things that came out of being a student and amongst that creative and maybe a bit mischievous and enthusiastic group of people that are the St. Lawrence people. If you have any weird nostalgia already related to your time as a student in that very unique time period?

Tarrah:  So great question. It's wild that you asked that because when I moved to Boston and I was sort of figuring out what I was bringing. I had this little bag and before I went back to St. Lawrence in the fall, cause I sent us home in the spring and then we came back in the fall masks everywhere all the time. And I didn't really have a mask because I was living north of Toronto with my family and we didn't really go out because Canada was very locked down for a very long time. That's right. And so I didn't really have masks because I didn't go anywhere and I didn't really do anything. I would wear one into the grocery store and that was pretty much it. So then it went coming back to school. I was like, oh my gosh, I'm going to be wearing mask all the time.

Tarrah:  I have to be an athlete. I have to like be a student. I have to be a leader. I have to do all these things, but I need a mask. So I naturally, as we do now went online and I ordered the cutest mask, most comfortable masks I could find, but I still have them and I don't wear them anymore because I don't know why I don't wear them, but I was going to get rid of them because sort of lessening up masks and everything recently. But I was like, I don't think I can get rid of these, because I feel some sort of connection with them that I went through all these things.

Denny:  I'm like you. I'm such a sucker for that kind of thing. I'm right there. Yeah.

BJ:  I see in a vision a patchwork quilt. Oh, that's such a good idea and you frame it.

Tarrah:  You know what? I'm going to do that. And I'm going to, I don't think I can do a quilt cause I don't think I have quite enough. I'm going to do a pillow. I'm going to do a pillow size.

Denny:  Oh, that's nice.

Tarrah:  I'm going to do that. I'll send you a picture after

BJ:  It's fun.

Denny:  It's funny that you mentioned that when our son was born, my mom pulled out of the attic, the box that I didn't know existed. I realized I had no memory of these things. And then as I open up the box, she had thought to do this and she remembered stories about me from then and give, gave me that now that I have a kid who I'm now giving it to, but it reminds me of something you were talking about, the reflect word that you had for, I've heard this theory and I'm not, I don't know the exact specifics of it. I believe it was a, like a neuroscience idea or something to that effect, but that we don't store our memories all in our own head. Our brain can't hold all our memories. So we scatter them across our community.

Denny:  And so you, as a parent or your parents, they have a lot of your memories stored in their head.

BJ:  Yes they do.

Denny:  And you realize that when they tell you and all of a sudden you're like, yeah, I do remember all those things, but I didn't until you unlocked it. And a very similar thing happens at reunion in that you get together, you do that reflecting process that you were talking about. And all of a sudden you realize your classmates had stored so many of your memories in their brains. And now as they're like they brought the keys with them and they're unlocking those memories for you. And that might be the most, from my experience with it, the most sort of joyful aspect of coming back for reunion.

BJ:  I think so. When I think back I'll have people say, BJ, remember when you did so and so and I'll say, yeah, huh. All in that you blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. On the bus, on the bus to this, to the ski hill. Because back then, Tarrah, we had to have a gym requirement in order to graduate, like two years? So you had to have four consecutive units of gym. Well, I took skiing. There are no ski hills on Long Island where I'm spot. I learned how to ski. So there was a bus and you strapped your skis on the side of the bus and off you went and someone recently said something, oh, BJ, I remember you were so kind to me on the bus, the ski bus. And I thought, I have no recollection. None. And she described the story and I thought, oh my goodness. So you're right. You're absolutely right, Denny.

Denny:  So much of that will happen. Yeah. So I know that we're kind of coming up on our time here, but I feel like it would be a good sort of opportunity, Tarrah, you're heading into your first reunion. You have some veterans on the call currently. What do you want to know?

Tarrah:  Okay. So my first question is what is the best theme you've seen at reunion for the parade?

Denny:  Definitely going to leave this one for BJ.

BJ:  One year, I decided we were just going to have these Panama hats. I had a St. Lawrence graduate who did embroidery and she embroidered, you know, 72 is the new 40, because you've heard that expression. You know, people get old, they think they're young. Well, they're not, they're old, but so young. So, red boas and that was wonderful. It was a lot of fun and that was our banner. One of the better ones we did was for my 45th. And because it was our 45th, someone came up with the idea of 45's. We used that as our theme. And so we came up with all of these songs that were on 45's and those were our banners. Well, we won. It was wonderful.

Tarrah:  Wow, that's very clever. That's cool.

BJ:  We had T-shirts the whole nine yards. But this year, because it's our 50th, my group has come up with a great idea. And that's because we're the next to last class that ever wore beanies. We each got a beanie that came on campus that had a little felt 72 on the front. And it was fabric felt. It wasn't like baseball caps. They were really funny little beanies. And so there was also something called a Boonie. I don't know if that's, that's still exists, but big time because there was no visitation. If you wanted to see your guy friend or your girlfriend, you had to go it alone somewhere, somewhere to just be alone. And so a Boonie was that, you had a blanket, you had a couple of beers or whatever, or sodas or picnic, whatever, but you, and a way you went. And so our theme for our reunion is beanies, boonies, blankets and beer.

Denny:  Oh, that's wonderful.

BJ:  So the great part is, and this is the best part is that in, I'm giving away a trade secret here, but the wife of one of my classmates has made this magnificent patchwork quilt on St. Lawrence and the patterns that she used is very significant. They have to do with flocks returning. That's one of the patterns that she used. And another one is a friendship pattern that she's using and it's all scarlet and brown. It has the St. Lawrence insignia in the middle and it's a king size. So our theme is that we've got the best boonie blanket ever.

Amelia:  That's amazing.

Tarrah:  That is truly iconic. So really iconic.

Denny:  That's wonderful.

BJ:  What's wonderful about, as much as COVID certainly influenced your entire college experience or a good portion of it, Tarrah, that could be the joke. That could be the butt of the joke. I mean, you can return with masks on the rest of your lives and everyone will get the joke, anyone that's living because they will have known, oh, this is the COVID class.

Tarrah:  Writing that down. Writing that down. This is COVID class because I love this because I think the parade, isn't what I would say my class is focusing on. I'm not going to say that we don't have a theme yet, but I would say that's a really great idea. And I would say COVID, everyone was kind of everywhere and didn't really know what they were doing. So that could be our theme. I'm definitely rolling with that now.

Denny:  Very nice.

Amelia:  Just like, walk in different directions during the parade.

Tarrah:  Exactly. Yeah.

Denny:  So I had actually been thinking, because I remember as a senior, I think I worked reunion for part of it. And I was like, parade, you got to be kidding me. That's that's dumb. Right. And then I came into this role and in the first role I had in the office, I managed the student workers and I thought, I can't believe there's a parade of this thing. Adults are going to walk in this parade. Seriously? And then I get there and I see it in real life. And I was emotionally overwhelmed. It was like goosebumps. The whole time student workers were in tears as like certain classes would go by or just like hysterically, like clapping and laughing. And it is the most emotionally powerful part of the whole weekend. I cannot explain it on paper. It looks ridiculous, but it is in real life, in real life. It is just so my advice would just be don't overlook the parade. The parade's awesome.

Tarrah:  Okay. So Denny, so you'll, you'll be a spokesperson for the parade for our class.

Denny:  Yeah. I highly advocate. It's a mistake to, and also every fifth year reunion, which is normally the earliest out, they almost inevitably don't take you serious and they learn and by the next ones, they're more involved.

Tarrah:  That's so funny.

Denny:  So another observation I made about reunion, just having seen a lot of them in this role. So I'm actually in a reunion this year. I'm in the, my class is in its 15th and I'm part of that 15th cluster. So you might be inclined to think that being the one year out class, that it'll be a linear thing of like you guys will be having the most fun staying at the latest, you know, and then next will be the 15th and then next will be, but you would be a mistaken. You, your class will indeed, because the fifth always is. So I do think you will be in the running, but you're not a sure fire bet because a funny thing happens, my class will be there and it'll be very cute. There'll be lots of kids running around and we're going to have our feet up by nine o'clock, probably in our dorm room, right? And that's how it always goes. And the same thing for the 10th and the same thing for the fifth, always they come, they party it up like it's senior week. Sure. The 10th, the 15th, the 20th, much more subdued you get to the 35th. And a funny thing happens. They bring their A-game. I'll just put it that way.

BJ:  That's the recharge part.

Denny:  They have a really fun time. And that continues on through the 40th and the 45th and the 50th. And just trust me. Yeah, you'll see.

Tarrah:  All right.

Denny:  I'll leave it at that.

BJ:  It's that Bruce Springsteen song Glory Days.

Denny:  So you may think that you will own the weekend, but in fact, you will have a lot of competition.

Amelia:  Well, I feel like we can't possibly top this conversation off in a better way, but I just wanted to thank you, both Tarrah and BJ for just sharing your love and excitement and stories and insights. This hour has gone by faster than any hour I've ever spent. And I wish we could like talk to you all night long. And thank you for everything that you're doing for St. Lawrence and reunion this year.

BJ:  Thank You, Tarrah. I can't wait to meet you in-person.

Tarrah:  Yes. Looking forward to it. I'll catch you at the parade and then at The Hoot.

Denny:  There you go. That's what we like to hear.

Amelia:  Awesome.

Tarrah:  Thank you both.

BJ:  Thank you.

Denny:  Thank you so much.

BJ:  Bye bye.

Denny:  Well, I am certainly excited for the weekend after that. Thank you so much to our guests. And thank you so much to you, our listeners, and to all of you who are coming back to visit us this weekend, we could not be more excited to see you. And for those of you who are not going to be with us this weekend, you will be there in spirit and we will catch you next time. And until then we will be back at you a month from now with our next episode.

Amelia:  Absolutely. Thanks everybody.

[Music Plays]

Beth:  Scarlet and Brown Stories is edited and produced by Amanda Brewer, Megan Fry Dozier, Dennis Morreale, Beth Dixon and Amelia Jantzi.

Amelia:  Our music was written by Christopher Watts inspired by Eugene Wright, class of '49.

Beth:  Subscribe to Scarlet and Brown Stories on Apple podcasts, Spotify, and wherever you listen to podcasts.

Amelia:  If you have a story you'd like to submit to us, you can email us at connect@stlawu.edu.

[Music Ends]

[Theme Music Plays]

Amelia:  Hello everyone. And welcome to another episode of Scarlet & Brown Stories. This is your co-host Amelia Jantzi back again, and this time I am joined with my co-host Megan Fry Dozier. You might have noticed if you've been listening for a while, that we do a little bit of a switcharoo of our hosts every now and again, so that you can get to know different members of our team. And I am so excited to be joined by my dear friend, Megan, who will tell you a little bit about the guest we'll be chatting with in just a minute.

Megan:  Hi everyone. I am super excited to be here today, and even more excited to tell you about our guest for this afternoon. Danica Cunningham class of 2013. Danica is a founding member of the Upbeats on campus and is now a music therapist in Burlington, Vermont.

Amelia:  So, let's jump right in.

[Music Plays]

Amelia:  Welcome Danica.

Danica:  Thanks so much for having me. I'm really glad to be here today.

Amelia:  Well, we're so excited to have you here. And I think for me, I'm someone who grew up with a lot of music. I grew up down the road from the Crane School of Music. So, I was so excited to see your work history and your work in music therapy and that sounded so cool. I was wondering if you could just kick things off by telling us what music therapy is.

Danica:  Absolutely. It really is the coolest job you've ever asked for. As a music therapist, I get to use music to address non-musical goals in a clinical setting. So, I work with all types of different populations, different age groups, different diagnoses, different levels of abilities, and I get to make their lives more meaningful or productive through musical interventions. So, it's going to look different for every single person. Music therapy is an evidence-based practice that's conducted by board certified music therapists. So, I might be walking down the Holloway of a hospital with an instrument cart, but I'm not just the music lady who's there to entertain kids or for pure entertainment. I get to go into different rooms, and I get to really just adjust the unique needs of the client.

Danica:  Sometimes it's going to look like listening to music. Sometimes it's going to look like making music. Maybe we'll be composing original songs, and maybe we're just improvising and working on communication skills, whether it's taking turns or listening to each other and responding or mimicking each other, asking musical questions. Really just using the musical experience as a metaphor for communication, connection, and executive function.

Amelia:  Wow. That just sounds so fascinating. And like you said, it sounds like there's a lot of variety in what you do and very tailored to each person that you work with. Who do you mainly work with?

Danica:  Currently, I work mostly with young adults with different diagnoses from autism to down syndrome to mental health needs, as far as addressing depression, anxiety, and grief. I'm based out of Burlington, Vermont. This is my home now. And I work through the UVM Home Health & Hospice for pediatric palliative care. So, I get to work with families, with children who have really severe medical needs, and we're often working as the whole family unit. So, I'm assigned to a client, but that doesn't necessarily mean I won't be also working with their brother or sister or maybe grandma who lives in the house or a parent, because as you might imagine, when you're in that condition or that situation, it really affects everyone involved.

Amelia:  For sure. So do your clients that you work with, have they had exposure to music at all before, or is it a mix that some people already have played instruments or musical, and in some cases, you're really introducing music to them?

Danica:  So, you do not need to be a musician to benefit from music therapy. The only requirement is that music is motivating to you. So, if I have a new client, I'm going to go through an investment period and we're going to take a look at those baseline behaviors and assess where those levels are. And then we're going to implement musical interventions or musical experiences and see if that behavior changes in the direction that we want it to change in.

Danica:  And if that does in fact happen in the initial assessment period, then that is a good sign that they're a good fit for music therapy. And there are instances where music therapy wasn't motivating for behavior changes. So, in that case, I would either recommend someone else in the community who might have a different set of specialty in music therapy, or maybe refer them to art therapy, talk therapy, occupational therapy, depending on what's presented.

Amelia:  What inspired you to pursue music therapy?

Danica:  Well, I really did not know what I was getting into when I applied for grad school to become a music therapist, but I did know two things. I knew that I loved music and that I loved helping people and working with people in the trenches, hands on. I graduated from St. Lawrence with a double major in psychology and music. So, I had that background of psychology and knew how much I loved the brain and just understanding how the mind works.

Danica:  And then of course the music aspect, not only was it a big part of my social wellbeing, but also it never ceases to inspire me to be the best person I can be, whether it’s a good listener or a good communicator or a positive member in the community. So, it just felt like a really natural transition out of undergrad. And if I hadn't heard about music therapy, I don't know if I would've been doing it today. So, advocacy is a huge part of what I do as well, which is why I'm so glad to be here today to spread the word a little bit more about what I get to do.

Megan:  Yeah. That's just so interesting of seeing how all those different threads of experience can come together and end up taking you on your life's course when it's not something you ever expected to see or expected to end up in. Those friends of yours that knew you in college, what do they say about knowing that you're a music therapist now?

Danica:  I would say they probably aren't too surprised. I was a gangster as a freshman, and I was in all the ensembles from the lore and singers. I got to be one of the founding members of the Upbeats because I was a freshman that year. And I was so involved in the music community at St. Lawrence. And it really fostered a whole another side of my understanding of myself. And it really was the roots of also what got me into music therapy because growing up, I played classical violin and that was a very isolating experience. It was a lot of you go to your lesson, you come home you practice, you go to orchestra rehearsal where everyone has friends, but there was no orchestra in my school. So, I was the outlier and didn't have that social connection to music until I got to Gaines College and learned that I can connect with my friends without even talking.

Danica:  You have this really rich interaction and this deep level of meaningful connection with my peers and my mentors through the language of music. And that was really powerful for me. And it showed me that I had more to offer than just being an ensemble member because I was innately connecting during our jams or supervising or learning a song together. It's so much teamwork and so much identity wrapped up in being a musician. So, it was my first time really exploring how to interact in that way in a relaxed environment. And without any rules, I got to do what I wanted. I got to break the rules. It was so exciting.

Amelia:  Oh, it's so true. And there's so much about being a musician with others that relies on listening and hearing what other people are playing or singing and hearing yourself. I would imagine that critical listening that's so key to musicianship is something that must be really helpful in your work in therapy.

Danica:  Absolutely. I have to have a really fine-tuned filter for what is this person trying to say? Or I know it might look like we're just playing the drums here, but I'm looking at their body language. I'm looking at that little breath they took right after they heard the chorus of a song where the words are really meaningful. Or I might have to read between the lines if someone's non-verbal or verbal communication is an area that we're working on. So, it really has become my superpower to enter an unknown situation and really just be receptive to, first of all, seeing the light and the authentic beauty of who they are just as they are. And also to see what little hints of offering they might provide for me to grab on and explore and build upon, and then scaffold from there.

Danica:  And it's amazing because sometimes there's occupational therapists, physical therapists, speech therapists, who are also working with these students and they'll come into music therapy and say, "Wow. I've never gotten this person to communicate in the way that it's happening in here. And yeah, I'm using my facilitation skills, but that's where the music really does the work." And that just fascinates me every single day. And it's a continuous exploration in how I can use the tools that I know work and adapt them to those little hints of how it might be impactful to the other person.

Megan:  How has the pandemic affected your ability to be able to do that work?

Danica:  Well, here we are on... I've got my ukulele. I've got my drums. I've got my guitars. Everything's here. We are at the home studio. I've been doing a lot of Zoom sessions. Unfortunately, not much group work anymore, but it's been an adjustment to adapt to Zoom sessions, but it's the same thing. It's if I can open my heart and my presence big enough to still find those places to connect, the work is able to still get done. So, we have a ton of fun. We can still make a lot of music and every day I wish I could be in the room with them, because there's something about being in the space with a client and making music, sharing the same wavelengths of the room itself, but we definitely make it work.

Danica:  And it's allowed me to see people who I wouldn't normally have seen. When the pandemic started, I started up a kid's, not music therapy, but just a kid's group for my cousin. She had just had a baby and they wanted music. So, it ended up being where there was someone from Australia. There was someone from London. There was someone from Seattle. And everyone was coming in together and we were making music and had a little, twice a week ritual of making music together and building a community during that really tough, uncertain time when things first shut down and it was a cornerstone for stability and routine that was really powerful.

Megan:  That's awesome. I think that mental health is something that we've all been talking about a lot more lately and even still just missing that feeling of connection. I was wondering, are there principles from your work that people or even our students here at St. Lawrence can employ in their everyday lives as their going through their schoolwork and their relationships and stressors and things they have going on?

Danica:  Absolutely. Music is so accessible outside of the music therapy space. And though you might not be working directly with a music therapist using music for self-care and self-regulation are just such important tools to navigate these times. Making a playlist for the drive home if you're anxious about seeing people out outside of your pod. Or creating space to learn a new instrument and to spend some of that downtime, we've had watching YouTube videos or just noodling around on garage band. Or writing lyrics and trying to collaborate with other musicians, whether in person or remotely. There's tons of tools to really find some peace, find some self-expression and ask some of those hard questions and those big questions of all the things that have been coming up in the last two years. I hope that addresses what you asked, because head is thrilling with just how much music and going to shows, being back in a space where I'm able to perform live again and go see live music. What a mental health shift that's been as well, just to be able to express a little bit. Let loose a little bit.

Amelia:  Yeah. Do you perform live?

Danica:  Yes. So, there's a really rich live music community here in Burlington, Vermont, and I get to perform in two different bands. The Worm Dogs is my bluegrass rock and roll band. And Honey and Soul is my folk trio band. And they fill up my cup so that I can offer myself to my clients and be as present for them as possible because I love nothing more than to perform on the weekends and then show up on Monday with a full schedule of making music for others for a completely different reason.

Amelia:  Oh, it sounds like Megan, and I need to take a road trip to Burlington and listen to one of your groups. Both of those sounds so cool.

Megan:  Absolutely. I have to ask the name, Worm Dogs, where did that come from?

Danica:  If you do make it up here, you'll see. We're just a bunch of misfits who just have a good time and don't take any of the performing or the music too seriously. It's just about being together and having fun with our instruments on stage. It's just speaks to the joy that we bring to each other. And both of my bands have become my Vermont family here. It's also very cool to see so many St. Lawrence alumni just out and about at the shows too. And I think next weekend, there's a bill at the Radio Bean and all four bands are St. Lawrence folks.

Amelia:  No way.

Megan:  I love that.

Amelia:
That's so cool. And yeah, it's true. Special shout out to our Laurentians in Burlington. It's a really special community out there. That must be so fun though, to be able to share that love of music in that community as well.

Megan:  Absolutely. Shameless Plug June 7th, we do have a reception out at Hula in Burlington. It's a venue that's owned by Russ and Roxanne Scully. So, we're super excited to get together with all of the Laurentians out in that area in just a couple months.

Danica:  That sounds great. Maybe I'll be able to come on through.

Megan:  I hope so. Bring the ukulele.

Danica:  I should bring my fiddle maybe. That was just for fun exploration.

Amelia:  Oh gosh. You're talking about these different bands that you're a part of and the different instruments, what is your favorite instrument of choice?

Danica:  Well, I perform on the fiddle, and I love to harmonize and sing. So, I would say those are my main instruments. I love the banjo. I love electric guitar. I love the bass. I love any instrument because I see it as a tool to be curious and to be openhearted. So, I might not know all the chords to the banjo, but I'll play it. I'll figure out relationships between notes. I might hear a song that does have banjo on it, and I really want to learn just that song. So, I'll work towards learning just that. And that's the way I see music generally.

Amelia:  Going back a little bit to music therapy and how impactful music is in people's lives and how personal it is. If you had to articulate what is the most rewarding thing for you as a music therapist, what would that be?

Danica:  That's a really hard question. There's so much for me to be grateful about, and that is so rewarding in what I do. I think it's got to be seeing people having the courage to meet me where they're at and the courage to hit the drum just once. It's usually all it takes to really see someone emerge. I guess the best part is that music speaks to everyone in some way. And if I can create a space that feels safe enough and open enough that you can feel like you can be yourself and maybe take a risk and know that you are perfect just the way you are. That's what gives me the most joy just to see clients and showing up and being themselves and honoring me with being able to be present with them while they get to be themselves. It's really beautiful work because the smallest musical experience might shift someone's whole day or their whole outlook.

Danica:  And we can build confidence through successful musical experiences. If verbal communication is the scariest thing in the world to you, I'm happy to practice that back and forth without talking. Might just be drumming back and forth and working on some of those social ideas for a long time, until that feels good. Then I get to see them push a little bit harder and maybe they'll vocalize with a song and maybe we'll start eyeing together. And how cool is that? That's a big step for that person. And then maybe they'll make a choice of they want this drum or a different instrument. So, it's really just a beautiful journey of facilitating individuals to be empowered to make their own choices and to live proudly and presently.

Megan:  It's such a privilege to see people go through that journey.

Danica:  It really is. And I get the best seat in the house because like I said, the music does the work. I graduated from Colorado State University for my gradual equivalency program. And there they specialize in neurologic music therapy. So, I got to take music therapy courses and neuro classes side by side. I was learning how the brain works on a very intimate level while learning how music fits into that. So, working with a lot of traumatic brain injury, rehabilitation and Parkinson's and stroke science and learning how there's no one spot in the brain that processes music, it activates both sides of the hemisphere of your brain. And it activates your motor cortex, your speech and language, memory, coordination, you name it.

Danica:  Music has this neural network in your brain that is so rich. And now that we know more about neuroplasticity and neural neurons, we can apply that scientifically through scientific evidence-based practices to administer music rehabilitation. And you can see that these neural networks just working around a damaged area to rewire and to rehabilitate or to preserve those networks as long as possible depending on the diagnosis.

Megan:  Wow. Can you use any type of music for that? The thing that's coming to my mind is I feel like you grow up hearing rap music or death metal, or like all these different genres and the effect they're having on the youth, et cetera, et cetera. Can you use all genres for this type of work or is anyone looking at how the classical violin versus the fiddle are interpreted by the brain?

Danica:  Yeah. So, the most powerful thing about music choice in the music therapy world is the preferences of the client. If my client is in their 40s and they listen to heavy metal all throughout those really formative years of their early 20s, metal is going to be the thing that is really meaningful to them because there's so many associations to life experiences there. So, if we're working on something that is going to be addressing self-identity, self-expression, anything along those emotional self-areas, that's going to be really important.

Danica:  However, if working on emotional regulation is what the goal is, then a client might be really heightened and really escalated. So, we might start some heavy metal, like meet them where they're at, ISO principle. And we're going to work our way down some really relaxing music that it might be like a distorted electric guitar, but the rhythm's going to be a lot slower. The busyness of the notes is there's going to be more space and we're going to really be trying to regulate the body.

Danica:  So, it's all just based on the need. And music is so abstract and so versatile that I need to be able to see what that need is. Whether I'm reading bowl on IEP or from a case manager, I'm going to need to know what they want addressed, but I can't address any speech and language goals if we're really heightened right now. So, I need to be able to see that we need to deescalate and regulate before we can even think about attention or communication.

Megan:  It's good to know that I will still be listening to Taylor Swift in 40 years because that's definitely been the soundtrack for a long time.

Amelia:  There we go. It is so interesting thinking about how music impacts all of us. I think most people on this call know that I always cry at Christmas music because it's like for me in those formative years something that was really powerful. So, it's just interesting hearing about the cognitive reasons for why we react the way we do with music. Yeah. Super powerful. Super interesting.

Danica:  So just knowing that you respond in that way to Christmas music, there's so many ways that we can look at that little nugget right there and try to expand upon it to create some more meaning around that. To be curious what's underneath that, how we can use it for tough times or for anything that might come up. And then of course, knowing how and why that's happening. It's just the groundwork for all the creative problem solving I get to do above that.

Amelia:  Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, it's just you find these almost these little doors or windows into what makes people the way they are, it sounds like.

Danica:  Exactly. Yeah. What inspires them or what is meaningful or what makes a response happen.

Amelia:  For sure.

Megan:  Is there a question that we don't know enough to ask or something that you wish people would ask about your work?

Danica:  Well, if anyone who listened to this has someone in mind who might benefit from music therapy, that's going to be someone who like we talked about earlier, who's just behavior totally changes with the addition of music. If they're looking for a resource to explore music therapy in their town, the American Music Therapy Association is an incredible resource and there's a roster that breaks down by state different agencies or private practices that you can reach out to, to see if you can get some of those services. Because every day I get to tell people more and more about what I do.

Danica:  And every day there's so many more referrals coming in. Especially during these times, there's a big need for just space and work around just being okay. And of course, that's going to look different for everyone. But music is translatable outside of the clinical space. It's accessible. You can just pop some earphones in if you don't have an instrument at home. So, it's really a functional and adaptable mode of therapy that can be on people's radar.

Megan:  Thank you for sharing that.

Amelia:  Yeah. And then I was curious if there's someone out there that was listening to this or had come across music therapy before and is really excited about that and wants to explore that more and maybe pursue a career in music therapy. What would you tell them?

Danica:  I would say go for it. If you have a musical background or you don't, but want to work really hard to get that musical foundation, that's going to be step number one so that you can enter into these programs. Worldwide there's music therapy programs available at universities. I went through the Master's Equivalency Program, but there's also undergrad programs that you can start out as a freshman in. And there's amazing different schools of thought that come into play. Like I said, I came from the neurologic music therapy background, but there's behavioral music therapy, analytical music therapy. There's one called Bonny Method of Imagery. Nordoff Robbins is going to be more improvisational based. Just all these very cool schools of thought that make up our profession.

Danica:  So, exploring what the different options are and just doing interviews, asking questions, reading up on the different programs and following your art on what feels right. I would highly recommend this for anyone who feels like they can be present with other people, and can problem solve in a creative way, because no one tells you how to do music therapy. They tell you what the tools are. You learn skills of how to be in a therapeutic relationship, but there's no prescription for specific things. You have to apply your knowledge and understanding of how music affects the brain and body. And then you have to apply your understanding of the diagnoses or the particular nature of the person you're working with. And you have to be able to meaningfully bridge those two together to facilitate those musical connections.

Megan:  I don't know if we had started rolling yet, but in the beginning you referred yourself as a professional improviser. I just love that title.

Danica:  Yeah. Always got to be on my toes and it's never a dull moment. Some of the clients I see I've been seeing for years, and I have a deep relationship with. Other settings, I see them once and that's it. So, it's really being able to adapt in the moment and if you've ever performed or done clinical work in any way that you might go in with a plan, but you have to be willing to adjust the plan, adapt to the plan and be ready for the curve falls because they will come and that's the best part. So that is why I get to have so much fun being the professional improviser.

Megan:  Awesome. One question that I have that has nothing to do with musical therapy, but I'm just really curious about your insight. If you could put a billboard on Route 11 that had any message that you wanted to share with all the people driving down Route 11, what would it say?

Danica:  You are enough as you are right now.

Megan:  I love that.

Amelia:  That's beautiful.

Danica:  My private practice is called as you are music therapy. That's my philosophy, the wholeheartedly. So, I try to embody that in every decision I make, every interaction I have and every time I'm faced with a challenge, I try to come from that place of, wait a second. Everyone is already equipped with what they need. How can we find that together? How can we access those skills?

Amelia:  Well, I think that's a great place to wrap up our conversation. Danica, I hope you had as much fun chatting with us as we did chatting with you and learning more about this. It's definitely making me want to go crack open my old piano books and find a way to fit a piano into my apartment. This was wonderful. Thank you.

Danica:  And if anyone ever wants to reach out and talk to me personally, if they're interested in becoming a music therapist or have other questions, I'm totally open to that because that's what I believe in too, is sharing the knowledge and we tackled a big iceberg and we only hit the tip of it.

Amelia:  What's the best way for people to contact you?

Danica:  Yeah. So, if you want to reach me through the alumni association, that would be an awesome way to get in touch if you have any other questions.

Amelia:  Awesome. Thank you, Danica.

Megan:  Thank you so much.

Danica:  Thank you.

[Music Plays]

Amelia:  Well, there you have it. Our conversation with Danica Cunningham class of 2013. And I have to say as someone who has grown up around music, I absolutely love this conversation and Danica's joy with what she does was just infectious. What do you think, Megan?

Megan:  I mean, like she said, we touched the tip of the iceberg in terms of the work that she does. And it was just so interesting to hear about the different ways that music affects the brain, the different ways that it builds relationship and communication. I know that I love listening to Spotify, but I didn't realize how much was going on behind that. So, it was really cool to learn a little bit about what she does in her day to day.

Amelia:  Absolutely. And yeah, I feel like I now have to take a trip to Burlington and to listen to one of her bands. So, I better be looking at your calendar, Megan, for a road trip to Burlington.

Megan:  Absolutely.

Amelia:  And all you Burlington based alumni out there, you should definitely be keeping an eye out for Danica's playing.

Megan:  100%. Let's go saints and let's go Worm Dogs.

Amelia:  Awesome. Well, we'll see you next time on Scarlet & Brown Stories. Thanks everyone.

[Theme Music Plays]

Beth Dixon:  Scarlet & Brown Stories is edited and produced by Amanda Brewer, Megan Fry Dozier, Dennis Morreale, Beth Dixon, and Amelia Jantzi.

Amelia:  Our music was written by Christopher Watts inspired by Eugene Wright, class of '49.

Beth:  Subscribe to Scarlet & Brown Stories on Apple podcasts, Spotify, and wherever you listen to podcasts.

Amelia:  If you have a story you'd like to submit to us, you can email us at connect stlawu.edu.

[Music Ends]
 

[Intro Music Plays]

Beth:  Hello everyone. And welcome back to another addition of Scarlet & Brown Stories. I'm your host, Beth Dixon. And I am so excited this month. Not only do we have another fascinating Laurentian story, I also have a new co-host for this episode. We have Megan Fry Dozier, another one of the producers of the podcast. She is the associate director of Laurentian engagement and development initiatives. And I'm so excited to run this interview with Megan. Megan, how are you doing today?

Megan:  I am doing wonderful, Beth, thank you so much. And hello to all of our lovely listeners out there. It is my great pleasure and privilege to introduce our Laurentian guest for this afternoon. His name is Ross Gibby and he is a graduate of the class of '89. Ross was a government major and took part in the Kenya semester program. From there, he went on to work in television with various acting credits to his name, which led him to working in documentaries and to his position today at CRDC Global, working to solve the problem of plastic waste, which is a huge problem in our society. So it's really exciting to see Laurentians taking ownership of that and making the world a better place for all of us.

Beth:  He just sounds so fascinating. So I can't wait to get into this interview, so let's wait no further. Here is our interview with Ross Gibby, class of 1989.

[Music Plays]

Megan:  We are so excited to be here today with Ross Gibby, class of '89. Ross, thank you so much for being with us today.

Ross:  Absolutely. It's my pleasure.

Megan:  So we're going to jump right into it. Could you tell us a little bit about your St. Lawrence journey and how it led you to where you are today?

Ross:  Wow. Okay. Well, it was a long time ago, so there's a lot that's happened between then and now. But I think what I would say is that St. Lawrence really started an exploration. My career has been incredibly circuitous. It's been all over the place. And I think what St. Lawrence really established was that freedom to explore that safe community. Obviously a liberal arts college, obviously a campus that is relatively self-contained. So a lot of opportunity to just figure it out, try new things, try new subjects. I think I changed my major probably four times.

Ross:  I took advantage of one of the Jan term programs in Australia. I went to Kenya on the Kenya semester program. So I think St. Lawrence really set the foundation for that exploration that's continued into my professional life, into my career, but I pursued acting after I left St. Lawrence. Oh, I actually should mention that St. Lawrence really was the place that started my real interest, my professional interest, in acting. It's a small theater arts program there. It gave me an opportunity without a whole lot of experience to audition for a production. It ended up being probably the top three best acting experiences of my entire life, oddly enough. It kind of set the hook.

Ross:  It was literally a two person play about Vietnam. It was called TKO. It was written by one of the professors, one of the theater professors, at St. Lawrence. The whole thing was set in a boxing ring. So the audience was on all four sides of the ring. It was in the Black Box Theater and they hired a real Vietnam vet to play one of the roles. And then I played everything else. In other words, I played his entire experience. And so I had probably 12 different roles from his guy in the foxhole with him to a Vietnamese girlfriend, to a drill Sergeant. His entire experience. So it was a real incredible artistic experience, a real incredible theater experience that really got me hooked. And I ended up pursuing that afterwards and I went and got an MFA and acting after, and then pursued a professional career.

Beth:  When you were pursuing that career in entertainment, were you going more for film and television? Were you doing theater? Were you doing whatever you could find at that moment?

Ross:  Yeah. I mean really ultimately what happens is you got to pay the bills, right? I was trained in the MFA program at Rutgers University as a theater actor. That's really what most formal acting programs do is train you for probably the most difficult type of acting, which is going to be Shakespearean, acting stage acting. I was never really cut out for a lot of the period pieces like Shakespeare. Just the roles I got cast in were much more contemporary, but theater really is and was the passion. And that's what I really wanted to do. However, the theater just does not pay the bills.

Ross:  At that time it was, it was something like $400 a week for like an off Broadway show. And off Broadway, there's off, off Broadway, where rarely do you get paid at all. Then off Broadway is basically a theater that's between a hundred seats and 250 seats. And then Broadway is over 250 seats. And so you had to take what you could get. And I was fortunate enough to get some soap opera work early. So I got some on camera experience and then most of my career was really in television. And I liked doing that because most TV jobs, at least when you're a guest on a show, it's quick. You're doing it for two or three days at the most. You're doing it for 10 days over two weeks. So it's the kind of thing where you could make a good buck, but still have the free time to audition and the free time to pursue the theater.

Beth:  That's so interesting to me. So I attended St. Lawrence and majored in what is now performance and communication arts. And so you had the theater arts kind of side of it, and then rhetoric and communication is the other side. And my whole idea was like, I would love to be involved with theater, but I cannot go to college and just major in theater. I'm not going to do that. And then I did. And I loved it so much with this idea that's where I really learned like, oh, theater's very much the acting side of entertainment. And then you have television which is writing. And movies which is directors mediums and those kind of things.

Beth:  But you're right. You kind of have to follow where the money is at that time and hope that you can get involved in some capacity in that field. And so I wonder, do you have advice for people who are hoping to make it into entertainment in some capacity as they graduate from St. Lawrence? Is it going to those audition if you're on the acting side or how do you make those connections in order to continue a career in the entertainment field?

Ross:  Yeah. I mean, the only thing I would say is do everything. In other words, it's such a competitive industry, regardless of whether you're on the acting side or the production side, or even the writing, anything creative is going to be incredibly competitive. So what I would say is you'd better have the passion because it's a rough ride. It's definitely a rough road. But if you have the passion and if you have the commitments and the determination, it works itself out, because you will basically take every opportunity you can get. Every opportunity grows your skillset, it grows your level of experience. It grows your network. And those of things that you may not feel are tangible in the short term, but when you look back five years later, you say, oh my gosh, I can't believe that one project allowed me to meet that one person that then two years later ended up being a director of that one play that I got into that was kind of my breakout. I would just say, be determined and stick with it and do everything you absolutely can make it a priority and go for it.

Megan:  It. I think that follows into a little bit more of your career path now. You and I met during SLU Connect Live, which is one of our programs for students to learn more about careers. And as I remember, you're now a COO working in the sustainability field. So could you tell us a little bit of how Broadway and off Broadway and network television led you to where you are now?

Ross:  Yeah, it's actually more connected than you might think, albeit sort of a distant connection. So a as you can imagine, and as I've already alluded to, a career in the entertainment industry means a career in a whole lot of things. In other words, it's very rare that you, especially at the beginning, support yourself solely from your craft, solely from your art. So you end up needing to pursue other avenues to pay the bills and to make ends meet. And as a result, you end up being very creative in how you make your money. And ultimately you end up developing a lot of different skill sets. And I think what I ended up doing was I sort of had a entrepreneurial mindset.

Ross:  And so, because I wanted the free time to be able to audition, I wanted the freedom to be able to take an acting job when it came. I didn't want to commit to any full-time alternative career. I developed a lot of skills. And one of the things I did was I learned how to build websites during the initial .com boom, and then ultimately that evolved into marketing websites. So what I ended up doing in the very early 2000s, was create my own digital marketing agency.

Beth:  Oh wow.

Ross:  And I sort of grew my client based and I developed a really nice business for myself. And a lot of my clients were in the industrial manufacturing space. So when you're marketing for them, you learn their business, you learn exactly what their needs are and what it is they're capable of doing. So I had this kind of network that was already completely outside of the entertainment industry because of this alternative career that I created.

Ross:  Flash forward to probably about five years ago. When I started to evolve, not necessarily out of acting, but a little bit more into writing, producing, directing. It was just an area where I wanted to be a little bit more in control, having my own vision, having my own voice, telling the stories that I really liked and cared about. And so I started to make films. And I made a few films and I got them on some festival circuits. And then through some of the networking that I did there, I ended up coming up with an idea for a TV show. It was not a scripted show. It was something that'd be more like a docuseries. And it was about environmental entrepreneurs. Basically it was a travel show that where you'd go around the world and see a particular geographic region through the lens of a successful environmental entrepreneur in that at region. And so we were shooting a pilot episode for this show, and I was introduced to this person in Costa Rica who had developed this incredible technology for converting non-recyclable plastic waste into a building material for concrete.

Ross:  So I went to Costa Rica, I spent a week shooting this person, and I became obsessed with the process itself. I saw the potential, I was so excited at what it could do for the environment, how it could address this massive issue that we're all currently facing. And so I ended up tapping into that industrial manufacturing network that I had back in the U.S., and I very quickly put together an investment group. And we set up a pilot production facility in New Jersey about three or four months later.

Ross:  So I took the technology from Costa Rica, brought it to the United States, and once it got to the United States, it started to get all sorts of attention from a lot of big players. A lot of the people in the plastics and petrochemical industries, Dow, Chevron, Phillips, Brasco, Georgia Pacific, the American Chemistry Council, all wanted to come see what we were doing at this little pilot facility. And then a result, I kind of became the liaison to all these new connections for the company, CRDC. And ultimately that ended up evolving into more of a global role and ended up growing into where I am now, which is chief operating officer.

Beth:  See, you never know. This is the kind of thing that I tell my students all the time. You never know what those connections are going to be, but you need to be willing to ask or else you don't get in this world, right? So you were able to say I'm obsessed with this idea and this process, let me learn more about it. Let me see where I can be involved and then bring it back. That kind of hustle is really important in terms of making a difference and impact in this world, but also finding those opportunities that are really unique to your skillsets and interests. So that's an incredible, that's such an interesting way to come... From an outsider's perspective, I was like, oh, he probably was an environmental studies major, something like that. And this was something he was always interested in. And so cool to see that, no. Film, television, docuseries kind of brought this all about. So can you tell us a little bit about the mission of CRDC or how is it growing? What's the impact at this point?

Ross:  Yeah, so the official mission of CRDC is to create appreciating value from the world's plastic waste. You may not be fully aware of the statistics, but literally less than 10% of plastic waste or of plastic worldwide is actually being recycled. Remaining 90 plus percent of that either goes into landfill, it gets incinerated, or it ends up in the oceans. All three are really, really bad options. And that happens for a number reasons. One may be that particular material doesn't have an end market. One might be that the infrastructure isn't there to actually recycle it. Another might be that the infrastructure isn't there to recover it. So there are a plethora of reasons why there's such a huge percentage that does not get recycled, but what we can do is we can take all plastic resin. So resins one through seven, our material is called Resin8.

Ross:  So what makes us unique is that we can take the full spectrum of plastic types and we can mix it. There are plenty of products out there that are different resin types that are multi-layer, they can't be recycled because they need to be uniform in order for them to be recycled. We can take all of that. We can take every type of plastic, mixed plastic. And what's really important, is we can all to take dirty plastic. Oh, so we can take plastic that has been collected out of the ocean. Plastic that has been collected out of rivers. Plastic that has been mixed with food waste in a municipal waste stream. That's really what differentiates us. And then we give that plastic an end of life, but an end of life that actually provides value to the concrete and the construction industry.

Ross:  In other words, we convert it into a material that enhances the performance of concrete. It lowers the weight, it lowers the water absorption. It adds thermal properties. So the insulative quality is better. And then that goes into buildings. And buildings, generally our appreciating assets. You put it into a home, that home will appreciate in value. Put it into a commercial building that will appreciate in value. So really that's kind of it in a nutshell. Because we've kind of cracked the code a little bit in being able to take that wide spectrum of plastic waste and we've figured out how to convert it into a value stream for the construction industry.

Beth:  That is so interesting. I now understand Megan a few months ago when she had you on SLU Connect, she came back and she said, "I never thought I'd be so interested in concrete." And now I get it.

Ross:  Yeah.

Megan:  Number one fan of CRDC. And they make fun of me in the office because I've been obsessed for the past year about this. But I feel like I have to ask. Right? It sounds almost too good to be true. Is there a downside to this process? What kind of challenges are you facing with taking this waste and converting it into products for concrete?

Ross:  Yeah, I should really qualify and just say that it's not that we're converting plastic into concrete. Right? We're converting it into a material that becomes an additive in concrete and adds value. So it's actually a relatively small percentage that goes into a concrete product. So let's just say, what we all think of as a cinder block, right? That's a building block, it's technically called a CMU, concrete masonry units. We will only put about 3% to 8% of Resin8 into that product.

Ross:  So it's not like we're completely disrupting the concrete industry again, we're adding value. And the concrete industry is so massive. Concrete is actually the second largest commodity used after water. It's so, so huge. Another statistic that a I'll throw out there is if we were able to convert all plastic waste annually, that's about 380 million tons of plastic waste per year that gets produced. If in some sort of hypothetical world, we were able to convert all of that to Resin8, it would account for less than 3% of the material that gets used in concrete called aggregate. Less than 3%. So it's actually the concrete, the construction industry is the perfect place for this material, as long as it can add value. Right?

Beth:  So you talk a little bit about this idea of if there's an additive value with a circular economy and such. Can you tell us a little bit about what a circular economy is?

Ross:  I was afraid you're going to ask that question. So there are plenty of people that would do a better job of explaining what a circular economy is. But I think in a simple sense ism in a linear economy, we extract natural resources, right? We convert it into a product, we use the product and then we throw the product away. In a circular economy, those natural resources that get extracted, they stay in a circular loop and they get either converted so that they can go back into reuse in additional products, but they never leave that loop.

Ross:  So we basically, we see ourselves as a circular company, but we also have higher aspirations. The name of our company, CRDC actually stands for Center for Regenerative Design and Collaboration. So regenerative is actually kind of one step up from circularity. Our definition of regeneration is when the output is greater than the sum of all the inputs. When something is regenerative, it's not just keeping something in the recycling loop. It's actually keeping it in the recycling loop, but then adding additional value.

Beth:  And when you say adding additional value, do you mean purely capital or do you mean the value in the sense of you're improving something that maybe would've deteriorated quicker or doing something that's going to help the longevity in some capacity?

Ross:  Yeah. Good question. So here's a good example. We're working on a second version of our product, which actually absorbs and sequesters CO2. And so we're actually using plastic waste to almost as a filter to absorb and sequester CO2 forever. So that's something where you're taking the plastic and you are using that in a circular way, but you're actually adding value by pulling CO2 out of the atmosphere.

Beth:  So that would be helpful. So this is where I'm just generally trying to learn here a little bit. Is that a helpful balance for deforestation efforts? Where some of this plant life that is taking CO2 and converting back into oxygen and that kind of thing so that we can breathe, it's that not a substitute, I'm not saying that, but is that helping in a little bit of the off balance?

Ross:  Well, it's definitely not a substitute.

Beth:  Definitely not.

Ross:  At this point, it's all hands on deck. I mean, the carbon issue is worse than the plastic issue. The two are very, very closely connected. But no, we need every possible solution we can have to reduce carbon at this stage. And so there's a lot of technology that is working with direct air capture. So it's literally just taking carbon out of the air, capturing that, and then putting it deep into the earth where it can hopefully stay forever. So this is just a version of that. What we do is use our particle in a reactor that then connects to some sort of emission source.

Ross:  So let's just use a cement truck as an example. We would have our reactor connected to the tailpipe of the cement truck, would pull the CO2 from the truck. It would use that CO2 to create a calcium carbonate shell around our original Resin8 particle. And then that calcium carbonate particle then has that CO2 in it. We put that into ready mix concrete and it adds value, it adds workability, it increases strength, it accelerates curing, et cetera. So that's a really exciting technology. Right now, we've done sort of the technical proof of concept on that. And if we can commercialize that, that's going to be monstrous because not only will it to help address the plastic issue, but it'll help address the carbon issue as well.

Beth:  It's so interesting.

Ross:  It's pretty cool.

Beth:  Yeah, it is.

Megan:  I feel vindicated. [crosstalk 00:  23:  00]

Beth:  I'm sitting here, Megan's of course is just like, "See, I've been talking about this for a year now."

Megan:  It really is. And I'm biased. My family is in the industrial machinery and warehousing business. So I come from it from that angle a little bit too. I've blown concrete boogers out of my nose on a job site. So I'm also a little more personally attached than some folks might be.

Ross:  Definitely.

Megan:  What haven't we asked you about this work that maybe we should have? What don't we know enough to ask that you'd like to share with our audience?

Ross:  Well before I touch on that, so I think I didn't necessarily answer your question about what challenges we have. I clarified a little bit about how Resin8 is used, but the challenges that we face. I think there are a few. One of them is primarily around plastic recovery. That's the biggest issue. I mean, we have no problem getting plastic waste from the industrial community, from the manufacturing community. They create a lot of plastic waste and there's no problem getting it from them because they're now shifting their priorities and they're really focused on landfill diversion, incineration diversion, they're really focused on their ESG commitments. So that's not a problem, but the household is one of the biggest challenges I think there is.

Ross:  And here I am, two weeks ago I was at the Plastic Recycling Conference and I'm now at the World Petrochemical Conference. Everyone is talking about the same thing, which is how do you improve the recycling and recovery rates? Right now it's dismal. And we've just as a community, as a world, we really have not done a good job of taking responsibility for, hey, if I use this plastic water bottle, I need to make sure it goes into the right place so that it can stay in that recycling loop or ultimately get into a product like Resin8. And it's not just individuals and households that are to blame. It's the industry itself it's broken right now. And so I think that's really the biggest challenge because yes, we want to run a business, but more than anything, we want to solve this problem. And that's one of the biggest challenges to solving the problem.

Beth:  I think a lot of Laurentians, especially being from a university that is so in touch with nature, we're so close to the Adirondacks with people who like to go hiking. We have a really fantastic environmental studies and environmental science program and conservation biology. We have alums who are very passionate about the sustainability of the university, but also the sustainability effects that the university has on the world at this point, too. How can Laurentians support this type of work? How can we support what you're doing, but even beyond CRDC?

Ross:  I think what we're doing, it becomes a little bit challenging until we actually have a location that is close enough to St. Lawrence or close enough to anyone's particular community. And we're in the process right now of scaling globally and we will definitely be scaling considerably across the United States. So hopefully the Resin8 resonates and our recovery program, which we call the Bag that Builds will be available to everyone in the U.S. within the next few years.

Ross:  But I think from a broader perspective, I think it's important for people to educate themselves on plastics. In other words, understand what the difference is between a number one and a number seven. And understand whether their municipality can accept a particular material or can't accept a particular material. And then if they can't accept it, understand what alternative solutions there are. Really education is at the core of everything. And I think our program, our recovery program, the Bag that Builds is actually starting in the schools. So we have an education program associated with it. It's starting in the elementary schools and we figure if we can teach the younger generation to be more responsible, they're the ones that are going to solve this problem, because it's going to be second nature for them. Ultimately, I would just say, be as informed as possible about what you can do with your plastic waste and what options are available to you in your particular area.

Beth:  I was just reflecting while you were talking about how I'm a millennial, we kind of grew up with the idea of recycling. Like you recycle, but we never were told the very specific things about the differences between plastics and thinking about all the Nickelodeon cartoons in the nineties, they had a recycling episode to it or something. Right? So our generation definitely grew up with this idea that recycling was important, but we haven't really necessarily explored why and how, and those kind of things. So I think that your exact point makes a lot of sense that hopefully with continued education starting at a younger age, that'll be helpful.

Beth:  My final question for you, the pandemic had a lot of people at home and we started to see some really positive things, signs of the environment, improving in very small ways, things like, oh, wow, Venice has clearer water than it did because there's not a whole bunch of tourists there. And how much though, do you feel like the plastic industry, is it fair to say maybe it was worsened while people were home and maybe there was more takeout and people weren't recycling correctly? Or do you feel like there has been maybe a shift since the pandemic and how people are addressing plastic?

Ross:  Yeah, a hundred percent. COVID definitely impacted the plastic industry a lot. I don't necessarily want to say worsened it because I'm hopeful that it made people more aware that we need to do something about it. In other words, the pandemic made people more aware of the CO2 issue. Because suddenly the sky's cleared up when everyone stopped driving in their cars. So it raised awareness on one hand.

Ross:  But on the other hand, yes, you're a hundred percent correct. We used more plastic. There is a reason for plastic, and I don't want to come across as being a plastic advocate whatsoever. But at most of those reasons are for sanitary purposes. And once we started to become more aware of pathogens, everyone started to focus more on being more sanitary. Right? And so plastic actually helps us do that. Plastic packaging for food preserves that food and protects that food.

Ross:  So yes, the takeout containers, et cetera, that's definitely one thing. But we started to use more and more plastic for sanitary reasons. And that will continue. I mean, that the numbers demonstrate that plastic use will increase over the next 20 years pretty considerably. And that's are all for safety reasons. If we can reduce plastic, we will, if we can reuse plastic, we will, if we can recycle plastic, we will. But what becomes the biggest challenge is how to manage the waste and how to effectively make sure it doesn't end up in the environment.

Beth:  I think that makes a lot of sense. And it's also, it's of very positive call to mission. We all have to kind of play this part too when it comes to the plastic industry.

Megan:  Right?

Ross:  Yeah, no doubt.

Megan:  And the fact that the two don't have to be mutually exclusive.

Ross:  Yeah. I mean, one thing I'll say about CRDC is we're kind of agnostic as far as our partners. In other words, we work with nonprofits, people that are doing beach cleanups and river cleanups. We work with the United Nations. We work with Habitat For Humanity. I mean, we've already built 700 homes with Habitat For Humanity in Costa Rica. But we also, I'm here at the World Petrochemical Conference. We also work with the petrochemical companies. We work with the plastic producers. We work with the packaging producer. They are finally starting to realize they have to take responsibility for the end of life of their products. And so we'll work with the gamut. The environmentalists, the producers themselves, and then the construction companies. Again, CRDC stands for the Center for Regenerative Design and Collaboration. Collaboration is very important to us and we're kind of drawing all these different partners from all these different industries into a big collaboration together.

Beth:  It's just so interesting. We have a young alum named Mark Jannini who works at a startup called RTS. And I know that they're not necessarily working with the plastics industry, but they kind of are. But basically their whole point is that they act as middle man between large corporations like Google or Equinox and make sure that their waste doesn't end up in landfills. And so it's just really inspiring to see alums who are really taking an active part in saving our planet. A lot of people talk the talk, but it's fun to see people who are walking the walk as well.

Megan:  That's awesome. Well, I know we're coming up on our time here and we really do appreciate you taking the time to talk with us today. Before we close, is there anything else that you would like to share with our audience and our listeners?

Ross:  I think what I'd just like to say is thank you very much. I appreciate you listening. I appreciate your interest. And hopefully your interest is not just into St. Lawrence alums but in this environmental mission that we all really need to be on. Because as I said, it's all hands on deck at this point, we really don't have a lot of time to waste. And so the more people can be informed, the more people can be impassioned and engaged in this effort, the better off we'll be. So thank you all.

Beth:  Thank you so much, Ross. I look forward to following up in various different ways to hear all about the good work in the future that your company's doing.

Ross:  Well, thank you all. It was my pleasure.

Megan:  Thank you so much.

[Music Plays]

Beth:  Well, there you have it. Another amazing interview with just another amazing Laurentian. Megan, your passion for this subject really came out. And I know that you've had such a wonderful interaction before with Ross, with SLU Connects, one of the programs that you help to organize and run. And it was obvious that we found this really fascinating as well. What was something that you thought was a really great takeaway from today's conversation?

Megan:  Yeah. One of the things that amazes me every time I talk to Ross is how interesting concrete is. It's something that we take for granted. We are surrounded by it in our homes. We drive on it, we walk all over it. The second most consumed product after water.

Beth:  Right?

Megan:  Never would've thought. And the fact that we have this company that's taking another hugely consumed product, plastic, and transforming it into an ingredient that not only makes the concrete better, but also helps take care of this problem of plastic waste that is in our water systems, is filling up our landfills. I just love to see that circle of innovation. And I'm excited to see what that's going to look like in five, 10, 15 years.

Beth:  Absolutely. What I love the most about Ross's story is I think a lot of people, when they graduate, they think they have to have this linear path of what their career is going to be. I love that he's really had almost like this liberal arts approach to his career and his path. He started in entertainment with this very performative background and then was able to translate that into something that he feels very passionately about with saving our earth. And I think a lot of Laurentians can really speak to to the sustainability portion of his work and what his organization is doing. So another just really great Laurentian story this month.

Megan:  Absolutely. Well, thank you everyone for joining us. And we look forward to seeing you next episode.

[Theme Music Plays]

Beth:  Scarlet & Brown Stories is edited and produced by Amanda Brewer, Megan Fry Dozier, Dennis Morreale, Beth Dixon and Amelia Jantzi.

Amelia:  Our music was written by Christopher Watts, inspired by Eugene Wright, class of '49.

Beth:  Subscribe to Scarlet & Brown Stories on Apple Podcasts, Spotify and wherever you listen to podcasts.

Amelia:  If you have a story you'd like to submit to us, you can email us at connect@stlawu.edu.

[Music Ends]

[Theme Music Plays]

Beth:      Hello everyone, and welcome back to Scarlet & Brown Stories. I am your host, Beth Dixon. And this month I am so happy to be joined with Dennis Morreale. I'm so excited. Denny, how are you doing today?

Denny:      I'm doing great. Thank you, Beth. I'm super excited to be back and excited to be podcasting with you. We've worked together a long time and now both getting on the show.

Beth:      I know this is so exciting, we've been a part of this podcast team for a little while, but before that we've been working together in this capacity for about what seven years at this point. And previous to that we'd worked together reunions when I was a student worker and you were in charge of the student worker. So nice long history.

Denny:    Go way back stories that we'll save for another episode.

Beth:    Yes. [Laughter].

Denny:    So we'll set that aside for today. Yeah. We've got a very exciting guest today. Someone that I've also been working with for a long time.

Beth:    Absolutely. So here is our interview with Lizzie Edwards class of 2012.

[Music Plays]

Beth:    We're so excited to be chatting with one of our honestly like best volunteers that we have of our Young Alum League. And she's just been super involved with St. Lawrence since she graduated. She has a wonderful career in education. She's an all-star runner. She's got all these wonderful attributes going for her, and we're excited to hear a little bit more about her Scarlet and Brown Story. So Denny, why don't you tell us a little bit more about Lizzie before we bring on Lizzie Edwards?

Denny:    Yeah. Thank you, Beth. I was reflecting on this beforehand, because I've been working with Lizzie for a number of years now in the Young Alumni League Program. And the way that I think about it is this, we think a lot about the strength of our world renowned alumni network and what makes a network strong. And I was thinking of it, the kind of metaphor of like, "What makes steel strong? What does steel consist of?" Steel is almost entirely just iron. And then you throw in like a little bit of carbon or manganese or something like that. And that little bit changes the whole structure and it makes it much, much stronger than the iron, the iron's pretty strong on its own, but you throw that in and you get steel something vastly stronger. And Lizzie really is sort of an example of the carbon atoms in our network, right?

Beth:    Yeah.

Denny:    It would be strong on its own, but throw them in. And the whole kind of lattice work structure just becomes so much stronger than it would be otherwise. So, I'm not a chemist-

Beth:    You could for me.

Denny:    Or a blacksmith for that matter so let's not take the metaphor too far, but genuinely Lizzie is one of the most important volunteers I've worked with in the 10 years I've been running the Young Alumni Program. So I'm delighted to have her on and welcome to the show.

Lizzie:    Denny, thank you so much. What an introduction, your enthusiasm and leadership has made being part of the Young Alumni network so enjoyable and also so accessible. You've made it a competition. You've made it engaging and you've made it dynamic truly.

Denny:    Oh, well. Thank you.

Beth:    I think that's a really great place to start actually, because for our listeners who don't know what the Young Alumni League is, it's a really interesting and fascinating way to get involved as a young alum. And it's something that Denny has actually been able to present on across the nation at different conferences and had colleagues at different institutions pick his brain about. So why don't the two of you kind of tell us a little bit about what the Young Alumni League is, maybe Lizzie, why don't you start from what it is from a volunteer's standpoint?

Lizzie:    Absolutely. So Denny gathers people who are 10 years or less out from their undergrad experience and he creates basically a fantasy football draft wherein you as a volunteer, get to try to find people from your affinity groups. So maybe a sport that you did on campus, a living community that you were a part of, a sorority or fraternity that you were a part of or any other like study abroad group, an affinity group. And within that context, you try to gather your team. And just like in sports, you want to try to have some people who have consistently given over the years and you reach out to them and see if they'd be willing to continue to give. But Denny also incentivizes getting people involved in attending alumni events or donating who maybe haven't done so yet. And for them, maybe it's a matter of hearing from someone who reminds them of how positive their college experience was.

Lizzie:    And maybe they've started to take on other ventures and it's not at the forefront of their mind, but a call or a text from someone who is a part of that experience triggers in them that loyalty, where they want to get involved. He also incentivizes it, not just being financial involvement and he doesn't put monetary goals at the forefront of the experience. He wants to see people attending alumni events, mentoring people in their careers and getting involved in other ways. And because of the way he structured it creates a network that feels like it's based on people giving where they feel their strengths are instead of giving where it maybe feels more forced for them.

Beth:    I think that's such a succinct way to describe it. Denny, do you have any additional thoughts here?

Denny:    I would just say it was lovely to hear you describe it that way from your perspective. I have presented on it in a number of places, but to you hear someone who's been as involved as you have talk about it like that and kind of seize on some of the real key points of it just really kind of warms my heart. Yeah. The program, it started out as a way to increase involvement of our youngest alums before I was here. It was really kind of only focused on giving and through the things I was seeing, what I was hearing from volunteers before the kind of remodel where we turned into the fantasy football method that you can't just isolate things down to just giving because everyone's a whole person. And so the more someone is engaged in any one category, the more they're going to just be engaged across the board.

Denny:    And that's what we want to do and to think about it kind of holistically. And to that extent it has worked out well, the other way that it's worked out well, the numbers sort of have been fabulous in terms of how engaged those classes have been that have been involved in the program. But it's just for me personally, so much fun to be a part of and to sort of tell the stories from week to week when we're in season and to track the progress of the different classes and the different competitors. And I never could have guessed before I started how fiercely competitive it would get. Genuinely the last, however many years, if you are ranked anywhere in the top 40, I know because I'm hearing from you all the time that you're really working hard here.

Denny:    You're really actively engaged in it and reaching out to people and making a difference. And kind of a key thing is that one person is crowned Young Alumni League champion at the end of each year. And that person I can tell you really earns it. It is so competitive that I am always sort of blown away and deeply humbled by the efforts made by that person. And we have a former champion in our presence on the conversation here today. And in an addition to that, someone who has been, so she was a league champion, but in many other years, she has been a top five finisher and makes the champion sweat and makes them work harder than they would if they hadn't. If Lizzie hadn't been there, I can say that for sure.

Beth:    Lizzie, do you take it very competitively as well? Like do you feel the competitive spirit when you're participating in the Young Alum League?

Lizzie:    Absolutely. Lindsay Malcolm and I were teammates at St. Lawrence, but we've battled it out a couple years.

Denny:    Yeah, No, I hear from, Lindsay's a good friend of mine. Like she'll call me or text me like in the closing weeks. And it's like, "I'm not feeling confident about my score." She'll be in first or something. And she's like, "Lizzie's just been, she's gained like 120 points last week. I'm really not comfortable with this." So you're bringing out the best in people.

Lizzie:    Well, I think you also hit the nail on the head with bringing out what makes St. Lawrence alums St. Lawrence alums. We're all competitive fiercely, but in this it's friendly kind of way. That's part of the culture on campus. And it's something that we can carry through to those years, right after graduation.

Beth:    Absolutely. And I like too, that to both of your points before that this is really just about engagement at the end of the day. And what I love is the amount of people that I, when I used to participate in the league, that would be like, "Beth, I want to help get you some points. What can I do?" And I'd be like, "Write a class note," and they're like, "I bought it." And then all of a sudden, the class of 2010 had like a whole bunch of notes and that kind of thing, which is really fun. And it's just a great way to connect with people who maybe you're not talking to you all the time, but you still think about from time to time. It's a great little touch point. Lizzie, it's important to note that this year is your 10th reunion, essentially, as you reflect back on 10 years of being a young alum, what have you learned about either the St. Lawrence network or yourself, or a combination thereof that you would love to give that advice to a graduating senior this year?

Lizzie:    Put yourself out there. There've been so many situations where I've been in a major city in a different part of the US, not anywhere near Canton. And I've seen someone with a St. Lawrence T-shirt and don't be afraid to go up and talk to them, ask them about their experience. See what kind of cool opportunity, whether it's social or professional could come out of that. And also just be open to new experiences. I think that the world we live in right now is different from the world people were graduating into a generation ago. I haven't been afraid to move geographic location, but I felt ties to my past throughout. So I got to a new job at the beginning of the pandemic last year in Telluride, Colorado. And someone showed up at my school substitute teacher to cover a maternity leave. And it turned out it was Colin Sullivan, St. Lawrence class of 2002.

Denny:    Oh wow.

Lizzie:    Who is the executive director of the Telluride Theater here, where I live, but he's really deeply ingrained in my school community. His kid goes Montessori School in the same building. And he had a number of the same professors as me, like some of my absolute favorite professors were his favorite professors too. So we engaged in this dialogue. And even though we graduated 10 years apart, we had both done the London semester abroad. And we even had like British professors in common and it was just insane. So I feel really grateful that I've had those kind of crazy St. Lawrence moments at different points in these 10 years since graduating.

Denny:    That's super for interesting. So as you sort of put yourself in the shoes of you as a graduating senior, when you look at everything that sort of happened in between, has it all been exactly according to plan or where have there been the kind of interesting twists?

Lizzie:    Absolutely not. What life has had many twists and turns that 2012 me would never have predicted, but the journey has led me to somewhere where I feel really happy. I love what I do career wise. I love the community I've landed in. It's so vibrant, athletically, artistically, intellectually. I'm never bored. There are always stimulating events going on. And with modern technology, I'm still connected to my friends back in Upstate New York or my friends who live in other places I've gone to along the way. I never would've predicted using my minor in European studies from St. Lawrence, but now I'm teaching history and I was an English major. And I thought I would just teach English. But now my course load is half English, half history. And I'm calling upon some of those experiences that I had earning credits abroad for that minor, and actually using them in my teaching, showing kids pictures of my travels and trying to get them engaged in that way.

Lizzie:    So I think overall it's important to have a vision for what your goals are in life, but to balance that with the practice of a little bit of healthy spontaneity and following your gut, I never thought about living in Colorado before, but someone reached out to me with an opportunity at the beginning of the pandemic and I decided to go for it. And I interviewed all over Zoom. Having never been here before. And I secured housing, having never been here before, and I've been really happy. So I think it's important to be brave and to make changes. When you feel it in your heart, that's going to be good for you.

Beth:    I think that's really important to hear. So often we are told from the time that we're little, "What are you going to do when you grow up?" And it's like, I graduated college and I didn't know what I wanted to do. And I grew up, and I was grown up at that point. I had to know. And so taking those risks are super important. And I think that oftentimes when we have people like yourself who are in education, we think of education as a very like stable career. Like you do something and there's probably not that much risk in it, but there is, there's a lot of ways that you can make it exciting and different. And for yourself. And we have a lot of Laurentians who go out into the education world, whether they're teaching abroad, they're teaching English in different countries, or if they enter like a traditional K-12 system, whether it's public or private, we have people who are mentors and coaches.

Beth:    

We have people in higher education, education in itself like you said, has so many opportunities to keep your mind and your body really active in so many ways. I know that you were an athlete. Have you been able to translate any of your experiences of running at St. Lawrence into your teachings in any way? Have you been a coach? Have you done anything like that we could explore a little bit today?

Lizzie:    Yeah. So I was a cross country and track coach for seven years prior to moving here.

Beth:    Fantastic.

Lizzie:    Which is incredible and I loved it so much. I have now transitioned to actually being a mountain biking and skiing coach.

Denny:    No way. That's Amazing.

Beth:    Wow. The most Colorado thing I've ever heard.

Lizzie:    So yeah, I've taken all these classes. I'm going to get Avalanche Safety Level One certified in two weekends, I'm taking a group of kids to do it. And in chaperoning that trip, I'm getting certified as well. I just got back from a back country, hut ski trip with kids. We had 20 middle schoolers. So my job right now is actually very varied. It's seventh to 12th grade humanities. So I teach a lot of different age groups.

Denny:    Oh wow.

Lizzie:    But I took seven eighth graders into the back country and we learned avalanche safety education. And last spring, I did a rafting trip down the Green River in Utah. And we looked at the history of that region, sociologically as well as environmentally. And then I've also taken kids backpacking, two backpacking to trips, to Bears Ears National Monument, where we delivered place based history, English and art curriculum. So I've had to be in good shape for all of these trips. And I credit my St. Lawrence Cross country and track time with helping me to create a regimen. So it's possible to do that.

Denny:    I think it's sort of fast to best point. This is not what you think of when you think of the track of being a teacher. You do think of it as this more kind of static existence. And yeah. The amount of travel alone that you do is kind of amazing and the exciting forms that it takes. So you have a trip coming up in March, which it will be right around the time that this is landing. Do you want to tell us more about that one?

Lizzie:    Absolutely. So the South trip is a biennial Civil rights experiential education trip. And we fly from Colorado where I'm based to Atlanta and we tour around the Southern United States. It usually runs for seventh and eighth graders in January, but we have had to reschedule twice due to COVID related concerns. We now have the green light to go ahead right now, this March with the current eighth and ninth graders. So we've lost a whole school year in the planning of this and rebooked museums. We've rebooked flights, hotels, but everyone's pivoting right now. It's what we're doing. And the focus of this trip is to explore social justice and civil rights in America from the beginning of our country's history to the current day.

Lizzie:    So we will be traveling with a cohort of about 20 middle schoolers and early high schoolers and four faculty members. And we'll visit these museums, memorials and monuments in Atlanta, Montgomery, Selma, and Birmingham. So we'll be delivering curriculum while we're traveling. Then we'll come back to school and we'll create what we call a POL or presentation of learning. And the students who will be able to share their newly acquired knowledge with the entire school community. This is a model we repeat three or four times a year for our kids.

Denny:    That's amazing.

Lizzie:    Yeah. Depending.

Beth:    Experiential education is just so important. I think that when we think of school or at least when I think of it, I often think about, textbooks and homework and sitting there in class. And that was very much to the core of my education growing up. And then I got to go to college and it was a little different you did a lot of the reading at home and then, classes were just discussion based or presentations or you went off at and learn something. And then you brought it back for everybody else to learn about it too. And I love everything that you've said today so far, whether it's these trips that you're taking, you're helping to inform people on diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging, not even theories, just practices you're teaching in such a liberal arts kind of way.

Beth:    The fact that you have both, like humanities in a general is a very liberal arts' concept. You have English and history that you're teaching together, which is important. And then combining that with this experience of whether it be coaching or these outdoor trips and that kind of thing, there's so much that you can learn that are life skills or personal skills from all of different kinds of things. And so I love that your approach in the career that you've chosen has been really focused on helping students be better global citizens. In addition to being better versions of themselves too, like learning what some of their strengths and weaknesses are maybe learning, "Oh, I actually really like hiking and I never gone before," or, "This was a big risk for me to go rafting. I've never done that. I don't know if I'll do it again, but I can say that I've done it."

Beth:    And I don't know if, when I reflect back, if I had too many of those experiences in K-12 that I could say, so hearing that there are students out there that are going to be able to have those experiences in their formative years, it's really important to hear.

Lizzie:    Thank you. I really feel that I've grown in my teaching practice. And I also don't know that I necessarily had these types of experiences at a young age. I did have them in college. I remember doing a class with Antalya singer, where we were visiting local farmers, and it was environmental studies and also English and-

Beth:    Very cool, yeah.

Lizzie:    So I had those kind of experiences at St. Lawrence and certainly abroad. We would go to a museum and discover things in a hands on way. I really think that students remember things when they directly have experiences, instead of indirectly acquiring the information through a text book or seventh graders, can't listen to a three hour lecture. They're not going to remember anything, right?.

Beth:    Right.

Lizzie:    So I feel really supported in my community that I can be creative with my lesson plans. And not only am I allowed to do that, I'm encouraged to do that. And it's not just when we're traveling, when we're at school, we can do this too. One of my favorite memory so far of teaching here is I had my ninth grade history students make a map of world war I battles using humans to represent geographic locations. And then they tied themselves together with yarn to show the encounters or the battles between the locations.

Beth:    Oh, that's so cool.

Lizzie:    And because I work at a multi-age school, the younger kids came out for their break. And like second and third graders were just watching with big eyes and they look up to the older kids, but they also like to see the older kids having fun. And I had some younger kids come up and say, "Oh, when I'm older and I'm in your class, well, we get to do this?" So that's exciting to me when you're, you're doing something and kids, aren't just saying, "Oh, when am I done? Or why do I have to do this?" But they're excited about it.

Beth:    When they're saying, "When do I get to do this?"

Lizzie:    Yeah. Right, right.

Beth:    That's a real test of it. I remember when I was in fifth grade, we were learning about the Revolutionary War and my teacher taxed us. So we had a paper tax. So you had to pay a penny every single time you had to turn into like your homework. Or if you had to borrow a piece of paper, you had to pay a penny for every suite that you had in your lunch. You had a sugar tax. And so there was like a 5 cent kind of thing. And she gave us all the money. It's not like we had to bring money from home to do this. I remember just that practical experience. And we had fun with it. One day, my dad wrote an email to my teacher and said, "My queen, I regret to inform you that you have a trader amongst your midst, like this whole thing.

Beth:    And he had packed a whole bunch of sweets in my lunch panel and I hadn't known it and of course he had all the nickels and everything in there, but like, they made it like this huge theatrical deal. And it was like, they put me on trial and the class, it was so silly, but that kind of thing, really from here on out, I'm like, "I could tell you all the different kinds of taxes before the Revolutionary War." Because in fifth grade I got taxed. And like that experiential education took me out of the textbook and like made me have a lived experience. So the things that you're doing and your students have the creativity to do, I'm sure are making a huge difference in how they will retain information moving forward.

Denny:    So you had mentioned that teaching history is new for you because you were an English major. And so you've just been teaching history for the last two years. Is that right?

Lizzie:    That's right.

Denny:    And had you taken history in college or was this sort of a newly acquired skillset?

Lizzie:    A little bit through that European studies minor. I had some education in history, but a lot of it has been, I love to read obviously, I pursued an English major at St. Lawrence because I love to read. So a lot of self-taught work in the last two years as well, which has been good for me. I'm never bored. I'm always learning too. And information that's new to me is exciting to me. And hopefully my students can see that I'm discovering along with them.

Denny:    And I assume you didn't take Avalanche safety in at St. Lawrence either. Right?

Lizzie:    Never on the East Coast. Never.

Denny:    Yeah. So one of the things I'm just really admiring hearing you talk about your experience here is the number of places it's been like, you didn't leave with some certificate saying you knew how to do this stuff. And it's so easy. I think when you do come from a liberal arts background to sort of sell yourself short in terms of what you can do, just thinking again about the 2012 version of yourself, that looking ahead, there's so many things that you can do because that's what the liberal arts sort of does. Is it primes you to be able to pick these things up as you go?

Lizzie:    Yeah. It fosters intellectual curiosity, I think, which is a hugely undervalued skill. That desire to be a lifelong learner, as opposed to having a fixed mindset. I'm an expert in this and this is what I do. It's more of a lifestyle I'm trying to adopt where I'm constantly learning new things. So I'm never bored. My brain's always stimulated. Athletically, I'm always stimulated and it just makes life more exciting.

Denny:    Yeah. I couldn't agree more. Absolutely.

Beth:    As you look forward to other goals in your career, what are some of those goals that you have?

Lizzie:    I think for me, I'm still growing in my practice. So every day I'm learning something new. How do I make kids feel safe to express themselves in the classroom? How do I remind them that a lot of the time in English, there's no wrong answer. Can you back up your perspective with evidence or feelings? Can you articulate yourself? So I'm still, I'm always learning new ways to go about achieving a lesson that feels good. And in any given day within a lesson, you might feel like you had stronger or weaker points within a day, you might feel like certain classes went better or worse than you thought they would. So I think at the end of the day, I want to feel like I'm always growing as a teacher and I aspire to also be a writer-

Denny:    Yeah. That's great.

Lizzie:    ... as well. So that's kind of a passion project that I want to pursue on the side.

Beth:    What kind of writing would you be interested in pursuing or are you pursuing?

Lizzie:    Short stories in poetry? Mostly I don't ...

Denny:    Oh, that's fabulous. Yeah.

Beth:    I can't wait to see your published work someday. We'll come back to this podcast and say, "Hey, in February, 2022, she was talking about this being a passion of her. So let's look it up."

Denny:    So circling back a little bit, some of the things we were talking about earlier on in terms of staying engaged and volunteering and those kinds of things, Beth and I were kind of having a debate as we were prepping for this podcast a little bit, because I was saying again, I've been working with the Young Alumni classes for, I think this is my 10th year working with Young Alumni. And I was saying 2012 is there's something really special about that class? And then Beth is like, "Well, 2010 through 2012."

Beth:    I started off by saying 2012 learned from 2010.

Lizzie:    Of course.

Beth:    I said that kind of tongue and cheek, to be honest with you. But then we started talking about those three classes.

Denny:    There really is something to it. If you had asked me candidly, without trying to flatter anyone on this very podcast. I would've said independently that there is something definitely unique about the triplet of classes of 2010 through 2012. Of course, all of our classes are exceptional in their own ways. But from all the ways that from our office standpoint of engagement event, attendance, annual fund support, volunteering for admissions, career services that triple of classes really is exceptional. I was curious to get your theory about this. Was there something in the water at the time was there, because there's a lot of reason to think that people graduating at that particular time period might not be so connected to their school just in terms of the world they were walking out into, but that's one of the strongest three class pairs that we have anywhere in our lineup.

Lizzie:    I'm not sure that I can answer this with certainty, but I can speculate based on anecdotal experiences. So I think that we were pretty harmonious as a cohort while at SLU. And I think that SLU provided ample opportunities for us to connect with people outside of our classes. So those intentional living communities, study abroad, extracurricular activities and events, the FYP idea of living with people you're taking a first year class with, I think all of those things contributed to me feeling like I had a lot of different affinity groups and we all supported each other. And you could be thespian and an athlete. And you could be someone studying two seemingly disparate academic areas and having friendships in both those areas. It wasn't uncommon for me to feel like there were multiple opportunities for what I could do with my free time in terms of connections I had with people in different facets of my campus life.

Lizzie:    I never felt tied to one identity or friend group while I was at St. Lawrence. So I think that engendered a sense of loyalty to a vast network of people. And I also think that yes, we went through a lot of global events that were challenging. We also came of age as technology was coming of age, right?

Denny:    Mm-hmm (affirmative). Oh, yeah.

Lizzie:    So we knew what it was like to not be always connected to each other and to have to make the effort to have those face to face conversations. But we also had the ease of communication once we gone on campus, a lot of us had those older cell phones. So we had some level of technology.

Denny:    Yeah.

Lizzie:    Yeah. Can you press three times for the C.

Beth:    [crosstalk 00:29:27]. And then you had to press it another three. Yeah.

Lizzie:    Yeah. So I think we were like right on the precipice of all of that and social media, Facebook was just becoming big. So we had this interconnectivity, but I think we were also forced to be social with each other in a way that maybe is less rampant now with more technology, we were right in that bubble.

Denny:    Yeah. I think there's definitely something to that you guys really were sort of in an interesting spot as far as that goes. I think of myself as sort of being, I've graduated in 2007 as being sort of millennial, but I really am kind of like really straddling the Gen X millennial line there, but you guys are like squarely millennial. And in that space of having yeah, had those kind of dual exists and seen both sides of things. That's not just, I mean, there's some very strong classes coming up, but there was something really kind of uniquely special about those three. I feel like a few interesting things I can say that I've observed having worked with those classes for my whole career at this point, I think of each class as sort of like an organism, it sort of has its own personality a little bit. Beth, 2010 is like the most cutthroat class I've worked with.

Beth:    Yes. We're very cutthroat.

Denny:    Like the most competitive. This is maybe I see this more because of their running, the Young Alumni League. But 2010 is the most overtly competitive class across the board that I work with. And it's really like, not even close. And by contrast 2012, if I could say one thing about 2012, it's that you guys just love each other. Like it is wild. You can name, drop anyone in the class to anyone else in the class and you'll just hear, "Oh, I love him." Well, it'll be like, it's remarkable. Like I love a lot of people from my class too. I felt like I knew everybody as I was graduating and now I look at the spreadsheet of all the people in my class, 2007 and it's like, "Wow, I actually there's a lot of people in here. I don't know." But I feel like it's uncanny whenever I'm meeting with people from 2012, how they just know everyone and they just love everyone. It is. I've never seen anything like it.

Lizzie:    It's so accurate. I really feel connect to all of them.

Denny:    Yeah.

Lizzie:    And even people who are really different personality wise, they somehow just shout.

Denny:    Yeah. I know it doesn't matter. Like you could have been like a star on the hockey team or you could be like in Java and you're or like, "Oh, that guy's great." It's just across the board.

Lizzie:    Shout out to all my 2012 people. I miss you.

Beth:    Well, hopefully we'll all be together for reunion some year. Before we end our chat with you today Lizzie, I wanted to just see, you've been involved with St. Lawrence for a while. We've asked a few of our guests this question, but if you had a million dollars to give to St. Lawrence, where would you invest in St. Lawrence?

Lizzie:    Ooh, that's challenging. I feel a connection to so many aspects of my experience there, but I'd have to say what was formative for me would be study abroad and the cross country and track program. I think through both those experiences, I learnedit was okay to fail and bounce back. And I had a community supporting me and those communities still support me today. Like if I do a race now almost 10 years out, I know that I'm going to get positive feedback from teammates and former coaches. Like, that's just incredible. That doesn't happen with every school.

Beth:    It's so true. I was in the Laurentian Singers and it's the same thing. If I sing some place, then other people, "Oh, I love that music," or, "Great job. I know that you did well. I didn't listen, but I'm sure that it was great." You get that kind of support. And I agree.

Lizzie:    I was in DC with kids a couple years ago and I met up with two people from my global Francophones Program group.

Denny:    Oh wow.

Beth:    That's great fun.

Lizzie:    Who are living in DC now? And I hit them up last minute. I was like, "I'm coming to town tomorrow with a bunch of teenagers. I'm going to have an hour off, want to get together." And they were like, "Yes," they were there.

Beth:    I love when you can make those kind of connections.

Lizzie:    Yeah. Ethan Bishop and Emma Renz.

Denny:    Oh. Yeah.

Beth:    Oh, both great.

Lizzie:    Yeah.

Beth:    Well Lizzie, thank you so much for the time that you have given us today. And thank you for the time that you do to invest in your students, both in and out of the classroom. We are so excited to have you for one last year in the Young Alum League. And we're hoping we're polling for you to bring home that gold once again, to really solidify yourself as like the go to champion of the Young Alum.

Lizzie:    I'll be in the running for sure.

Beth:    Absolutely. We have no doubts. We have no doubts.

Lizzie:    Thank you so much for having me. This has been a lot of fun.

Beth:    Wonderful.

Denny:    It's an honor. Thank you.

Beth:    It's been great. Thank you so much.

[Music Plays]

Denny:    There you have it folks. Lizzie Edwards, class of 2012, she is one of the best, best of the best. And I have a feeling we may not be here in the last from her on this show if I have anything to say about it. So stay tuned.

Beth:    Absolutely. You know what I love, and I know you might have been able to hear a little bit of like the school sounds and such in the background, but this is like how committed she is both as a teacher and as a Laurentian that she wanted to jump right in with this kind of school environment and like bring us into that environment while she was talking about it. I really like that actually.

Denny:    Yeah, it's great to really feel present. Even though we literally aren't, but to feel really present with a guest like her.

[Theme Music Plays]

Beth:    It was such a wonderful conversation. I hope that you all enjoyed it and be sure to tune in for our next edition. So have a good day and we'll see you. Next month.

Beth:    Scarlet & Brown Stories is edited and produced by Amanda Brewer, Megan Fry Dozier, Dennis Morreale, Beth Dixon and Amelia Jantzi.

Amelia:    Our music was written by Christopher Watts inspired by Eugene Wright, class of '49.

Beth:    Subscribe to Scarlet & Brown Stories on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and wherever you listen to podcasts.

Amelia:    If you have a story you'd like to submit to us, you can email us at connect@stlawu.edu.

[Music Fades]

[Theme Music Plays]

Amelia:  Welcome back everyone to another episode of Scarlet & Brown Stories. This is Amelia Jantzi, your co-host with my co-host, Beth Dixon. Welcome back, Beth.

Beth:  Thank you so much. So good to be back. I had such a good time listening to last month's podcast with Dennis Morreale filling in, but also hearing about eSports from Josh and Kyle. It was such a great episode, but I'm excited to be back in the cohost seat this month.

Amelia:  I'm excited to have you, and I'm so excited to introduce our guest to our listeners in a few minutes, but Beth, can you give us a little bit of a preview?

Beth:  Of course, we're going to be talking with beloved University Chaplain, Shaun Whitehead. Shaun has been with the university for nearly 20 years, which is insane to think about. She joined in 2003. I met her my first semester on campus as a first year student in 2006. Primarily worked a lot with her through Laurentian Singers and singing, did some work with her with gospel and with the Freedom Singers. She came on tour with us. So I have a really wonderful, reflective relationship with her. And she really is a defined moment with so much of my time, but I know that a lot of people feel the same way about her. So I'm excited to hear her thoughts about what the Laurentian student experience is right now in the middle of the pandemic, how we can all still come together as a community and the role of spirituality in the Laurentian history and traditions.

Amelia:  So without further ado, let's jump into it.

[Music Plays]

Beth:  Shaun, welcome on in, how are you doing today and what is it like in the beginning of the semester to be back on campus with the students?

Shaun:  Well, greetings of peace and what a blessing it is to see both of you all. I know that this is an audio, but I see you in my spirit. Trust me. I see you in that way. It is a gift though we are here during the pandemic, things have changed. And so the coming back to campus has been slow for me in that some things happen remotely and then we are easing back into the office. And so even some of the things that happened right at the beginning of the semester have been postponed. Our MLK Service and those events have been moved to February, which works very well for us.

Shaun:  It is in Black History Month, but think about it. I mean, we are accustomed to beginning the spring semester right off the bat with the MLK Service, which usually has a wonderful missive or wonderful reflection from our president and some good singing. And so here we are in the pandemic and we are masked and we are distancing. And so we're just trying to be as whole as we can. And so that has brought challenges, but at the same time, the gathering as Laurentians is the gift, truly.

Amelia:  Sure.

Beth:  I think the way that you said that you feel us and you see us in spirit, I think that, that's maybe not necessarily in those terms for everybody, but I definitely feel like that's the kind of thing that we all feel during this time of COVID where I am with you in spirit, or I see you, I feel you, but I'm not there physically with you. Have you seen a lot of that talk amongst students or the students that you've interacted with?

Shaun:  I think that faculty, staff, and students, and just the broader community, we've had to really plum the depths of our being, haven't we? To connect with one another, to find one another, and we've gotten quite creative. The ways, in which, especially in 2020, in early 2021, the ways in which we were clamoring to, how do we gather? And so the drive by birthday parties, the Zoom birthday parties and gender reveals and all of those things. It's very interesting, the ways in which we've tapped into gifts that we didn't know we had. And thank goodness, thank heavens, thank the universe for technology.

Beth:  Sure.

Shaun:  Because that has been very much a key connection for us, but I would also say that we have had to really tap into an ultimate truth and that is interdependence, interconnectedness, what Thich Nhat Hanh, who just passed away recently, a Zen Buddhist Master, who would say, interbeing, is what he would call it. And so the thing is we are interconnected. We need one another. So this way of being raised with this individualistic sense, it turns out that I need you. It turns out that I need you and we need one another to even know the essence of who we are.

Amelia:  I'm so glad that you bring that up. In my own life, I've seen how much more intentional I've become about my relationships, whether they're near or far, because so often it didn't matter if they were in town or if they were halfway across the country, I was going to connect with them in the same way. And it's taught me to be more intentional with those relationships. Something that I hope I keep, even as the life we know slowly, potentially, hopefully drifts back to normal, but are there ways in which you see that connection to each other, that importance of relationship, ways that you see and hope a more of a focus on that becomes more obvious or important or more a part of our daily life here on campus?

Shaun:  Absolutely. I hope that first of all, we accept it as an ultimate truth. So if we can just start there by accepting that it is a fact, it is a truth that we need one another, that you will find, it is said through Vuntu, you'll hear it within South African traditions. And I am because we are. That if we can accept that and then ways, the practical and physical and tactile ways that we connect with each other, we will find those things. But until we accept that we are of one another, that the essence, I need your essence, you need mine. I think Martin Luther King said it best, "We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality. Tied into a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly affects all indirectly." I simply cannot be what I ought to be until you are what you ought to be. We are interdependent. So if we can accept the truth of that, then I think all of our programming, which is wonderful here on this campus and the continues to evolve, then all of our divisions, we will flow from that truth.

Beth:  I think what's so interesting about all of this is... I like that we jumped right into this. We didn't even ask any background. Hey, Shaun, what made you choose? We got right into the meat and the boat of the conversation.

Shaun:  Yeah.

Beth:  What I think is so powerful about that is, that is what I love about you, Shaun. You are somebody who can look at something from so many different perspectives and you are that inter-connective energy. You're a representation of that on our campus. Whether it's because of the position that you hold or because of the lessons that you teach and the things that you say. So what I think is so interesting about this, we talked a little bit about, unfortunately, some of the things that we're accustomed to, like the MLK Service needed to be postponed, but we were able to have our hundredth annual candlelight service a month and a half ago.

Shaun:  Yes, indeed.

Beth:  And so this is a time of flux in some way-

Shaun:  Yes, it is.

Beth:  ... where sometimes we're able to really gather in the ways that we're used to and accustomed to this tradition, this coming together portion, but we're still trying to figure out what is the best way to do that. How has that impacted your ability to... And I'm going to say serve the Laurentian Community because when I think of your position, I think of it as, honestly, the largest service position we have on our campus.

Shaun:  First of all, like you said, this flux that we are in, having the notion of grief right in the forefront. I mean, because like you said, in December, what a gift it was. The 100th Candlelight Service, it was pretty amazing. It was online and in person. We had a number of protocols in place and not knowing that the Omnicron virus variants was on its way that would just change things, literally within a month's time. But so we are at that peculiar intersection between grief and gratitude, how wonderful. So there's this gratitude and the thing is with that, there's the, okay, we're on our way. And then within a month, things are shut down again, or people we're not able to go home and be with family during the various ways that we celebrate, observe the holiday. And so acknowledging the loss that we have experienced and that we continue to experience. The loss of people in our lives.

Shaun:  I mean, we are in a global public health crisis. And so we've lost a number of traditions, the ways in which our commencements have been observed, everything that we do from birthings to dying to all of our celebrations. Now we have to think about and be sure to be masked, or if it's going to happen at all. So naming that people are deeply grieving. And a lot of my work has centered around grief since I became University Chaplain. It was very interesting, the ways in which, well, first of all, everyone knows we lost our beloved university chaplain. She was chaplain here for 19 years, Reverend Kathleen Buckley. She had given her notice for retirement and then was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer. And so I had hoped she would be here for me as I had become university chaplain, that she's right here and I can pull from her wisdom.

Shaun:  And so she passed away. So there was already that grief, but then there were student deaths and then the pandemic came full force in March 2020. And so there have been the losses, there have been the physical deaths, but then there have been the death of some of our hopes and our dreams. So how does one continue moving forward-

Beth:  Right.

Shaun:  ... as one is grieving. Let me tell you this real quick. When my mother died in 2009, wonderful grief counselor here in the North Country, Mary Jones, I'll never forget. She said, "When you come back to see me bring a slinky." And I said, "Okay, all right then." And so I walk in and she said, "We always think about grief in a linear way. Stages 1, 2, 3, 4 as if when you get to stage four or five, that somehow stage one or two is now gone." She said, "No, no." She said, "This is grief." Now, so the slinky, you can picture it, it's already wound.

Beth:  Right.

Shaun:  So there's already that. She said, "But then this is grief. We're going from hand to hand. It's up and down, up and down." But she says, "You want to get to the grief where it becomes steady, where it becomes..."

Beth:  An arch.

Shaun:  That's right. More manageable. And so I try to keep slinkies in my office. I have to go and buy some more, but this notion of going back, we can hold on the wonderful memories and hold on the even unsettledness, the uncertainty of the future. But if we do it together it lessens the fear and it keeps us from being led by fear. And so I've been acknowledging grief with students in groups as well as one on one in that way.

Amelia:  Sure. I was reading something the other day about grief that reminds me of what you were just saying of how you get to a place where it can hit, but it doesn't haunt.

Shaun:  Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Thank you for saying, that is very powerful. For example, I think my heart will always be broken by the loss of my mother. My father's still living, but the loss of Kathleen. But with my mother, I'm no longer in agony. [crosstalk 00:  11:  49] I'll put it like that. I am still in some agony with Kathleen, but I do know that with the journeying, that things will lighten the ways in which we have to learn to live with our loved ones, even our traditions in other ways. That takes time.

Beth:  I think that there's grief and change.

Shaun:  Yes.

Beth:  Whether it's good change or bad change, there is something you're losing there, you move away for a great opportunity. There's still grief in the things that you leave behind. And I think what is powerful about the St. Lawrence Community in general is that we are a community that honors tradition, but also tries to pay paths forward. So yes, the pandemic has forced us in so many ways of face things that we never thought we would have to. We thought we had decades to try to change certain things or years, or months or whatever. And it was overnight.

Shaun:  Yes.

Beth:  And I think because of the leadership of various different faculty staff, and also students, alums,-

Shaun:  Absolutely.

Beth:  ... this community has really come together and it's managing. We're strong and we're powerful. And to your point, we are powerful united in order to make those kind of changes.

Shaun:  The resilience is pretty amazing from the student body holding one another accountable, so that we can all be here. I think that's really rich and it shows the maturity of the students and shows the power of this place. But also this place becomes home. I mean, you all know. It becomes home, so it's...

Beth:  I barely left it.

Shaun:  It's hard to... When you're here, it's home.

Amelia:  Yeah, for sure.

Shaun:  It's hard to have one's life upended in that way.

Amelia:  It's been interesting, to watch over the last couple years, of realizing the paradox of life, that joy and sorrow can coexist and talk to each other while they coexist, too.

Shaun:  Yes, indeed.

Amelia:  

And it's just been really interesting to see that play out in life here at St. Lawrence and the ways that traditions continue even as they shift and change and we learn from that change together.

Shaun:  Absolutely. I remember, especially with the class of '20 and '21, and I think we're getting ready to find with the class of '22, the thing is maybe some things they will be able to gather some traditions back, but there's some things that they still, no doubt... I mean, here we are in January and we're looking at May going, what will we have? But the thing is, these classes, like all of the classes, will teach us something. We will look back on the class of 2020, 2021, and then say, "This is what we learned from this time." And who knows what we will continue to experience in the future.

Amelia:  Sure. And there's such a deep community aspect in going through something like this. Before I was in communications and I was working with Laurentian engagement. I was working closely with a focus group from the Class of 2020 after they had graduated. And there is just this deep bonding experience of having lived through this together, having been students. And I was interviewing a student yesterday who mentioned that he was a freshman when the pandemic hit and he's never experienced a spring on campus before, but there's just this deep, profound sense of being known in having gone through in something like this. In my own life, there were big life celebrations that were experienced in a totally different way. But my friends who went through that exact same thing, we know that experience together and that-

Shaun:  That's right.

Amelia:  ... brings us together. And so it's interesting to see the power of community.

Shaun:  Absolutely. And you talked about the student and students who had never experienced certain things that other Laurentian know, but what are they showing us? First of all, we're showing that there are varied ways of being Laurentians. There's so many. So no longer can we say, "Well, you're a Laurentian only if you have experienced this particular tradition or that one." And so now we will have students who say, "I know what it is to be a Laurentian in quarantine. I know what it is to be a Laurentian who could not come back to campus for this particular semester and we were learning virtually." And so that's really rich and being known in that way and being received fully in that way.

Beth:  And I think that, that's a really important point, too. I don't care what class you are. You have gone through something that the previous generations haven't gone through or things have changed when you were a student in a way. And I think that that is sometimes what is difficult for alumni to grasp on is this idea that, they're not having the same experience or these things are offered. I struggle with that sometimes myself. I've only been out for 11 and a half years or whatever at this point. And I still struggle with, "Oh my gosh, what do you mean they're not doing X, Y, Z?"

Shaun:  I've seen it. I want students to see the bagpipes at the commencement. However, we find that the ways in which we pull from even the losses and are able to grasp joys that maybe wouldn't have seen certain things we've had. Some classes have had to work differently to find some of the joys.

Amelia:  It's interesting, too, I think we've at least from my experience and what I've seen, I've realized that being a Laurentian is in part about these great traditions that we hold, but it's also about so much more at something so much deeper than just the surface level of tradition.

Shaun:  Absolutely.

Amelia:  Not that tradition isn't important. Those traditions are valuable and they tie people together. And St. Lawrence is a community that is steeped in tradition, but there's something else even beyond that, that makes those traditions important and exists even when those traditions alter or shift and change.

Shaun:  Because ultimately all of the students, we want everyone to have a sound education. So how do we get you in that classroom? You know what I mean? With a stellar faculty and then all of the different ways that we are working on this campus and with staff. Getting them in the classroom in whatever way that they can, but then celebrating and supporting them in their lives as students as well, and supporting one another as faculty and staff as well. That's another way we've been holding one another up and faculty development, staff development, all those things, those are realities here on this campus. Sometimes students don't know our journeys as faculty and staff, but we are working to enhance our own lives and enhance the ways in which we are working so that we can journey, first of all, just in our full humanity, in authentic ways, deep in our authenticity, so that it models for them.

Shaun:  Walk into one's reality, walk into excellence, walk into the times where you are not at your best yet you are given room to stand up again, just, you know what I mean? To climb again and to lean on one another. And so we do that from Vilas Hall to The Chapel, to the sciences building, Student Center, to you all and New York City. We do it around the world, right?

Amelia:  Absolutely.

Shaun:  And many different ways that students are studying and becoming greater citizens in this world.

Beth:  Well, this is getting to the way that you speak about wanting to educate students is something that I'm interested in learning a little bit more about you. What made you choose universities and wanting to be a chaplain versus potentially working in a certain denomination's church?

Shaun:  Let me say this. The university, chaplaincy, higher education chose me, what a gift. And not this sense of, Shaun is so great. Let's go get her. No, I don't mean it in that way. Trust me. I came here very, very green. First of all, I came here in 2003, Reverend Kathleen, University Chaplain, Dr. Dan Sullivan was the President at the time. And one of the initiatives within the chaplain's office to reach out, multi-culturally, to reach out in terms of interfaith in a broader base, religious and spiritual way to connect with people in terms of progressive Christianity. And so when I came here, Reverend Kathleen and the committee she worked with, they were seeking a progressive leader. And particularly they wanted someone who could reach out to people of color, persons of all orientations, gender identities within the religious sphere and spectrum.

Shaun:  Because we know that as much as some of us may have been raised in religious and spiritual traditions that we may celebrate, some people have been harmed in and through religion and spirituality. And so how does one offer a way in which people can come to church, people can tend to their spirituality and know that they will be fully received as they are. Not if and when they do thus and so. That they will be good enough. No, you are good enough the way you are now, the way you have come to the universe. I believe who I call God, the others may call the great divine, the universe, Allah, the great ground of being, that we have been created in the image of the creator. And I recognize that that creator, the divine, is understood, worshiped, celebrated, honored in many different ways.

Shaun:   And so I came here with a one year contract. And here is what's interesting, I always, as Kathleen used to say, the universe is wild. You just never know. And I would say, you just honestly, never know where life is going to take you. And so I was brought here as the Associate Chaplain to help with the gospel choir that had already been started and then lead this service, which is rooted in the Christian tradition and opened to persons of all religious traditions or persons of none to come and be a part of this tradition. That service now is called The Gospel Service. And so people will even ask me, why is it gospel? Well, first of all, in the Greek gospel, good news.

Amelia:   Good news.

Shaun:   And so I would suggest that it is about the good news of God's love or the Divine's love for all of us, but also to remind us that we are good news.

Amelia:   I like that.

Shaun:   Because we're not always told that, we are not reminded of that. I was brought here as another part of the chaplain's office, which has an ethos of welcome and inclusion as a part of that initiative. And so I was brought here in that way. I arrived in September 2003. And I'll tell you, by 2004, I had founded and led our first gospel workshop, which we call God's Spirit and gospel music workshop and concert. I grew up in the Black church tradition with gospel music is just the background of my life. It is just the air I breathe, but I know first of all, not just the power of this music, but I know I'm preaching to the choir now that the power of music, grateful that I was able to come and they allowed me room to, "Oh yeah, you want to do something else with gospel music? Sure. Do that."

Shaun:   Well, a number of my friends in Chicago are gospel musicians. Many of them really renowned in the gospel tradition and William Hamilton. He and I, I'll never forget Christmas 2003. And he said, "Well, we should just do a gospel concert." And literally it was birthed right there. I called Kathleen, "Can I bring him?" And she said, "Whatever you need to do." And so we opened it up to anyone who would like to sing gospel music for 3, 4, 5 days. And then we present a concert to the community and the gospel workshop and concert, we had our 15th anniversary in 2019. We had to skip a couple of years because William passed away. And at the end of 2013, it took me a minute to get another workshop leader, a gospel music musician to come here who understood this workshop.

Shaun:   And this workshop is not for people who have been singing gospel music all their lives. This workshop is not for people who are necessarily Christian, but people who want to gather here and sing this music and watch the amazing happen. Not all gospel musicians could fit within the framework that I had created here in that we would not be tapering it down to, do believe in this way. Do you believe that way? No. The question is my thing is let us gather and allow spirit to work and see what happens and let people experience the particularity of, yes, this tradition, but find themselves in it.

Shaun:   Let me tell you, I had a homiletics professor, Reverend Dr. Frank Thomas, who said, 'When you push your particularity far enough, it goes universal. When you are authentically yourself, people can find themselves." So it's not a matter of me trying to become you, me trying to... But you know what, if I am in a workshop and it is choral music, I'm going to find myself amongst the best of this. I'm going to find myself. When people are authentically themselves teaching it to me. Something that is not a part of the tradition in which I grew up. You see what I'm saying there?

Beth:   Oh, I lived this with you, Shaun.

Shaun:   Yes, you did. Yes. You did.

Beth:   The biggest way that I lived this was in 2009 and the Laurentian Singers.

Shaun:   Yes indeed.

Beth:   Well, before that, I joined St. Lawrence University in the fall of 2006, immediately was accepted and joined into the Laurentian Singers, which meant that I had wonderful interactions with you almost from the beginning. And one of my favorite things that I learned, I grew up in the North Country, is a very homogenous area. And what I loved is that you got to teach me the true essence, in my opinion, of what spirituality is, which is togetherness.

Shaun:   Yes.

Beth:   And coming together and you did it through music, which is a language I love to express that through. And when we went on tour together in 2009, we sang... The first beginning portion of our program was, I think, was early American music.

Shaun:   That's right.

Beth:   And then we switched, in the second half, we had-

Shaun:   Spirituals.

Beth:   ... spirituals. And if you looked up at the makeup of our choir, you're looking at 95% White American students who probably haven't had that background, the gospel background, the Black church background. And then you had a couple of international students and then a couple students of color that were this 26 member group.

Shaun:   That's right.

Beth:   And I felt more bonded to my choir mates who I'd sang with year in, year out, six hours a week, on tours in that moment because of the connection and the way that you came about and teaching that. I think about all the things that you have done. Is it safe to say you started the MLK Service as well?

Shaun:   No, the MLK Service, they were doing Martin Luther King Service before I got here and had speakers coming sometimes. And so Rance and Dr. Margaret Bass, and Kathleen, Barry Torres, they were doing that before I got here. One of the things that when I came, moved to me where I began working with all of them. And then I changed the focus to one of the formats that I created with the MLK Services, created something called Let Freedom Sing the Martin Luther King's Sacred Song Service because when talking about Martin Luther King, one necessarily is speaking about the Civil Rights Movement. And one cannot talk about the Civil Rights Movement without talking about its music. Initially, the gospel choir, we were just singing all of the music and then we had speakers and then I realized, we want unity in this space.

Shaun:   That's when I said, "Let's gather all of the campus choirs, all campus choirs to sing." And each choir sang a song. We would have, and we do have Martin Luther King recitations and quotes in between each choir and then we learned a couple of songs where we all sing together. And the richness, first of all, the Singing Saints, Singing Sinners, Upbeats, Laurentian Singers, Ad Hoc, Gospel Choir. We are singing separately. But then coming together, just the visual is very powerful. That is a conflict. That's a struggle that we have right now because singing is hard in the pandemic. It's one of the riskier expressions because how highly transmissible, especially this variant is; however, we have better protocols, too. Better masks, we understand the ways in which we have to be distanced. So what has been profound is when you have all of the choirs come together to sing, then they invite their friends.

Amelia:   Sure.

Shaun:   Right. And sometimes their friends say, "Do we do this every year?" Yeah. We do this... "Oh, I've got to come next year." You know what I mean? Things that maybe they hadn't attended before. And so it's just a wonderful expression of unity.

Amelia:   Absolutely.

Shaun:   That's how we have been doing the Martin Luther King Services. And now it has really expanded so much, Ashlee Downing-Duke with really handling all of the service projects. And the way, when you talk about Martin Luther King, it should be a day of service as well. And panels about reconciliation and racial identities, et cetera. So we have a number of things. And so there will be Martin Luther King events the 14th through the 17th.

Amelia:   So for those listening to our podcast, actually this podcast will be released on the 14th.

Shaun:   Oh, how wonderful.

Beth:   Happy Valentine's Day.

Shaun:   I guess. Happy Valentine's Day, indeed.

Amelia:   You've talked so much about all of the different things that you've been involved with in your time at St. Lawrence and I'm curious, is there something that just comes to mind of one of your favorite memories or favorite ways you serve the St. Lawrence Community that just always just brighten you up?

Shaun:   Wow. There are a number of things. Let's see. But that's just like me. Oh, yeah. Here's one thing and then here's the fifth, anyway. The thing that just gives me so much joy is the blessing of the animals.

Beth:   You love the blessing of the animals.

Shaun:   Yes. Our service is the ways in which we gather on Sundays and the one on one council and the ways in which I get to journey with people. I also love that we recognize on Earth Day, just the honoring of the Earth, but also with St. Francis of Assisi through the Roman Catholic tradition and what it is, is the Chaplain's Office, we partner with Newman Club on campus. And so we present it together and it is a way of honoring all of creation. And so there are people in the community of faculty and staff who bring their animals to the quad. I love that the writing club comes and they bring horses and sometimes the dogs are barking going, "What is that?" It is fascinating. People who have service animals on campus. There have been rats and mice from the biology lab and things like that.

Shaun:   It is just fascinating. I think my favorite year is when a professor brought her a bearded dragon, so that was new for me.

Beth:   Oh. That is different.

Shaun:   When I walked up, that is one of the most fascinating years was when arraign location has always been the chapel. Now we had some interesting moments when someone brought goats and the goats were trying to, of course, ascend. That was interesting watching the goats. Let me tell you, as a chaplain here, I have had some experiences. Kathleen and I, we used to always talk about, "And here's another thing they didn't teach us in seminary. And here's another..." We could just... Often I said, "We need to come up with a list."

Shaun:   But as a matter of fact, there is a Facebook-

Beth:   You could write a book.

Shaun:   ... There is a Facebook group called "Things They Didn't Teach us in Seminary". So where ministers gather and name some things.

Amelia:   It's so true. It's so true.

Shaun:   But let me say this, you didn't ask me this particular piece, but one of the things that brings me the most joy and it's because it opened my heart up as well, is this notion of, yes, I am a minister. I'm an ordained minister. I'm a chaplain. And so I journey with people in that way in their religious and spiritual lives. But what about the people who do not necessarily see themselves as religious? And when you talk about spirituality, I have journeyed with a number of people who do not see themselves as spiritual because they are not adherence of a certain religious tradition.

Shaun:   But we used to talk about how we shamelessly took this from Wellesley many years ago. Our loose definition of spirituality is that which moves us towards wholeness. That changes it, doesn't it? That which moves us towards wholeness. And so I think everyone is trying to seek wholeness in their lives. And I believe spirituality is fundamental to all of our lives. That which moves us towards wholeness, that shifts it for us. That's a pivot from those who believe that the only way to be spiritual is to be religious to tend to the rituals of attending church, mosque, temple. Spirituality does not necessarily equal religion. Though spirituality may overlap with religion or belief in God, the divine, reground of being, the universe. And so that has been the great joy of really helping people. Not me, here, I have the answer for you. No, no.

Shaun:   Just helping to pull out what is already there. This sense of people are trying to be grounded. This definition, this way of accepting one's self as a spiritual being, first of all, it diffuses resistance because it does not use theistic limitations. It makes room for people. It's open ended. It levels the playing field for persons who are atheists or agnostic because first of all, I firmly believe that just because one is not in a religious tradition or something doesn't mean that you're not a seeker. You know what I mean? And so it allows seekers to enter into the experience as an equal participant. And also it's simple to remember this. Here being in the North Country, people are always doing what? They're always hiking.

Shaun:   And when I first got here, I'll never forget when I was being interviewed and they told me, "Oh yeah. And you can kayak in the morning before you come to the chapel." And I was like, "I can kayak in the morning..." Because I saw kayaks on a lot of folks' cars. You can canoe. But what's so fascinating is the folk who are hiking, people who are at the river, people who are hiking and they reach the summit, you cannot tell me these are not spiritual experiences. I have opened my being in the ways in which I experience and watch others experience their spirituality. Yes, it may include going to mass on Sunday or Saturday, but it may also be that you have gone to the river, or maybe you are doing yoga. Maybe you are doing mindfulness, exercises, and meditation. There's so many different ways that we are living out our spiritual lives.

Shaun:   And so I like bringing that to people because then now we can have a conversation. It's different from, "Oh, I'm sorry. No. I'm not... Sorry. I don't go to church." Or, "I'm not Christian." So therefore then people think the conversation is over. And my thing is, "Wait, wait, wait. But what else are you doing? And what other ways are you trying to move yourself toward fullness?" And then the conversation opens up. And then here we are, maybe it's four or five people in a circle and we are everything. We are Muslim and we are Hindu and we are Christian and we are nontheistic persons or here we are. And we're able to have this conversation because first of all, all of our lives are important in all the ways in which we come to the divine, the ways in which we engage the sacred, are quite essential and matter. And so I think that's been very rich for me.

Amelia:   Sure.

Beth:   I love that so much. One thing I learned as a performance and communication arts major on St Lawrence's campus, is that the way I've interpreted all of this, whether it's spirituality or whatever, is that we are meaning makers as humans.

Shaun:   Come on now, that's it.

Beth:   And we strive to create meaning out of anything, out of an inanimate object, out of theory, out of whatever. And we tried to communicate it to other people in ways that they may also understand it.

Shaun:   Yes.

Beth:   But everybody is individual in the way that they experience it. So if I say chair, we're all going to think of a similar thing, but we're all going to have a different chair in our head. Right?

Shaun:   Yes, indeed.

Beth:   And what I love, what you've said here today, what you continue to say on our campus is that, that should be celebrated, but it should be accepted by other people. And we should come together and listen. And I don't think that there's a better way to end a conversation than by saying... I think, especially in these times when it's hard to come together, whether it's divisiveness in the nation or if it's the pandemic, or if there's just random, horrible things going on, one of the best things that we can do is find meaning in other people and respect and accept that and try to move forward better together.

Amelia:   Yeah.

Shaun:   Yes, indeed. Thank you for that sermon. See what I tell people all the time, don't be surprised when you hear that in a sermon one day. Okay?

Beth:   Of course.

Shaun:   Thank you for that sermon nugget. That's right.

Beth:   Take it with my blessing.

Shaun:   That's right. And I'll be saying, "as Beth Dixon said the other day..."

Beth:   What's great about that is, you know probably, inevitably some of that was taken from things that you have told me over the past 15 plus years. So in a way, feel free if you want credit me. If anything, it was an amalgamation of the things that so many people at St. Lawrence have told me. But Shaun, thank you so much for your time with us today.

Amelia:   Absolutely.

Beth:   We really appreciate it.

Shaun:  What a gift this has been to be with you all, thank you for...

Beth:   Absolutely.

Shaun:   I consider this an opportunity. I love the Laurentian Community. I'm grateful to be a Laurentian for life as well.

Beth:   Yes.

Shaun:   And it's a gift to be here. Thank you.

Amelia:   Wonderful.

Shaun:   It was a gift to have you. Thank you so much, Shaun.

Amelia:   Thank you, Shaun.

Shaun:   Blessings to you.

[Music Plays]

Beth:   And there we have it. What a wonderful conversation with Shaun Whitehead. I got so much out of the conversation, but Amelia, what were the biggest takeaways that you had?

Amelia:   Oh my goodness. I absolutely loved this interview and listening to Shaun. And I think the biggest takeaway for me is just the deep calling that Shaun has to make herself and the work that she does accessible to all Laurentians, regardless of background or belief. All Laurentians are precious and make up this campus and this world community of Laurentians. And that is what really stuck with me. As I walk away, and just the amount of joy that she brings to her role.

Beth:   I've always responded so well to the things that she says and puts out into the world. Regardless of who you are, I feel like you can take something away from her, which is wonderful. And in this conversation, I mean, we spoke a lot of time actually talking about grief. Those are things that we almost sometimes hush, hush put under the rug and I'm really happy that we, let's lift the lid off the jar a little bit here and let's talk about it. And hopefully this really resonates with a lot of people. I know, I feel somewhat rejuvenated after talking about all of this. So if anything, you all got to listen into a really nice therapy session for the two of us.

Amelia:   We had a great time. We hope you did, too.

Beth:   Absolutely. So we will be back next month and I am so excited to see who our next guest will be.

Amelia:   You'll just have to tune in and find out. 

[Theme Music Plays]

Beth:   Scarlet & Brown Stories is edited and produced by Amanda Brewer, Megan Fry Dozier, Dennis Morreale, Beth Dixon, and Amelia Jantzi.

Amelia:   Our music was written by Christopher Watts, inspired by Eugene Wright, Class of '49.

Beth:   Subscribe to Scarlet & Brown Stories on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and wherever you listen to podcasts.

Amelia:   If you have a story you'd like to submit to us, you can email us at connect@stlawu.edu.

[Music Fades]

[Theme Music]

Amelia:  Hello everyone. And welcome back to the first episode of Scarlet and Brown stories in 2022. This is your co-host Amelia Jantzi, and I am delighted to be joined by a different co-host this time, please welcome Denny Morreale, class of 2007, who is the Associate Director of Annual Giving. Welcome Denny.

Dennis:  Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate that, Amelia. I've been watching from backstage throughout the life of this podcast and just delighted to be making my first appearance. So I appreciate you having me on, and I'm super excited for our show today. We've got two very exciting guests to talk about a very exciting topic. So our topic of the day is Esports. And with us to talk about that are Kyle Jicha, who is systems engineer in IT, but also our Overwatch coach and importantly, he was involved from the onset of when an Esports team was just an idea, he was part of steering it through to fruition. And then we also have our new Esports coordinator, Josh Lanza to tell us how the season's going.

Amelia:  Well as someone who knows absolutely nothing about Esports or video gaming in general, I'm really looking forward to this interview.

Dennis:  Likewise, I've got a lot to learn. I think it's a super interesting topic. I know there'll be people like my own mom and dad listening, who will be utterly bewildered. So I think us having fresh perspective and sort of beginner understanding might be just what the topic calls for.

Amelia:  All right. Well, we'll jump right in.

[Music Plays]

Dennis:  Gentlemen. Thank you very much for joining us.

Josh:  Thank you for having us.

Kyle:  Thank you very much.

Dennis:  Oh, it's a pleasure. So to kick us off, very simple straightforward question here. Why Esports and why St. Lawrence?

Kyle:  It's a good question. I can sort of tell you a little bit about the journey of how we got to where we are. I had to in conversations heard that there was some consideration of Esports since it was a growing trend in academics. And I had some personal experience. I've been a competitive gamer for quite a long time. And so I sort of heard some scuttlebutt, not really much definitive going on and had a chance conversation with Eric Shinnick, our Executive Director of Finance in probably about 2008 team. And really it sounded like there was some interest by the administration in seeing this happen. And so we just decided to take the initiative to assemble our own committee to investigate the feasibility of starting a program.

Kyle:  And so we started looking for people to sort of help us with that committee. We had some really great advocates were on the committee, including Dr. Sarah Barber, who is the Dean of the first year program. And as well as Dr. Choong-Soo Lee, who is a professor in the CS math and statistics department. And each person who came to the committee had their own sort of angle and reason for wanting to see Esports, but mostly we came to it from one of three avenues.

Kyle:  One was a focus on retention, particularly Dr. Barber was seeing some trends amongst students who were having a hard time sort of staying on top of their studies and performing academically while balancing, I think their personal ambitions and their personal goals, as far as gaming goes. And after having some conversations with her, she was very much a convert in that after having seen gaming as a potential problem, she really came around to the idea of, well if we put some structure around this and these students have this passion, how can we guide them to stay here and be successful as a student at St. Lawrence and be successful in their professional life, by getting involved in a coach and having an organized structure around those things. And so she brought at focus. We also had interest in various academic and research integrations, potentially down the road to help with enrollment management. That was another thing that both Eric, myself and Bob Durocher had, in addition Florence, who all had an idea that we would be able to see an impact on our enrollment management long term.

Dennis:  That's so interesting. So I would have as a child of the eighties, I grew up with Nintendo and watched the movie, The Wizard, which is about competitive gaming, a very proto form. It makes sense to me just in that it seems cool, but it's interesting to hear that you had that much buy-in from the start. And honestly, I wouldn't have been able to predict that there were that many angles that people would've seen early on as ways that we could improve retention and some of these other things that we're always keeping an eye on as an administration. Did you run into any funny reactions as you were shopping the program around once you had the committee put together?

Kyle:  Sure. Yeah. I mean, there was a healthy amount of skepticism, but I want to say that the reactions while they were mixed in some areas, they were mostly very supportive. The longevity of anything that's new and growing this quickly, everyone wonders, "Is this going to be a flash in the pan? Is this going to be something where we invest in and then find that maybe it doesn't get as much use or it doesn't have the staying power." But really the numbers speak for themselves. We have a younger generation that is coming up, and this is technology. This is a form factor that they're used to from a very young age, as we did some of our internal analysis, something close to 80% of our internal student population identified as a gamer in some capacity, whether that was casual or not.

Kyle:  And so the interest is there from today's students and the backing and the size of the market for Esports as its own industry outside of academics, just in the professional space is so large that it's clear that this isn't something that's going away. Companies have invested billions of dollars in this. It's going to be around for a while. And so we did some analysis and we did some surveying of our student population. And we looked at other emerging trends and we sat down with senior staff and we made a pitch to try this out in some form or factor, really focusing at the club level, starting there because we didn't really have much.

Kyle:  We had a very small lab that was grant funded and we were fortunate enough that we had some great supporters and by way of Bob and Florence, and we got a generous investment from former president Bill Fox. He gave us some startup money to reboot that, refresh it and really take the internal teams that we had identified as our proto teams. We had done some internal tournaments and got these players together and really just sourced talent. And that was really how we started at the club level. Just let's find some small tournaments and compete there and see where the proof is in the pudding.

Amelia:  And I know that this is still a fairly new program, but have you seen any indication of impact on retention? Is this team looking like it's supporting those initial goals that Florence and Bob were interested in when you first brought this idea to them?

Kyle:  Yeah. So that's interesting. I'd like to follow back up with Dr. Barber and see what analysis we can do now that the program has been varsity status for a year now and see where we might be able to make some correlations there. I was somewhat surprised when we went into this. There was this idea that our student athletes for Esports were going to be students that weren't your traditional athlete. They were maybe more introverted and less involved in other areas on campus. And what I found, which may not speak well to the retention statistics, is that all the students who are strongly motivated to be a member of the Esports team were already involved in numerous other extracurriculars, including varsity sport. And so I haven't actually gone through and done any of that. I think that that is a review item for us, not only on our retention, but also this year out and years ahead, how we're doing on the enrollment management front.

Josh:  If I can just chime in here, this being my first semester on the ground here in my official capacity, talking to that and seeing what could be there it is, as Kyle said, there might be some early indicators overall to see a trend with a total of what three semesters might be a little too early to tell yet. But I can also say that this semester we just launched another game title on the varsity roster. I launched Super Smash Brothers on our varsity roster. So for those, the uninitiated, we have three titles on our varsity roster, Super Smash Brothers, League of Legends, and Overwatch. Overwatch being the one Kyle coaches and Eric Shinnick would be the third leg of our stool here. He coaches League of Legends. I coach Smash.

Josh:  And I have to say just from starting Smash, I pulled six students out of the woodwork that wouldn't have been involved with Esports. Like Kyle said, they all are involved in something else. They seem to be engaged in that respect as well. So I've got people who do the music ensemble. I had a student do the play this fall and a student he's the president of the greenhouse so he's our captain as well. A lot of involvement, I've seen that as well. So I will say though, it seems that the more we spread our wings and pull people from different angles of the college that seems to generate more buzz from the students that could help us in the long run. But overall, it's probably too early to tell the overall impact.

Dennis:  Still it's interesting. You mentioned some affinity crossovers that I wouldn't have necessarily been able to predict. When I think Esports, the first thing that jumps to mind isn't the greenhouse necessarily. I mean, it's-

Amelia:  Not the theater kids?

Dennis:  Yeah.

Josh:  Yeah.

Dennis:  Look I mean, it's really neat though. I'm not shocked by it, but it wouldn't have met my assumptions, so to speak. Are you seeing a broad spread in terms of hitting those different areas and in particular I'm interested, are you seeing a gender spread as well? I think that's another area it's sometimes thought of as a very male form of competition.

Josh:  Yeah. And to speak to that, Kyle can feel free to add what he feels he needs to add, but it's no deep dark secret that Esports is a male dominated sport. That doesn't mean that women can't participate. In fact, I've seen just my personal endeavors a rise of women gamers, and I'm proud to say I have a wonderful female athlete on my Smash team, Eliza, she's great, big improvements this semester. And as a program, I'm actively recruiting for any female gamers that want to attend as well. I believe the diversity for gaming is gaming's greatest strength, unlike any other traditional sport, they have some sort of physical capacity. With Esports, as long as you can hold a controller, you can play, everybody gets the fair shake here. That's what I want to bring when I'm trying to actively recruit for this institution, is anybody from any corner, any walk of life can try out here. That's a point of pride for us.

Amelia:  Yeah. I'm interested, you brought up this idea of diversity within gaming. And so I'm just sort of curious, how has this team changed the culture of athletics, of being able to have this diverse space? Just tell me a little bit about that and what the impact has been there?

Josh:  I think it's been overall a very positive impact of bringing people together for this common interest that we have. I didn't also mention our League of Legends team, our captain's a female gamer. Ninie has been the captain now for years since it's been in the varsity realm. So she started, as Eric told me, bare bones, basic knowledge, worked her way up all the way to the captain's spot. And it just goes to show she's taken a big leadership role. She's also our SAC representative over at athletics. She's taken on a lot of leadership roles with our Esports club. Working with her, I want to even develop that club out further for the next semester.

Josh:  This kind of thing where we see people from all these corners and walks of life having this common interest, like you said, Denny there's people that you might even expect to have this interest that have it. It's cool when you see all these different people from different areas of the campus that might not necessarily get together under other circumstances, getting together for this and actually putting their heart and soul into it. We had three very dedicated teams this semester, all of our teams posted winning records. They take this stuff seriously. And we had a good season. I'll let Kyle speak on the Overwatch side, but I was very impressed with what they did. Had a good season, wouldn't you say, Kyle?

Kyle:  Yeah, absolutely. To go back to your question about how Esports, the inclusion of Esports as a varsity Esport may have changed the culture of athletics. My lens is in having not been a part of athletics proper prior to this, I'll say that the reception was warm and I felt pretty well received. Though, I do think that it's been a process and will probably continue to be a process for some of the traditional athletics to really understand what is Esports. That title is somewhat abstract to some folks who I think that there's still some education to go on there and really unpacking all that goes into formal Esports and competition.

Kyle:  And the level of physical dexterity and endurance that is required for something that a traditional athlete may look across the hall and see someone sitting in a chair playing a game, and it doesn't look like it's anything that is particularly taxing or demanding, but the reality is when you're doing that for two to three hours back to back without a break, and it really requires to perform at a high level, phenomenal reaction time, and very, very well practiced and well honed, very small muscle memory to execute some of the maneuvers that they do. It's very real that they have to put in that amount of time and effort. There's concerns over repetitive stress injuries, just you would have with any other traditional sport. And I think getting there has been a bit of a process, but it's been a great journey to go on. And I think that it's enriched both sides.

Kyle:  They have helped us tremendously in terms of helping us to structure our offerings, our policies and guidelines. A lot of that stuff, we were coming from the club level where we didn't have that. And so it's been great to have a home that has this structure, that we can go to them and lean on them in those areas that we need them. I have a student that has a carpal tunnel type issue. We can go and use those trainers, work that out. Those kinds of fits that really make it an ideal fit in my mind. And every university has a different approach to what they do with their Esports. Not all of them make it a varsity sport. And it's more of a student engagement, student activity thing.

Josh:  To add to that, the student engagement side, varsity side of things. One of the reasons I got attracted to St. Lawrence in the first place was the fact that I knew when I was coming here, they treated it as a varsity sport. I think that is important. I understand there's many other colleges that do put it under student activities or a club sport or something like that. But when I'm talking to recruits, I advertise the fact that we are a varsity sport and all the things that come with that varsity status that we're treated just like the football team or the hockey, you name it. That's important and it's important to students as well, that we receive that kind of treatment. And I've appreciated the backing that I have had from the athletics side of things.

Amelia:  What do you think that that says about St. Lawrence, that they treat this team as a varsity sport?

Josh:  We take it seriously. We understand the benefits. It is a bit of an investment. I know Kyle said, there's a healthy bit of skepticism with it to start this program, as there should be. There's a little bit of a feel of a gamble when you start and investing in a full time position. But I believe in this and they clearly believe in this. And that means if they believe in this, we can sell this to recruits and say, "Hey, I'll actually have a place here. I'll be a valued member of the athletic community. People value my talent and my skills." Those are those things that Kyle mentioned that you have to do in order to be a successful competitive gamer. That can go underappreciated or misunderstood or something. That's not going to happen here. They realize that once they set foot on the team here.

Dennis:  So it's interesting from a recruitment standpoint, and I'm just so curious how those conversations have gone for you and what you're hearing, are perspective students finding it persuasive that we have this program?

Josh:  Yes. The ones that are interested in Esports, they do. And if there's a couple things I could tell you that they really find persuasive. Fact one, that we have a dedicated space for them to play at. An Esports lab here has been a work in progress since I've set foot here in July. It's come a long way since July. I don't believe it's completely done yet. It's still a work in progress, but it's a place where people come now, I have students in there as we speak who are gaming right now. So they do appreciate having the space. And the fact that Kyle and I, we went there this summer and we put those computers together with our own two hands. We didn't call Alienware up and say, "Hey, give me 15 machines." Kyle knows what needs to be in these computers, found the parts. We found the most bank for our buck, and we got them put together and people appreciate that time and dedication to it.

Josh:  They also appreciate the fact that we have dedicated coaches to each of our titles right now. So we've got Kyle for Overwatch, Eric for League and me for Smash. A lot of other schools, they have one person in my position who might have three, four, five titles on shoulders. And that's frankly, just too much for any one person to give the attention those deserve. So they want to know they're going to get some good attention from an individual perspective. And that's important to them as well. We have that here at St. Lawrence. And when I tell them those things, the recruits, their eyes light up when we're having that conversation. And they know that, "Oh, maybe I should look into St. Lawrence just a little bit more if they take it this seriously."

Dennis:  So that sort of leads me to think, as we think about prospective students evaluating St. Lawrence against other options, that those other options are presumably going to be other division rivals of ours or the teams that we're playing. What does the competitive landscape look like right now for Esports? Like does Esports have a 'Bama, for example?

Josh:  Yeah. I'll let Kyle talk about it. Because he just had his season as well. He knows a little bit about what the schools are out there. I don't know. We did play against 'Bama actually in League of Legends, I-

Dennis:  That was definitely a joke.

Josh:  We played against the crimson tide.

Dennis:  That's amazing.

Josh:  We've played against the crimson tide as an Esports team, but I'll Kyle go.

Kyle:  Yeah. And so I'll just say in terms of, is there a 'Bama of Esports? I think that this comes down to what is Esports? Esports is a collection of many different titles. And while there are some very big, heavy hitters out there that have a strong rosters for all of their titles there, there's a couple that are really big. In the leagues that we run in Bay State, Illinois, Wesleyan and Boise State are really big ones. We compete currently our biggest leagues that we belong to are National Association of Collegiate Esports referred to as NACE. And they are the biggest independent collegiate organization. And then we also compete in the East Coast Athletic Conference. They have an Esports only organization and tournament.

Kyle:  And both of those organizations, as well as others have grown almost exponentially. If you look at the numbers of where NACE was at in 2016, I think that they were just creeping into the double digits of member schools and they are now I want to say up close to 300 member organizations. Their website, I checked, I think it's dated, I have 175 on there and I think that those are last year's numbers. But I'd have to go back and look at it exactly, but a massive spreadsheet with many, many geographic regional conferences involved in going through regular season play. It's really blown up on the collegiate level, especially from 2018 on. That's when it really started to hit critical mass. So depending on where you're competing, you'll see different schools and some schools, Maryville, who's probably the biggest name, at least as far as Overwatch goes, they have won the Overwatch collegiate championship three years in a row.

Kyle:  And so those are sort of your big mainstays there, but it's very different from traditional athletics where you have these strict divisions and your size of your institution determines where you play. It's very much the wild West and the two that are doing their best to corral that and put some order and organization to the chaos right now are NACE and ECAC. Those are the prevailing ones and that's where we're focusing the majority of our time and energy. But in so many ways, it has so many things that are in common with traditional athletics and then other things that are different. There's a scholarship cash prize associated with ECAC and NACE. So if you win, you can split that cash prize, that's cash scholar ship amongst your roster. And that goes down to even small little tournaments that anyone, any club team can put a team together and go out there and play. We're not governed by NCAA, which is-

Dennis:  Oh okay, I was just about to ask.

Amelia:  Interesting.

Dennis:  Yeah.

Kyle:  Yep. There's no governing body really that sets those rules apart from when you get into the league to compete. So for us, it's NACE and ECAC. That said, we still hold ourselves particularly since becoming a varsity sport here at St. Lawrence we're held to the same standards of conduct and everything that we would normally expect of our NCAA athletes. So when it comes to compliance and all of those things, we adhere to those same standards with the obvious difference being what you can and can't do around recruiting and scholarships and things like that.

Dennis:  So as we look long term at our competitive positioning, what are the feathers in our cap right now? What do we have going for us? And then what are some of the obstacles we might have as a institution looking to compete over the long haul?

Josh:  Yeah. So I can start by saying this particular season, the fall season, all three of our game titles posted winning records for the regular season.

Dennis:  That's great. Congratulations.

Josh:  Thank you. And in Smash's inaugural season, we made it to round three of the ECAC playoffs. We even kept it close. We did not hand them the game. So it was best two out of three, we lost in three. So we did take a game from them. And coach Kyle had a Overwatch team make it to round two of the ECAC playoffs. We had a very close loss against SUNY Canton, our rivals down the road. So it was a tough team. Their varsity team is very good. And the fact that we took them to literally, as long as we could possibly take them for a game of Overwatch is to be commended for that.

Josh:  So I believe the foundations of winning teams are here at St. Lawrence, we have that. There is definitely room for improvement, obviously, and we're taking that very seriously going into the spring as to how to do that. I believe it comes a little bit from recruiting high level players, as much as we can attract them to St. Lawrence. But it also, I think, comes from the grassroots as well, farming up what we have here and doing our best with baking solid teams. I'll let Kyle speak for himself, but I can tell you that his team in particular, this year, there was some turnover. He had to mold the group. Some people didn't even know each other at the beginning of the semester, right Kyle?

Kyle:  Yeah, for me, the biggest feather in our cap and what I find to be the most moving part about all of this, this whole journey for me, has just been how much initiative and drive and effort the students have put into this from day one.

Josh:  Absolutely.

Kyle:  And by day one, I mean, we held in very early. This was January, may have even been December of 2019 or January of 2020, but we held a tournament to gauge interest in these titles and see if we had players and those teams basically formed that night, whether they knew it or not. There was different additions and people have come and gone since then. But the drive that they had to see this be not just a club sport, but to strive to really fully represent the university. That passion, it fueled me and it fueled the program.

Kyle:  And it was when we made the ask, the suggestion to, "Hey can we go?" That was our big thing, we wanted to compete in NACE. And NACE says, "You need to be officially recognized by your university. You can't just be a club team. You need to be officially recognized." And so we drafted a letter to senior staff, all of us, the whole team, and we all put our names on it and we made our best pitch. And all we were looking for was just, "Can we get the official?" We weren't expecting varsity status or anything like that, but we have a lot of good things going for us. We did our due diligence when it came to doing our research. And I think the experience St. Lawrence task force had some really good information in terms of net annual revenue generation for us projected.

Kyle:  So all of that sort of helped us make that sell and get there, but this was a grassroots effort. And the students have just time and time again, blown me away with how hard they're willing to work and I mean work to get this to where it's been. It's been a community led effort, and it's just been such a positive experience. I can't say enough about it. We can only go up from here. We've just begun our recruitment efforts in earnest. And so all of the players that we've had to date have all been, with the exception of one recruit that we did get fall of last year specifically for Overwatch, they've been a walk on team. And to be able to make it into ECAC playoffs, three semesters running, make it as far as the elite eight once with walk on players.

Kyle:  And even looking at this season where we went up against SUNY Canton's varsity team is in relative to the Esports world, they're much more mature than we are, and they've spent more time and effort recruiting and building that. And we went for a six game series with them. We went toe to toe and it could've been anyone's match at any point in time. I swell with pride just thinking about it.

Dennis:  That's fantastic. So I got to know, does Clarkson have a team yet?

Kyle:  They compete in some club type stuff. I know that they have some Smash players, but I have not run into them in the Overwatch competitive scene in any of our venues.

Dennis:  I love that we're first in, as far as the two of us then, and I think we got to just bulk up as long as we can, before they get here.

Amelia:  We'll be ready. I just, I should have asked this earlier in our conversation, but as someone who's not particularly familiar with competitive gaming, like what does coaching Esports mean? What does that look like? What does a standard training session look like?

Kyle:  That's a great question. And I think that, to go back to a little bit of what Josh said, it can probably vary depending on the institution what the roles and responsibilities from a coach are. So each of these titles are very dynamic and very... Rather than something like basketball, which has the NCAA governs the rules that are used there. So these games are completely owned and controlled by private companies that everything from how the game plays out, they're regularly patched and changed. The changes that are made on the game level can be as impactful as say raising or lowering the basketball hoop by three feet from one week to the next.

Kyle:  And so what does that mean for coaching? It means that you need to have a good understanding of the macro of the game, whatever the title might be, for me it's Overwatch so I need to understand enough about how the game is played, the map type and everything else to know what the winning condition is at any moment. And so you're basically playing chess in a first person shooter format, so you need to be thinking ahead about where you're positioning, about what your next moves are going to be, how to make most usage out of, this is going to be a jargon term, but make the most usage out of your ultimates. Basically the game, you play your character, your hero, in their assigned role. And depending on how well you do, you form up these ultimates that can turn the tide of battle. And so you want to work with your team to coordinate that.

Kyle:  But as far as how does coaching look? It usually means sitting down with your team as they're going through either ranked competitive play and recording their video, looking at their positioning, their ultimate usage, their ability usage, how frequently they're doing things and giving them feedback based on that on a micro level for that person, that player, their job that they have to do, just like you would give feedback to a quarterback.

Kyle:  And then there's high level game sense and strategy where we know that this opponent favors these maps, they favor these heroes when they play and so how do we come up with a strategy that minimizes their strengths as much as possible and highlights our strengths as much as possible. And that's really what goes in for a match preparation, but our practices are largely what you call scrimmage. We do a lot of practice games against other institutions and use that as an opportunity to run different compositions, try different strategies. We record all of those. We give feedback after the fact on that and just unpack that much like a football team would sit and review tape.

Amelia:  I have to say, I'm really, I'm quite struck by the amount of dedication and passion that it sounds like your teams and your students have shown in this process. And I think that it's really inspiring to see how they've taken an ownership for creating this space as part of the St. Lawrence culture for this kind of competition and for those students that find so much passion in that competition as well.

Josh:  It's true. Amelia, the dedication that our Esports students have is unbelievable. I'll tell you from my first experience coaching first time this semester with this group, when we did our first VOD review, like Kyle mentioned, all three of us, we all look at our film and I felt like I was facilitating the most interesting class in the whole campus. The eyes were just glued to the screen, taking notes. There was just so much interest and engagement movement on a level I've never seen before. When it comes to wanting to improve their game play people actually valued what I had to say, constructive criticism I could provide. It's a feeling unlike anything else and I have to imagine a traditional sports coach probably looks at it in a similar light.

Kyle:  Yeah. And I think Josh, that's a great word that you used there, because I really that's really how I see myself. Depending on the institution, the coach for a particular game, they may or may not have a lot of vertical game sense. They may or may not have former professional or semi-pro experience or high level game play. They may have been highly ranked in Overwatch or League of Legends or whatever, they may be coaching. For me, I'm not a grand master Overwatch player. I did have the supreme privilege of having one of our first students that was on our inaugural team, who was a GM support player. And our current coach who still is a very highly ranked, very knowledgeable, has deep, vertical game knowledge. And it's my job as a coach to empower them to teach the rest of the team because for me and my responsibilities and the roles that I have, I can't stay super vertical on all of those things. So those micro gameplay things, I farm a lot of that out to our captains and I work with them.

Kyle:  I'm there for macro gameplay. I'm there to set the tone to work on communication and collaboration, to help them keep their schedules and things in place and keep their wide angle lens on and really let them differ to their own in-house expertise and help them find those external resources. If they feel like they're deficient in a particular area or if we notice that there's something that we need to develop on a micro level, that we don't have that experience. We've done VOD reviews with external coaches and things like that to fill those gap.

Amelia:  So we're at the end of a semester now so what's going on at the teams as we wrap up this conversation? What's going to be going on for your titles and your teams in this next semester?

Josh:  What's happening for Overwatch, Kyle?

Kyle:  Well, I think Overwatch, both myself and the team are looking forward to a little bit of a well-deserved break. We've been going for about three semesters strong now competing. And I, myself am going to take time this next semester between pretty much now and the spring to focus on recruitment, focus on reaching out to prospects. Team will switch to a much more relaxed or to captain practice schedule where they will just do some informal practices to keep the rust from accumulating on the gears. And then we'll be back at it in the fall again. They may opt to enter some smaller tournaments and compete there. And if we do, we would probably, where possible, try and stream those on our Twitch account as well. But yeah, we're looking forward to a little bit of a break and really looking to sure up the team with some new recruits and get back at it, start our practice late summer and be ready to hit the ground running in the fall. And hopefully just keep moving forward and moving upward in the rankings.

Josh:  On the flip side, League of Legends is going to be ramping up in the spring. So if you're looking for your Esports fix on our Twitch stream, you can check out League of Legends, we will of course be streaming all the games there on a weekly basis. And I'm continuing with the Smash team as well this spring. We're looking for some fresh faces to join Smash. I'm going to be heating it up as well for the spring there.

Kyle:  So keep your eyes posted on saintsathletics.com has there's a section there for Esports that has all of our upcoming matches. It also has links to our Twitch account, our Twitch channel, where we stream all of our matches. And there may be some links to like an Instagram. We're working on improving our social media profile to keep people engaged so stay tuned for more on that to be able to follow that more dynamically.

Amelia:  Well, thank you both so much and sharing with us this really dynamic and exciting story that you have. And I think that just really wonderfully shows the amount of passion and dedication that St. Lawrence students and Lawrence share.

Kyle:  Thank you for having us.

Josh:  It was great to be here. Thank you.

[Music Plays]

Amelia:  Well, there you have it everyone. As again, like I said, someone who knows nothing about the world of video gaming, I can now say that I know significantly more than I ever expected to. What did you think of this interview, Denny?

Dennis:  I'm just sort of blown away by the whole thing. You know, it's a brave new world we're in here. But what's really cool is just seeing that we have some really great people steering the ship, and I know that this is going to mean a ton to a lot of students to get to participate in competitive thing like this who might not have otherwise had that experience at St. Lawrence. And so I'm just really excited to see how they do.

Amelia:  Yeah, I definitely was struck with the involvement that students had from such an early stage and that it was this passion of both the coaches and our students that wanted to see this come to life, that saw that it had something to offer our campus and our community and that our community decided to invest in it. And I think that that just says a lot about how we think about all Laurentians and finding a place on campus for all Laurentians here. I thought it was super fascinating myself. Well, we will see you all next time on Scarlet & Brown Stories. Thanks everybody.

Dennis:  Thank you.

[Theme Music Plays]

Beth Dixon:  Scarlet and Brown Stories is edited and produced by Amanda Brewer, Megan Fry Dozier, Dennis Morreale, Beth Dixon, and Amelia Jantzi.

Amelia:  Our music was written by Christopher Watts inspired by Eugene Wright, class of 49.

Beth Dixon:  Subscribe to Scarlet and Brown Stories on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and wherever you listen to podcasts.

Amelia:  If you have a story you'd like to submit to us, you can email us at connect@stlawu.edu.

[Music Fades]

[Theme Music]

Amelia:  Hello everyone, welcome back to another episode of Scarlet & Brown Stories. This is Amelia Jantzi with my co-host, Beth Dixon.

Beth:  Hi, how are you doing Amelia?

Amelia:  I'm good. It's almost the holiday... It is the holidays now.

Beth:  It is the holidays, I am very excited.

Amelia:  You all can't see us out there, but both Beth and I are sporting some lovely seasonal red plaid today.

Beth:  Listen, we understood the assignment which was to represent the North Country and the holiday season in one package, from about seven hours apart because I'm in New York city.

Amelia:  That's true that you abandoned the North Country for that big city lifestyle.

Beth:  It's true. I did. I did. But you know something I'm not forgetting about is the fact that at the time of us recording, it hasn't happened but by the time of the podcast release, the 100th candlelight service will have already happened and I'm very excited about this.

Amelia:  If I remember correctly, Beth, candlelight was a really big part of your student experience at St. Lawrence.

Beth:  It really was. Being a member of the Laurentian singers meant that every year I got to sing as a part of candlelight for the exception of the semester, I was abroad, but then when I worked as an employee for the University on-campus, I got to be a part of the University Chorus and sing and got to be a part of the procession of singing E-Day-O, got to sing a few different kinds of songs when I was there. So I think I've performed in about eight different candlelight services in my life, but I love them very much. I hope that if you weren't able to attend in person that you were able to watch the live stream, it is such a special ceremony in tradition on-campus and I know I will be lighting my candle from home and joining in with this singing.

Amelia:  Very exciting. Well, speaking of exciting, we have a really exciting conversation coming up with Andy Chan, class of 2014.

Beth:  Andy is such a wonderful young leader in our community and I can't wait to hear all about what his history has been with St. Lawrence and what he hopes to continue to do because he is a board of trustee member as well.

Amelia:  Well, let's not waste any more time, let's jump right in. Welcome Andy.

[Music Plays]

 

Andy:  Thanks for having me.

Amelia:  Thank you so much for being here. Andy, we really wanted to start off partly because you're such an involved Laurentian and have been involved in so many ways since your graduation. You've been part of Laurentians in residents, I believe you were on our slew connect live program last year and you're also a trustee, and so we are curious, what other ways have you been involved and what has inspired you to be so engaged with the University?

Andy:  Yeah, absolutely. So other than what you've mentioned, oftentimes students will reach out to me, so I'd say maybe once every other week, couple times a month, give some career advice, help folks out or a little bit nervous about upcoming interviews but we all wind up where we're supposed to and they all end up doing a great job. So super happy to support wherever I can. As far as why continue to give back to the University and give back time is, there have been phenomenal people, faculty, staff that have made such a large mark on my life and I feel it's my obligation as Laurentian to make sure that the next generation of students gets the same thing.

Andy:  So Dr. Bansak and Dr. Cheezum and actually Lynn Fox played a huge role in my life in the economics department. I played in a funk band with Larry Boyette, that was a fantastic experience as well and then actually some of my fellow trustees in particular Ed Keller and Cheryl Grandfield, they were the ones who helped me land my first job and get the internship in the New York city semester. So, that's only a few names, off the top of my head but again, the power of Laurentian connections is real and so I want to be as active as I possibly can in that.

Beth:  I have the opportunity to work with the New York city semester program now and it is so amazing to see the students come and really interact with the greater Laurentian community for the first time, sometimes. Was that the first time you were connected with Laurentian? Or did you take advantage of getting involved with the alum community as a student before you went on the New York city semester?

Andy:  Yeah. So coach Bob Durocher introduced us to a lot of the alumni and soccer team is actually really neat to meet some of the guys who were on the 99 National Championship team and they were great role models for us throughout my time at St. Lawrence.

Beth:  That's fantastic. Yeah, I think that, that early exposure to learning about how connected the University is even like once you've graduated, the love and the connection that our alumni have, being exposed to that early in your St. Lawrence's career, I think, sets you up for that networking experience as you're a student and then when you're a young alumni as well.

Andy:  Absolutely.

Amelia:  Yeah. You mentioned that you're in touch with students who come to you for career advice and I'm curious, do you end up staying in touch with these students? Have you seen where they've ended up? Or seeing the fruit of that connection and that advice that you were able to give them pay off?

Andy:  Yeah, absolutely. On a side note, when I was at St. Lawrence, I was again, studied economics. I never knew technology was going to be a route for me, it's where I end up having most of my career to this point and I met a couple students who were in the computer science department who asked me, "Hey, Andy, you never learn how to code while you're in school. You're an economics major. How did you break into this field?" And I asked them the reverse question. I was like, "Wait a second. I know nothing about coding, you're ready to go in the tech field. Why aren't you going?" There are a couple folks that I've spoken to in that realm, who I keep in touch with at least monthly, quarterly, or who are doing great working at companies like eBay, Google, Apple, it's amazing where they end up and how St. Lawrence prepares you for these things.

Amelia:  Before we move on any more into our conversation, I was wondering if you could just give us a really brief recap, what the shape your life has taken since graduation to get you to where you are today?

Andy:  Sure. I always joked the most important thing that happened to me at St. Lawrence was meeting my wife. So we graduated together in 2014 and Sam has played a huge role in who I am today. Support wise, personally, as a partner in life, she's been great and it's serendipitous, I don't know what the statistic is today, but it ends up being, I think, a lot of wrench ends up getting married, so I'm in that bucket now. And so, since moving down here professionally, I've worked in a wide range of entrepreneurial software ventures. So everything from financial technology to artificial intelligence, I've gotten a couple extra degrees after St. Lawrence, I got a master's in analytics from Johns Hopkins, and I recently got my MBA from Duke and their weekend executive program and I'm also in the process of launching my own company with a classmate of mine from Duke, the name of the company is Track Record Health, and what we do is we automate compliance activities for ambulatory surgery centers.

Beth:  Oh, wow.

Andy:  So, been a very busy bee, going to school, trying to start my own company working a full-time job but again, St. Lawrence is a great place to learn how to learn and that's skill set is never going to go away.

Amelia:  For sure. What inspired you to sort of develop your own company?

Andy:  I've always been a person who honestly, doesn't like to take direction from other people. So there's this element of independence that I really like, but at the same time jokingly, right? It's also about building a team, it's grounding yourself with folks who can make up for some of the weaknesses or shortcomings you may have and so to take on a problem in the market and build an amazing team is something that's really appealing to me and that was one of the reasons I wanted to go to business school as well is to combine my background in technology with this interest that I continue to have in entrepreneurship.

Beth:  What was your, just out of curiosity, what was your internship on the New York city semester and how did that potentially impact what you wanted to do after St. Lawrence?

Andy:  So I interned with Ed Keller at Morgan Stanley in the prime brokerage division and so there, I learned a lot about the hedge fund industry but in particular, I learned a lot about alternative investments and so at the time, venture capital, private equity was starting to generate outsized returns all to the market and so people in the investment community were looking to get more exposure to that. Now, I'll be very honest, I didn't know, maybe three quarters of what was being said to me, but I was just being a sponge, right? Writing down all of the words and looking them up online when I got home and it was a really neat, fast paced environment. New York city was a great place to be in my later years at St. Lawrence.

Beth:  And did that help guide you? Did you want to go into hedge funds? I know that you're more on the tech side of things and there's plenty of opportunities in tech and hedge funds and such. Did you marry those experiences with your first job?

Andy:  I tried to get into the investment banking and hedge fund industry, first thing out of school, again, Laurentians opened a lot of doors for me but it ended up being, I just didn't have the technical chops for it, didn't have enough of a background in accounting and some of these other things but by happenstance, my senior year, I had a couple of classmates and I went to the University of Michigan to do a stock pink competition and somehow we found our way into Forbes because we had this really dramatic story of right before competition, the stock we picked, dropped something like 60 or 70% and we were scrambling on our way out to Michigan in the car, freaking out, trying to figure out what to do and we pitched it anyways and things went really well. We got media coverage around it, so my teammates, let's see it was Vasilios and Justin, it was a really funny story. I think we'll all remember.

Beth:  That must have been very exciting and a little stressful.

Andy:  Yeah and the funny thing about it was when we did that pitch right before we left, that's when Cheryl Grandfield and some of the trustees, they caught wind of it and said, "Hey, we want to listen to this pitch of yours. We want to give you some feedback." And so they saw the pitch, they thought we were great, they ended up, I think, hooking us up with a lot of our first job opportunities from that pitch and from that whole media coverage and so, it was by accident that I stumbled into technology through my interest in investing because Cheryl ultimately made the introduction to the software company I worked in.

Beth:  And what was the first software company? What was your main responsibility? Because if I remember correctly, when I met with you a few years ago down in North Carolina, I believe you then said that you helped open the door for somebody else from St. Lawrence to come work at either your first or your second job.

Andy:  Yeah. So my first job, I worked at a company called Sageworks, they were required a couple years back by Accel KKR, but they specialized in financial risk management software, so I helped them build a business valuation software tool, pretty much from scratch with another software engineer and an intern, and so it was kind of like my first year out of St. Lawrence and at the time they were hiring pretty rapid. So I hired, there's another St. Lawrence student the year behind me, who I knew pretty well was looking for a job and we got him in, interviewed well, fit right in with a crew.

Beth:  Is that something that you believe that the St. Lawrence community does really well, is interviewing and connecting people? Or do you think that, that's something that we should be working on as a community is we're good at connecting, but maybe we need to brush up on interviewing skills?

Andy:  Every student that I've interviewed and hired, actually I just recently hired another St. Lawrence student.

Amelia:  Oh, wow. [crosstalk 00:12:07]

Andy:  At Avalara, were I'm working now. Yeah. He just graduated, his name's Jeff Yaun and by the way, he came into Avalara he had nothing just like me, right. I looked at him. I was like, "You look just like me, when I knew nothing about software, how to develop, how to be a product manager, but you're really smart and you learn fast." And he came in and he's crushing it right now.

Amelia:  It's awesome.

Andy:  Yeah. So if you study hard, you get good references from the professors, that's usually how I find these top St. Lawrence students. They always come in and do really well, interview well, execute well, learn quickly, everyone I've hired, I think, is a really strong career potential.

Amelia:  Yeah. What do you think it is about the St. Lawrence experience that prepares students to go into the professional world and succeed that way?

Andy:  I think one is that eagerness to learn and willingness to try different things, that's unique to the liberal arts experience, right. When I look back my own experience, who else at a technical school, let's say, could claim they played in a funk band, studied economics and then took art classes and played [crosstalk 00:13:14].

Amelia:  Take that Clarkson.

Andy:  Yeah. Yeah, exactly. You learn to be a Jack of all trades, which is particularly in the technology industry is super valuable and not only that you learn how to develop really good relationships with people with all walks of life and different interests and in the technology sphere, you're merging these really technical software engineers, these really design centric, artistic people and then sales and marketing and trying to drive business value at the same time. It's a confluence of a lot of very, very different people and personalities.

Amelia:  Oh, sure. That's totally different languages that these people speak.

Andy:  Yeah. So they desperately need what we call product managers, right, who bridge the gap between the tech side and then the marketing sales, et cetera side, if you go on the market side and that's where the gap where I think, a lot of St. Lawrence graduates can fill really, really well, again, because of the exposure to a diversity of different topics.

Beth:  You bring up that role, that it is the liberal arts role, as I like to call them in companies, and a lot of times those are not the roles that a lot of people are aware of when you think about any given field, when you're thinking about law or tech or finance, communications and those kind of fields. Do you have suggestions of how St. Lawrence students and young alumni can learn more about those roles or find those roles when they're looking for job opportunities? Because like you said, I think they're uniquely suited for the kinds of experiences students have at St. Lawrence.

Andy:  I can't speak for the bigger companies, because I've never worked at a company more than 5,000 people. It seems like a lot of people but in the grand scheme of things, it's not that big. If you're looking for kind of a utility player, versatility role, actually there's a great website out there called Tech Crunch and they really focus on kind of the venture private equity community and what companies they're investing in and so these are high growth startups or companies that have already been funded, that are scaling really quickly, I think that's where liberal arts folks, especially St. Lawrence students thrive because even though your job title there is XYZ, you're going to be expected and have to do something that's completely unrelated to it and that's where your skill sets going to come in. So looking at job postings there, I'd say, in our product management capacity, marketing or sales capacity, if you're more technical, maybe in like a data analyst, a programming capacity is a great place to start.

Beth:  Absolutely. And I also find that anytime that people who are good at working with people, you have those client success manager kind of roles, like you want to be representative of the company that you're working for, but work with clients, maybe not in a sales capacity, those kind of roles also look really great for those liberal arts backgrounds.

Andy:  Exactly.

Amelia:  Are you good with people?

Beth:  Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

Amelia:  Yeah and it's interesting talking about these themes of community in the professional sphere, but I'm sort of curious as to, you mentioned your wife, but what role has the Laurentian community played in your life on the more personal side of things?

Andy:  Some of my best friends these day are St. Lawrence grads, I think we've got all the weddings checked off at this point.

Beth:  For this year. Wait until next year.

Andy:  Well, I think, yeah. Everybody actually, like the closest friends group is now married and the kids are slowly starting to come into the picture.

Amelia:  Oh yeah.

Andy:  And so the baby showers and some of that's the next phase of this and then probably the second and third kids possibly, depending on where we choose to go and then the most exciting part starts where, you as uncle Andy and auntie Sam gets to start corrupting it. So I'm really looking forward to that telling all the embarrassing stories of the parents.

Amelia:  I'm sure they'll be thrilled.

Beth:  That is the responsibility, of course. Yes, the college friends always have to keep the parents in check. I think that's the most important thing I've learned.

Andy:  That's right.

Amelia:  Well, and I know for a lot of people and like in my own life too, the importance of community was really, really shown to have so much power over the last couple of years, as we went through the pandemic and so I'm curious as to how, if at all, did those Laurentian connections, those best friends, did they play a role in the last two years in navigating this unprecedented time?

Andy:  Absolutely. You can always rely on those folks to have a good laugh and also have a really good intellectual conversation with them when you need it, right. So I think about one of my roommates, Riley, I usually follow him up once every couple months and we always reminisce and my face hurts after we get off time or after we get off of call. He's one of the ones with a kid coming along by the way, so I'm really excited for that. I know I have another great friend, Garrett who used to be like an econ-nerd with me all the time. So we're exchanging texts all the time and we read stuff in the journal or Bloomberg or wherever, trying to make predictions about the future, most of the time we're wrong but it's fun nonetheless. you need the people that kind of keep your mind engaged and your soul and your heart happy to get through it and I think when you supplement it with family, you can get through anything.

Beth:  I love that you just said, keep your mind engaged and your soul and your heart happy because I really truly feel like that's what I think of my different friend groups, whether they were from the Laurentian singers or people from my first year program, people I was in Admissions with working in as an ambassador with, people I studied abroad in London with, they all have different ways that they engaged by mind as well as by heart and by soul. Do you feel like it was the same thing for you between soccer and slew funk and all these different things? Do your friend groups, all come from different areas of campus? Or are they traditionally like, "Oh, I'm really close with my soccer friends."

Andy:  They're from every corner of campus, every different thing. We almost got a slew funk reunion, kind of like get together, but it ended up being, people were distributed too far away from each other. So maybe one day that'll happen during reunion or something, I don't think will sound as good as we used to.

Beth: What instrument do you play or did you sing? Or...

Andy:  I played the Alto sax and I... [crosstalk 00:19:31]

Amelia:  Oh nice!

Beth:  I'm also an Alto Sax

Andy:  [crosstalk 00:19:33] Yeah and the coolest thing we actually did as a band was we opened a Grace Potter when she to campus.

Amelia:  That's so cool.

Beth:  Yeah. That was in...

Andy:  2014. She graduated with me, she got an honorary degree. Yes. Talking about another great memory, that's right when Thrift Shop by Macklemore came out...

Amelia:  Oh gosh.

Andy:  ...and there was this awesome saxophone line in that song and I remember me and my buddy, Evan were in the closet of elite head warming up, playing that and making a harmony and all of a sudden, the band members from Grace Potter slowly started trickling in, adding to it and I was like, "this is unreal, this is the coolest thing that has ever happened to me in my life."

Beth:  Oh my God.

Andy:  And at that moment, it was almost like I want to drop going to school and just tour with these guys. I remember...

Beth:  Another Laurentian connection.

Andy:  Yeah, exactly and I remember telling that to my mom the night after and she's just like, "No."

Amelia:  This is not a question?

Beth:  Absolutely not.

Andy:  No, no, she didn't say anything else, but no and then change topic.

Amelia:  That's so funny. That's an amazing memory though. That's fantastic.

Beth:  That is pretty amazing. Have you ever been able to see her perform since?

Andy:  I Haven't. I wish I was able to see her, I've heard her, I mean her performance at St. Lawrence was amazing, but to be in a crowd with thousands of other people, I'm sure is just a completely different, awesome experience.

Beth:  Always a great experience, of course. Yeah.

Amelia:  And so, now that we're talking a little bit about your student experience and you clearly or involved in so many ways as a student, what made you choose St. Lawrence in the first place?

Andy:  Great question. St. Lawrence wasn't even on the radar for me initially, so in my senior year, I got selected for an All-Star game in our high school for recruiting purposes and coach Bob was there, coach Bob Durocher and he recruited me to come to St. Lawrence and a couple weeks later, he said, "Hey, just come up campus. Let me show you a round." And coach Bob, he pretty much spent half the day with me and my mom when we visited, show me every nook and cranny of the athletic facility. He knew everyone's name on campus, was introducing them to me. It was amazing and I remember I did my overnight there, the team was great, loved the campus, loved the environment, and it was within those 12 hours that I was sold that I felt like home and I didn't want to leave after we got back in the car to go back down to Albany.

Andy:  So coach Bob is the reason I went, the reason why I continue to stay engaged and he had such a huge influence on my life. Everything from, the importance of relationship to maintaining connections and just like day to day discipline on how to become successful. I'll give you a little tidbit on him. I remember my first day practicing with the team. We used to have these little belts that you put your training, like shirts, socks, whatever, and then you'd throw it in the basket and then was a gentleman who would wash and dry everything for all the sports team and coach would always get on us and say, "When you put your stuff in the wash, don't put it in inside out." And I thought about it and I was like, "That's weird." He particularly said this after games when our nice jerseys and everything, right.

Andy:  And I thought it was odd and so one day, when I was walking by the washer and dryer, I saw that some of the other teams did that and some of the folks in there had to spend all the time to reverse all the jerseys and to reverse all the shorts. So coach never explicitly said why he did it but I know why now and it was because you were making that person's life easier. They were doing something for you, so you didn't have to do laundry, you could do a bath and study or have fun with your friends. It's a seemingly small thing at scale can take up a lot of someone's time and that's time away from their family or things they love to do. So if you can take a second out of your day to make someone's life easier, you should like a hundred percent do it. So it's little lessons like that, that coach taught me over the years, it just stuck with.

Beth:  I love that kind of thing. That's exactly the same lessons that I hear more often than not the... I was at dinner with an alumni, a few years ago and I'll never forget them saying, "I will always judge somebody by how they treat the white staff. I don't care if they're the most powerful person in the room, the most powerful person in the room. If they aren't respecting the least powerful person in the room, then that's not somebody I want to do business with." And that kind of thing is always stuck with me too.

Andy:  Yeah, I hundred percent agree and I actually often tell folks that work for me as like, "The janitor is equally as important as you."

Beth:  Absolutely.

Andy:  And so I get this funny look, and I'll be like, "Because they see everything that happens in the office."

Amelia:  Oh, for sure. Yeah, I remember when I was still working for Laurentian engagement, that was really an important thing for us to keep in mind, especially know, given how many events, particularly those big ones, like reunion and homecoming, that those campus partners are what makes reunion run.

Andy:  And especially during COVID, there are all the folks who do maintenance or support or anything, or the unsung heroes in all of this, because they put a lot of stuff on the line to make sure that we could live our lives and we can host events and we can do things so super thankful. I think everyone, when I look at, doesn't matter what your title is or how many pieces of paper you have and what your name says, your title is next to it, everyone's equally important and plays a role in everything.

Beth:  Absolutely.

Amelia:  Just that importance of human decency.

Andy:  Yeah, totally.

Amelia:  It's not a hard thing to do.

Beth:  But yet it is for are some people. Thankfully it's not hard for Andy, that's what we appreciate and one of the reasons why we're interviewing you today. So I would love to hear a little bit more about what it means to be McCurdy-Sprague trustee. This is maybe something that maybe a lot of younger alumni don't know about. So do you want to talk little bit about what that position means on the board of trustees? And tell us a little bit about the experience that you've had so far.

Andy:  Yeah, you're supposed to be the voice of the young alumni or recent grads and help steer the future of the University with that perspective in mind because I was already doing, like you had mentioned earlier, things like Laurentian's residents, I came back and I gave a Ted talk a couple years ago, so I saw as the ultimate honor to say, "This is how you can cement your legacy and give back to the University." And I've only been to two meetings so far, but it's been absolutely phenomenal. You see the other side of how the University is run and you really get to see amazingly accomplished and talented people who are graduates putting their heart and soul into to solving some of the highest and largest challenges in academia right now, everything from handling finances to the strategic role of the University.

Andy:  Also, they played a really large role in shaping how the University handled COVID and making student were safe and so as a student, you never see what happens behind the curtains but now that I see it from the other perspective, I see that we're in nothing but good hands and I'm happy to give a different perspective and contribute to that.

Amelia:  What's been one of the, you've mentioned you've only been to two meetings so far, so you're fairly new in your 10 years of the trustee, but in that short time, what has been one of the most meaningful experiences that you've had?

Andy:  That is a great question. There's a trend right now in higher Ed where the total pool of high school students that are eligible or who intend to go to college, it's shrinking.

Amelia:  Right.

Andy:  And so it's becoming increasingly competitive to attract talent to go university and I think St. Lawrence is uniquely positioned in some of its rankings, for example, to say, "Hey, this is one of the strongest alumni networks in the country." Seeing the board coalesce around strategic things, as opposed to just dealing with it like every other university would just kind of say, "We'll punt this thing down the road until it really becomes a problem." I really appreciate the foresight and thought that gets put into saying, "How do we position the University for success?" Not just this year, next year, but the next decade, two decades, like century, right?

Amelia:  Yeah.

Beth:  That's a really important aspect there. I agree with you when I was a student, I had no idea of the kind of things that the University was thinking about, not just for the current students, but for the future students and I always appreciate now that I work for the University, how much at the core of it is always the thought process of putting the student experience first and we're thankful for the work you are willing to do as representing the young alumni and the board of trustees to make those decisions and forethoughts happen.

Andy:  Thank you. Appreciate it. Again, it's been an honor, probably the most honorable thing I've been able to do on behalf of the University since I've graduated.

Amelia:  For sure. I don't know if you've got other questions of Beth, I have one more that's come to mind but...

Beth:  Well, what I was thinking is we started off that we would ask every guest this and we haven't, but I think that I'm going to ask you this, Andy.

Amelia:  This might be my same question.

Beth:  Is it? Okay. Well, we were thinking having every guest answer this but I think that you're the perfect person to answer it, which is, if you had a million dollars to invest anywhere in St. Lawrence in any capacity, what would you do with that million dollars?

Andy:  Oh boy. Maybe I should caveat this by saying I am not representing the board of trustees when I say this.

Beth:  No, no probably a good call. That's a good Caveat. This is Andy as an individual alumnus.

Andy:  I think I'd invest it in an off campus, if not full, experience or subsidy for every student in the student body because I learned a lot of great things as a student in the classroom and I also learned a lot of great things when I was at the New York city semester in the real world and I think it's super valuable for every St. Lawrence students be able to connect the two. St. Lawrence attracts students from all walks of life, their families all have different amounts of resources that can be used to invest in those types of experiences and any equity we can introduce into that process, so that experience is attainable by anyone, I think is huge.

Amelia:  For sure. That's such an important part of the St. Lawrence experience that you've touched on, the people that I've encountered, whether they studied abroad in London like Beth did, or they participated in the Adirondacks semester or the New York city semester that there's just this thirst for knowledge that's come through and to see these new ways to grow in ways that you never expected or saw coming and every time I talk to people about those experiences, it just blows my mind, the quality of experience that they have.

Beth:  I always think of college and university is almost adulting with training wheels, right?

Amelia:  New marketing slogan.

Andy:  I say the same thing to people, yeah.

Beth:  Yeah, it's, you know where your meals are coming from, you know where your roof is, you know you have a very set schedule but you have some flexibility and free time, you're still responsible for a lot of things but a lot of things were also, especially at St. Lawrence where it's a residential campus we still kind of] cater to you when you go off campus and a few of those variables change and sometimes now you're in charge of budgeting for the rest of the semester of how far am I going to be able to take this stipend every week? What is it like to try to have to walk across the city? Or try to speak a different language and connect with different people who aren't a part of my set community? You take some of those variables out and that's where the quote unquote, real adulting begins and I think that's such a valuable experience for people.

Andy:  Talk about real adulting, so there's a couple aspects of that when I went down to New York. I remember, I probably should have done more research than I did at the time, but I knew we were staying on the upper east side, which is close to a really nice part of New York. I remember driving down there being super stoked, being like, "Oh, St. Lawrence, put us in this really nice brownstone. We're going to be in this awesome community." In all that, don't get me wrong, where we stayed was great. There was a facility called the 92Y, there were people from every country in the world there. It was so cool that just sit down in the communal kitchen and meet a whole bunch of people. I've met folks from Syria, from Afghanistan, from parts of Northern Europe and Asia, you never knew who you were going to meet.

Andy:  And it was all a transient population there too, so you were constantly meeting different people but it was certainly different because it was a one gender and a whole floor, there were probably 20 or 25 of rooms. Everyone shared one shower stall. There was a communal fridge where people weren't worried about keeping it clean and stuff, so it was different, right? It wasn't Dana anymore, it wasn't the pub anymore, it was closer to real life, right. At least there's one training wheel left on the bike and then the whole budgeting part of it too, I remember, as the Sam and I had just started dating before I did this New York city semester and like any kind of relationship that early on, things can be fragile if you're not around but she would looked me dead in the eye and said, "Andy, you have to do this."

Andy:  Because it's such an amazing opportunity, you wouldn't get anywhere else. You have to go. Which is one of the reasons why I knew she was going to be the one.

Amelia:  Sounds like a keeper.

Andy:  But I budgeted a lot of stuff while I was there and one of the big things was I wanted to take Sam out on an estate when she came down to visit me and when I worked the numbers out and how expensive New York city was, I figured that I had to go to the grocery store downstairs and I could only eat lettuce and tuna fish out of the packet for a couple weeks, so I could afford a date in New York city and so that's what I did and that was a really humbling experience that prepared me to be an entrepreneur. So you learn how to live on the shoestring budgets, so you can go do something. In this case, it was trying to convince this beautiful girl that I'm the one to stay with and now I'm hanging over her head now that [crosstalk 00:33:34]

Amelia:  Your story was cute right up until then Andy.

Andy:  Yeah, that's right. Every time I tell that story, she rolls her eyes and she goes, "Oh no, not this again."

Beth:  So now she'll get to listen to it on a podcast. Isn't that nice?

Andy:  Its cemented now. It is really.

Amelia:  Oh, that's so funny.

Beth:  Next month, we'll be talking with Sam to hear her side of things.

Amelia:  Well, I think that we couldn't have ended the conversation in a more charming place. So I, unless you have any final thoughts or questions for us, Andy.

Andy:  Yeah. First foremost, thanks for putting this all together. I know this production is a really big effort but I think it's great way to show people a more personal side of the University and showcase great people have graduated from this institution. I listen to some of the other ones, people are super impressive, super, super impressive. As I'd echo throughout the rest of the podcast, if there are any perspective students, parents, current students, parents, recent alumni who want to connect with somebody, get advice, learn about new industry, just say hi and make a new friend. Find me online and I'm happy to do it.

Beth:  Great. Can people find you on LinkedIn?

Andy:  Yeah, that's actually a great way to get a hold of me. I don't use other social media much anymore. LinkedIn is like my go-to thing.

Beth:  Perfect. Interested in connecting with Andy, you could do so on LinkedIn, Andy Chan is who you're looking for. Great person, great alumni and a wonderful representation of the young alumni on the board of trustees. Andy, thank you so much for joining us today and we are so excited to see all that you accomplish in the future.

Andy:  Thanks.

Amelia:  Thank you, Andy.

[Music Plays]

Beth:  Well, that was such a great conversation with Andy Chan. I'm so excited that we had the opportunity to chat with him a little bit. He really is so impressive. What did you think Amelia about his need and willingness to be connected to the St. Lawrence community?

Amelia:  You know, I think what really struck me was how Andy has this wonderful balance of valuing the Laurentian community on both a professional level and what it's done for him and his career and the way he gives back and works with current students and stays involved with the University, but also this deeply personal aspect as well. Obviously, he met his wife Sam at St. Lawrence and that's just a great story but also the amount of friends that clearly mean so much to both him and Sam and I think that, that really speaks to the heart of the Laurentian community that it's so much more than caring about your career or what you do with it or how you give back to the University but how it cares about who you are as a person and then supports the whole person.

Beth:  Yeah. I really think that he mitigates that how do you make the impact you want to make on the University while simultaneously understanding what the University's needs are? And he does that super well and we're so lucky to have him as a board of trustee member, a leader in our community and our students are so honestly have him as a resource. As he said, feel free to connect with him on LinkedIn and I'm sure that he would love to meet as many Laurentian that are willing to connect with him.

Amelia:  Absolutely. With that, we would love to wish every Laurentian out there, a very happy holiday season.

Beth:  Thank you so much and we will see you in 2022.

[Theme Music Plays]

Beth:  Scarlet & Brown Stories is edited and produced by Amanda Brewer, Megan Fry Dozier, Dennis Morreale, Beth Dixon and Amelia Jantzi.

Amelia:  Our music was written by Christopher Watts inspired by Eugene Wright, class of 49.

Beth:  Subscribe to Scarlet & Brown Stories on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and wherever you listen to podcasts.

Amelia:  If you have a story you'd like to submit to us, you can email us at connect@stlawu.edu.

[Music Fades]

 

[Theme Music]

Beth: Hello, everybody. I'm Beth Dixon, and welcome back to another edition of Scarlet & Brown Stories. I am of course joined by my co-host Amelia Jantzi. Amelia, how are you today?

Amelia: I'm so good. How are you, Beth?

Beth: I'm doing super well as well. This is such a fun time of year. We're starting to see the leaves really change. Of course, by the time this podcast comes out, they'll probably be on the ground.

Amelia: Certainly here in the North Country they will. I don't know about New York City, but-

Beth: I was just saying to my sister-in-law the other day, I was like, "You know, this is the first time I've looked out when I'm on the roof of my building and can see various different colors from the trees," which this is the only time of year I'll see something like that.

Amelia: Oh, yeah.

Beth: Because even spring, most of that stuff is on ground level. You don't see it from the roof. So this is kind of a cool time of year to be up on the roof, looking around at those trees changing. So I'm excited about that. You know what I'm also excited about is this interview with Hana Bushara, class of '21, that we are going to have a little bit later. She is a recent graduate, who is honestly, she's just amazing. She was an international student from Bermuda. She also has a wonderful background in music and global studies, and so she has a lot of wonderful perspectives about her St. Lawrence experience that I can't wait to hear a little bit more about.

Amelia: Yeah. And she's just so thoughtful and grounded, and I got tons out of this interview.

Beth: She is definitely going places. So I can't wait to keep up with her career, both in terms of globally thinking, and her strategic communications degree that she's pursuing right now at the London School of Economics. But I'm also really interested to see how she does with her music career, because she is a live musician.

Amelia: Before we jump into that, though, you mentioned that Hannah right now is in London-

Beth: Yes.

Amelia: ... and that reminded me, you studied abroad when you were at St. Lawrence in London, if I remember correctly.

Beth: I sure did. Yes. In 2008.

Amelia: There you go. And so it had me thinking about the study abroad options that St. Lawrence has, and how cool it is that St. Lawrence has eight signature programs in seven locations, including London.

Beth: Yup.

Amelia: So it has the London semester and a London FYP, which sounds super cool, not going to lie. And there's also a program in Kenya, and Spain, and the Adirondacks, and France. We have our sustainability semester, and of course, where you are, in beautiful New York City.

Beth: Yeah. New York.

Amelia: But yeah, and if I remember correctly, these programs all allow students to either have some hands-on work experience or independent research, that really combines that liberal arts perspective of study with future thinking, and sort of allowing students to pursue their passions as well as their future goals, and so that sounds pretty neat.

Beth: Yeah. It very much is. I remember having my work experience at a small fringe theater in London, and now I get to work with students who are pursuing an internship full time here in New York City. There's plenty of opportunities, like you said, for independent research, which would help either with maybe their senior capstone experiences, or potentially help inform on where they're going to go to grad school or what they're going to do in grad school, or what they're going to do in their first job after they graduate. So what a wonderful fun fact about the eight signature programs we have. Obviously we offer more international-

Amelia: Right.

Beth: ... and off-campus programs, but those are the ones that are owned and operated by St. Lawrence.

Amelia: Wow. Without further ado, let's turn it over to Hana, shall we?

Beth: We shall.

[Music Plays]

Beth: All right, everybody. We are here with Hana Bushara, class of 2021, and we are so excited to have such an amazing young alumna join us. We have a lot to talk about with Hana, and to hear not only about what she currently doing, but what her St. Lawrence experience was like and what her plans are moving forward. Hana, welcome to the Scarlet & Brown podcast.

Hana: Thank you so much for having me.

Beth: I'm so excited.

Amelia: You're welcome.

Beth: I'm joined by my co-host as always, Amelia Jantzi.

Amelia: Oh, hey there.

Beth: How are you doing?

Amelia: Oh, I'm so good. How are you?

Beth: I'm doing super well. So Hana, first thing is first. When people hear class of 2021, they're obviously going to be thinking, "Oh my goodness." What was your experience like at St. Lawrence, especially in the last couple of years, and how have you navigated graduating, and what are you up to now?

Hana: Well, I think each year of my St. Lawrence experience was very, very different. If there's one thing that COVID taught me, or being a university student in the context of COVID, the importance of community, and friendship, and togetherness, and it's kind of juxtaposed, because you'd think in the age of social distancing, you'd be further apart from people, but I think my senior year was one year that really instilled that value in me, and I felt most at home and closest to people and the SLU community during my senior year. So I'm very, I don't want to say I'm grateful for that circumstance, because I think a lot of people suffered and still continue to suffer, but in my personal experience, there are a lot of really beautiful things that came out of just being closer together and focusing a little bit more on those around me, and in turn, focusing on myself, to check in with myself to see how I was doing.

Hana: But my St. Lawrence experience is a bit of a rollercoaster, in the best of ways. And I learned a lot about myself, and I think it was interesting, because my journey into learning more of myself was informed by things inside the classroom and outside of the classroom.

Amelia: Sure.

Hana: I majored in global studies, and I minored in sociology and music, and those things really informed each other. I was really in involved with three really incredible departments on campus. Also, I'm from Bermuda. I forgot to say that-

Amelia: Oh, yes.

Hana: ... so I am also part of the international student community, and the international student community was my bedrock on campus. I am so grateful to be part of a community. We were just a constant exchange of value, and life, and experience. There was a lot of life concentrated into these past four years, but my academics really informed my passion for people and my love for communicating.

Hana: And so things that I learned in global studies, for example, why things work in the way that they do, how economic systems and cultural systems are in interaction with each other, how these things we deem as coincidence are not coincidence at all, but are the product of structural inequality, or just the economic or cultural conditions in which we are embedded. In the same way that I think we think of things as coincidence, I think understanding that coincidences don't exist as much as we think they do-

Amelia: Sure.

Hana: ... it also made space for the possibility of change, or it made me feel like I was able to be a change maker in the context of various things that I was experiencing and also witnessing in my life. That's a super long winded answer.

Beth: To be fair, I gave you the most general, "Tell us about your experience, and then also this and such." But I think that everything that you've said there, I think so many people can identify with. I know that I do.

Amelia: Yeah. I find it really interesting what you said about learning about community in a time of social isolation. And I think that that's a really profound lesson for all of us to learn. And so I'm just sort of curious, that community that you had, because you were mentioning to us earlier, before we started recording, that you are now in London. And so have you found ways to retain that community, even though you are a little bit further afield now?

Hana: It's definitely a little bit more difficult, and I have called a lot of my SLU friends while they're in class by accident. But yeah, I try my best to maintain connection with people, because I think of myself as a good friend, but I'm also horribly inconsistent, so I'm trying to be more intentional in the friendships that I create and also maintain. But yeah, I think the people that I met and encountered at St. Lawrence are genuinely golden people. I feel very lucky, because going to SLU for me was so unexpected, and I've told myself oftentimes in situations where I didn't expect to be in those places that wherever you go, it can be golden. You just have to do some digging. And SLU for me, at least people-wise, was a place where I didn't actually have to dig that much to find good people.

Beth: Wow. Yeah.

Hana: I was very lucky in various facets of my SLU experience, and we can go into this later, but through the various singing organizations I was a part of, and again, the international student community. I worked in admissions all four years of my St. Lawrence experience. So many interesting people and stories that I picked up along the way, and so now I carry a lot of that with me in London now. And it's a little bit harder because of the time difference, but the sentiment is very much still there, and I hold St. Lawrence very near and dear to my heart. I called my friend Nikita yesterday, and he walked me through campus, and it felt so bittersweet seeing the squirrels running around on campus.

Amelia: Oh, yeah.

Hana: And he brought me to the North Star Cafe, and-

Amelia: Aww.

Hana: ... I ended up talking to Chris Christian, who's one of the workers in the pub, who I love so much.

Amelia: Aww.

Hana: So yeah, I definitely am making an effort to maintain those relationships, because they helped and molded me so, so much.

Beth: I think that's a really interesting thing to say. I share so many similar experiences to you in so many ways. I studied abroad in London, so even though I didn't go to London post-graduation, I understand the trying to maintain your relationships with people back on campus while being abroad, specifically in London, which is funny. You and I were both Laurentian Singers in our respective times on campus, and both worked in admissions and such. So I can identify, and I know that there are many who have had similar experiences of engaging with these various different groups. There are some colleges where you go to college, and you find your one group of people, and that's all. That's the only people that you really interact with. And I love this idea that you're talking about with community, because I think one of the best things about the St. Lawrence community is that it's not just limited to one thing that you're engaged in. It kind of bleeds into all these other different facets of your experience, both while you're on campus, and then after you graduate.

Beth: So I know that you're just kind of in the beginning of your St. Lawrence journey, but it's only going to continue to get weirder and grow. You're going to be like, "Oh my gosh." I had coffee yesterday with an alum where we realized that like our roommates were best friends, but we never met on campus.

Hana: Yeah.

Beth: It's those kind of relationships that I think will be fascinating to continue to hear your stories.

Hana: For sure.

Beth: So one of the things that we know that you are a part of, like we just mentioned, was the Laurentian Singers, and you were very involved with music, and also this idea of building a community. And obviously those that are involved in sports, or music, or these organizations that require a lot of teamwork and coming together have their own bits of community involved with it. Can you speak a little bit to why being a part of all the various music groups potentially helped you form these communities? Was there something about being in the Laurentian Singers or any of your other music groups that you think really informed how you made bonds on campus?

Hana: Sure. I mean, I'm a big metaphor gal. I think I'm going to write my dissertation for my master's on organizational metaphors, but I think being a part of Laurentian Singers in itself served a purpose, which I will speak to, but also in a metaphorical sense. The idea that vocal parts do not exist in isolation, and in order to actualize the beauty of a song in a choir, you have to work together, and you have to carefully blend a song. It's not all about you. It's not all about the Altos. I mean, it's never all about the Altos.

Amelia: Exactly. Exactly.

Beth: It never is. [crosstalk 00:12:30].

Hana: But you know what I mean? In order for a song to sound beautiful in the context of a choir, you really do have to work together and recognize that each part serves a purpose. And I think being in Laurentian Singers and exercising that metaphor actively, and then thinking about what that meant for me in the context of my life, when at times I felt very selfish in my existence, being like, "Oh my god. The weight of the world is on my shoulders. I'm consuming my existence, and everything is toppling over." I had to take a step back and be like, "I'm one vocal part. The picture is much, much bigger." And then I guess taking away the metaphor, and actually thinking about my time in Laurentian Singers, it was in many ways my lifeline, being in a choir and hearing voices blend together. And again, just realizing that you are a very small part of a much bigger piece.

Hana: There were times where I just did not want to go to class, or I did not want to do anything, and then I'd go to Laurentian Singers reluctantly, and then after rehearsal feel 100% uplifted. And I'm like, "This is what I'm doing this for." Or when we'd strike a chord in rehearsal and I'm like, "This is what life is." And we'd get so frustrated at Barry, who's our vocal director, for making us do things over and over again.

Beth: Yup.

Hana: But by senior year, I recognized why. He's like, "If you want to reap the beauty of a song, you have to do it justice." And I've taken that lesson with me in various facets of my life. If you want to reap the benefits of something, or if you want to truly actualize the beauty of something, you have to give it your all, and you have to pay it its respect where respect is due. And so when he'd tell us that our dynamics are horrible, I'd be like, "Barry, we've done it five times." But then when we'd get the dynamics right, I'm like, "I understand why he's made us do it again."

Hana: So I think being in a group of equally disciplined people that love music just as much as I do was the most beautiful thing, because music for me is a very, very personal thing. But to be able to share that in a group of people, and to have it personally affect me, but personally affect me in the company of so many other people, and to share that with other people, was so beautiful.

Hana: And then I was also part of SLU Funk. I was a vocalist for SLU Funk, and I was the gospel choir vocalist my senior year. And I also sang in Singing Sinners for my freshman and sophomore years, so I dabbled in a lot of different musical scenes on campus, which yeah. Yeah. It was amazing.

Amelia: I so love what you say about singing in a group of people, and how that's a metaphor for community and life, and a shared experience. Because creating art with your voice together is a really profound, intimate experience. It's a really beautiful thing. I think that that's such a beautiful picture of how life and community should be, of sort of uplifting and supporting each other, and together producing something more beautiful than we can on our own.

Beth: Yeah. I share a lot of your sentiments, that there would be times where I didn't want to go to rehearsal, and then I left and I felt rejuvenated, or I felt like, "Okay, this was worth it." Or, "Okay, I'm back. Let me go to dinner now, and I'm good, and we're refreshed for the rest of the day." But I can't imagine, how difficult was it during the pandemic when some of this was stripped away from you? And what was it like to try to perform music with people, with the COVID restrictions?

Hana: I mean, we were actually quite lucky in that we were able to do socially distanced rehearsals, and so compared to a lot of people on campus who didn't get to do the things that they loved, I felt very, very lucky to engage with this activity that I needed. And I'm so glad that that need was fulfilled, because I don't know what I would have done if I didn't have music on campus. And I'm so grateful for Larry Boyette and all of the music department, and Barry Torres, for pushing to make sure that music was prioritized on campus. Because it could have easily been something that if they didn't try to make it happen, it wouldn't have happened. But I think a lot of people recognized the importance of the togetherness fostered through music.

Beth: You know what I'm most excited for you, and I know this is slightly in the future here, I am so excited for you, even if you can't come back to experience this this time, I can't wait for you to come back and experience a Laurentian Singers reunion-

Hana: Oh, I can't wait.

Beth: ... where you see make music with people from all generations. I've sat next to Barbara Phillips, who is this wonderful woman from the class of, I believe, 1956 or 1958, and she and I are the altos that just get in trouble with Barry the entire rehearsal. There's 60 wonderful people singing, and she and I are poking each other, and having fun, and laughing. But it's that really true sense where it's like an equalizer, where everyone's just there on the same page, and there to have fun. And for those that don't know, this year, they will be celebrating the 75th reunion of the Laurentian Singers, which technically should have been this past year, but we'll be celebrating this coming year. But I can't wait for you to meet some of these Laurentians throughout various different eras of the Singers, and have those kind of bonds as well.

Hana: I'm very, very much looking forward to a reunion. But also it's so beautiful to me, because being in a choir was ever on my radar coming into college.

Amelia: Oh, interesting.

Hana: I had never done choral singing before. It was my freshman year, they did a dorm storm, where they were singing, I think it was Can't Help Falling in Love.

Amelia: Aww.

Hana: And they knocked on my door. I was like, "What is going on?" But then I decided to join-

Beth: Like, "Who are these choir nerds?"

Hana: I literally, I was like, "I am not joining this nerd choir." But I tried it out, and also my freshman year coming into St. Lawrence, I really wanted to be on the soccer team. I grew up playing soccer, and it was, I guess, a pipe dream for me, because I did make the team. But it's also crazy how much this thing that I thought was going to be my SLU trajectory, being on a sports team, dedicating my time to practice or whatever, it ended up being 10 plus hours of singing per week, which is something that ... I had a guitar in my room, and I was fiddling with writing songs, but I'd never sung in a disciplined way. And that was really unattractive to me at first, because I was like, "Singing's supposed to be fun. I don't want it to become this commitment thing."

Hana: But the more I was learning in Laurentian Singers, the more it informed my own music making, and like I said, I also picked up a music minor in the end. I thought the context of music in an academic sense, that was also super unattractive to me. I was like, "I don't want to learn theory, because I want to be an organic, natural singer who on their Wikipedia page, it says they were self-taught or whatever." But again, in the same way I love understanding things work in sociology and through my global studies career, learning theory, or learning music history informed the way that I approached making music. It helped me to understand more about myself when I gained more vocabulary to use so that I could describe what was happening in my life instrumentally and through my words.

Beth: Did you often find that, especially being an international student and having the international student community with you, that music and global studies, in all these wonderful ways, were a means of finding the words, of finding the connections, in order to connect with people? And just to take a step back too, I'd love for you to speak to this. I think that there's always a misconception that, "Oh, because students are international, they always have something in common." You're talking about people from all different corners of the world, who have very different positionalities and perspectives, and yet come together in this really tight-knit community. So I guess what I'm trying to ask is, do you find that your work in global studies and in music really helped you to better connect with not only the international student community, but the other students on campus?

Hana: To a certain degree, yeah. Like in global studies, you have the two sides of it, which is I guess the political economic side, which is learning how things work, why, when, who gets what, why, when, where, how? And then you have the cultural studies side, which is looking at global systems and phenomena from a critical perspective. So again, having the vocabulary to understand why things function in the way that they do, it definitely gave me more vocabulary to engage with these incredible people that I was a part of the same community with.

Beth: And probably more context too, right?

Hana: Yeah.

Beth: So you see the same thing, where I read about something, and then I'm like, "Oh, this is really interesting." It's something I've never had to experience or think about before, and then all of a sudden, I feel like I better understand somebody who has this context. Not that I will fully ever understand, but I have a better understanding of the context of maybe why they have a certain opinion, or the manners in which they speak.

Hana: Yeah. I think also being confronted with difference, interacting with people from various cultural economic backgrounds, and it's not only specific to the international student community-

Beth: Of course.

Hana: ... but I think doing global studies in sociology, it provided me the openness and the willingness to engage and to learn from people of difference, recognizing myself as a person of difference as well. We all have our unique backgrounds and perspectives, and I think at the heart of global studies is gaining an openness and a curiosity for those things. So I'm grateful for those disciplines for instilling me with the confidence and the desire to be like, "Yeah, this is what living is supposed to be like. You're not supposed to be an island. You have these wonderful people around you. Go learn about them, and they can learn from you as well."

Beth: Amazing.

Amelia: Well, it's clear that music was such a key part of your experience at St. Lawrence, and in your understanding of the world too, of sort of that song of life. And so I'm curious, what role is music playing in your life today now that you are no longer at St. Lawrence?

Hana: I mean, it plays a huge role. It's weird to call myself a musician, because music for me is a medium through which I can express myself and kind of grapple with things that I don't really understand that I want to understand, but I'm not a full-time musician right now. I'm doing a full-time master's, so I'm a part-time musician. I'm studying strategic communications at the London School of Economics, so for me, music is an opportunity for me to decompress and to think about the things that I'm learning in class right now. But also personally, if there's something happening in my life, I let music be the space where I reflect on those things.

Hana: So what does music mean for me right now? It is still the safe, warm blanket that it has always been, but I have more opportunity now to share that with people, because I get to play on bigger stages, and I'm gaining a little bit of a larger following at the moment. And I say a warm blanket. I should take that back, because I think music for me is interesting, because it's not always a nice thing to engage with, but at this point it's just a necessary thing. I need it.

Beth: It's like air.

Hana: It's like air. Exactly.

Beth: Sometimes your lungs are on fire from breathing and such, and other times you need to take those deep breaths in order to calm yourself down. And I totally identify with the frustration of what it could be to be a musician, and I want to say something. You said you don't really like to maybe call yourself a musician, but I think everything that you said is exactly what a musician is. It doesn't mean that you are a quote-unquote professional or whatever, but I do think that a musician is somebody who needs music in order to make sense of the world, who uses music in order to make sense of the world, and their selves, and their emotions, and their connections. So in that way, I say, "No, you are a perfect definition of a musician."

Hana: Thank you, Beth. Thank you, Beth.

Beth: Of course. So obviously you did a little bit of songwriting when you were at St. Lawrence. And I know that you continue to write a lot of songs. Where does your inspiration for writing songs come from?

Hana: It comes from all over the place. Honestly, again, it's people. It's me living life, figuring out how to live life. Once I have lived life, what do I think about the life that I have been living? So it's me forward thinking, it's me backwardly looking. But my music, for the most part, I'd categorize it as mostly observational, and that's why I'm so influenced by folk music, because of its storytelling capacities. So I'm not a folk singer, but I love telling stories and listening to stories. And when you have so much life concentrated into four years, in this thing that we call this SLU bubble, or the St. Lawrence experience, there's obviously a lot of stories that will come out of that. And so I had a really wonderful opportunity to reflect on those things as I was experiencing them at St. Lawrence.

Hana: So I was quite prolific during my St. Lawrence experience, because there were just so many things to say. And in those moments where I had writer's block, it was, I think, my brain letting things marinate a little bit, because my senior year I wrote so many songs, things that I didn't know I had the capacity to say, but then after I wrote them, I was like, "How? How did you know?" But yeah, again, it's just meeting people, embracing those people, embracing those experiences, and then thinking of something or having something to say in response to them.

Amelia: Do you have any sort of musical influences, or other musicians that have influenced your style or your process over the years?

Hana: Yeah. I could list famous singers, but for the purposes of this, I think it's important to recognize musicians at St. Lawrence, because there's so many like famous people I could point to, but there's also so many incredibly talented people at SLU that I was like, "Wow, I get to go to school with you. And we're not in a music school, but this is so cool." Nikita Krakhofer, who is my dear friend. We actually made a song together. Harlow Anderson, who I think is one of the most talented people in the world. We also made a song together. Liv Hart, Amina Tasilla, Rahel Midexa, Larry Boyette, Graham Branch, Zach Effman, all of these people that I got to play music with while I was at St. Lawrence who made a lasting impact on what music means to me, and also just in my heart in general. And I thought it was really cool to have such talent at a school that isn't a music school. To have people as dedicated, if not more dedicated and disciplined than I was. It was really inspiring.

Beth: Before I came to St. Lawrence. I mean, my whole goal when I went to St. Lawrence was I did aim to be the choir nerd. I said, "I'm going to be in Laurentian Singers. That's one of the reasons why I want to go to St. Lawrence." And as a part of my accepted students packet, because they knew who I was and they knew music was part of my jam, they gave me, I think it was a student's senior project, but it very well could have been some research that music faculty were doing in collaboration with a student, but it was the history of music at St. Lawrence, and how music is an important part of the history of St. Lawrence.

Beth: And I don't have it anymore, because I've since moved like 15 times, but I kept it for a little while because it was always interesting to look back and see how exactly what you're trying to say, is that St Lawrence is not a conservatory. It's not a school that you have to audition to be a music major. You can declare it, and you're still going to get a liberal arts approach to music. So you're not just going to have to take a performance track or a music theory track, but you're going to learn about music of the world. You're going to learn about cultural and historical aspects of music. You're going to learn music theory. You're going to ... I took a class in music video with David Henderson.

Beth: I mean, there's many various different types of things that you learn with music, and you've become so overwhelmed with how much talent, and knowledge, and life experience in music there is at St. Lawrence with the people around you. And I know that there's plenty of people who could say the same for fine arts, or for performance and communication arts, or for English, or for geology, or whatever the case might be. And I think when you find your niche, you sometimes get blown away at the minds and the talent that are around you.

Hana: I wholeheartedly agree.

Beth: So we've been talking a lot about music here, Hana, and it would behoove us to ask if you would feel comfortable at all potentially sharing something that you have either written about St. Lawrence, or from St. Lawrence, or something that you said, "I was on SLU's campus when I wrote this." But we would love to hear a chorus or two of any of your songs if you're interested in sharing them.

Hana: Sure. I don't know how good the sound quality is going to be.

Beth: You know, we had you perform for the Laurentian Celebration. So any people were blown away by your talent, had such a good time, but the quality was really good. It really was, over a Zoom call. It was great.

Amelia: You were nervous. I won't lie, but it worked out really well.

Beth: It was awesome.

Hana: Okay. So I wrote this song in between my first year and sophomore year. It's a song that I wrote called Seeds, and I watched an interview of a musician. I really love who said, "Struggle is a seed." And so I wanted to extend that by saying, "If struggle is a seed, we must plant that seed and see what comes of it." I was going through a bit of a difficult time, and now the song has become quite the mantra for me. So I sing it to myself, and I hope you enjoy. I'll just sing a little bit.

Hana: (singing)

Hana: Yeah.

Amelia: Fantastic.

Beth: Yay!

Amelia: Thank you so much. That was beautiful.

Beth: I remember you performing that, and for a good week after that, I was going, (singing), to myself.

Amelia: It's great.

Hana: Thank you.

Beth: It's fantastic. Thank you so much for sharing that.

Hana: Of course.

Beth: After hearing everything that you've said about how you kind of process your feelings about life and such, you can really hear and see that in your songwriting. So thankful to have that.

Amelia: Yeah. There's just such a wisdom in it. I think that there's so much insight that you showed at that time in your life, and I think that that's a message that I'm like, "Oh, that really touches me."

Hana: I appreciate that.

Amelia: And I think that that's the importance of this kind of storytelling, and this sharing human experience through music that's both deeply personal and unique to each person, but yet touches on a theme that is universal as well. And so it was beautiful

Hana: Oh, thank you for listening. You know, music, I hold it as such a near and dear thing to my heart, because honestly, most of the time I feel very, very in my head, and I overthink so much, and it's so consuming. And when I'm writing these intricate stories, it's like putting my overthinking to work, and it turns it into such a refreshing thing. So that's one of the reasons why music is so important to me, because it makes me feel most like myself in a way that doesn't feel like a problem. And so I feel so blessed to have music, and it feels me with such joy when I see people doing the things that they love, and doing things that make them feel like them.

Amelia: Sure.

Hana: And I'm glad to have tapped into that so early into my life. And my hope is that everybody who I encounter has that thing, because it truly means the world to me and more.

Beth: You know, it's becoming so apparent to me why you have chosen to study strategic communications.

Amelia: Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

Beth: So just in the interest of hearing a little bit more about what your career goals and such are, why the London School of Economics, why strategic ... I mean, I think we've been able to figure out, "Okay, well, strategic communications, this is the most strategic communicator I've ever come across in my life, talking about Hana Bushara." But what in particular attracted you to this grad program?

Hana: Honestly, my senior year, I took two classes with Dr. Steven Barnard that were about media and culture and the digital age, and then another one was called media and power. And I was just so fascinated by how modes of communication are impacted by shifting technologies, and emergent technologies, and understanding how the specificities of culture create these very specific constraints that impact the ways in which we communicate, and having a more vast understanding of these bridges and chasms of communication can help you to devise new ways of thinking about how to effectively communicate with people within an organization or on a national level.

Hana: In my case, coming from a small place like Bermuda, I have been blessed to experience the power of community and the power of proximity, but I also think oftentimes that proximity is taken for granted, and I think Bermudians are such interesting people with such illustrious stories to share, and we don't always have the platforms to share those stories because of the industries that we've prioritized on the island.

Hana: And so my goal, and I don't know how I'm going to practically make this happen, but I'd love to work for the Ministry of Community and Cultural Affairs in some capacity or the Bermuda Tourism Authority, but in a way that is more inwardly looking than it is outwardly looking. I'd love for tourism in Bermuda you to serve the purpose of, yes, attracting visitors to the island, but also in a way that serves Bermudian people, so we can showcase who we are. Because you hear, there's so many hilarious and wildly intelligent people that I've encountered over the dinner table, like aunties and uncles, but these things aren't part of the larger Bermudian narrative. And it may be because of things like, we just don't understand the power of communication, or we don't understand how economic conditions are impacting this in this industry, and thus making us make these organizational or cultural decisions. And so I thought a necessary next step for me was to learn more and to engage more with theory so that I can then put it to practice when I go back home, which will hopefully be sometime soon.

Amelia: Fantastic. Amazing.

Beth: That sounds like Bermuda is going to be very lucky to have someone who is looking out to make some significant changes in the best of ways, in a way that celebrates the island, its people, its history, and its culture. So that's really exciting to know. How can the SLU community support you in your goals, whether it be through music, or through your graduate program and beyond?

Hana: Honestly, St. Lawrence has supported me so much already. So I just want to say a big shout out to everyone who has helped me along the way. It has not gone unnoticed or un-thanked. I still have some thank you letters to send, actually. So stay tuned for those. But yeah, I've felt very supported already. If anything, if you have friends, family, music lovers in London that love to see live music, come support me by coming to one of my gigs. I don't really have anything on platforms yet, just because of certain philosophies that I have about streaming platforms, but for the most part, live music is where it's at for me.

Amelia: Sure. Fantastic.

Hana: I also just love talking to people. If there's a story that you'd love to share with me, I hope that I can share one in return, but again, I've been so supported and blessed by the St. Lawrence community. So I'm just grateful that you've given me the space and time to share a little bit about myself.

Beth: We're so thankful you came and joined us.

Amelia: This has been really quite a powerful and touching story. And we are so lucky to have you be a part of the Laurentian community, and to be, I think, really changing the world in the way that you think about things, and through this gift of music. So thank you.

Beth: Absolutely. We always love people who are empathetic communicators, and you clearly are one of them. And I can't wait to see all that you achieve in the world and keep up with it, but thank you so much, Hana, for joining us, and we're so excited to see what you do next.

Hana: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Amelia: Bye, Hana.

Hana: Bye.

[Music Plays]

Amelia: Well, everybody, there you have it. And speaking of, "There you have it," I think that almost every single episode, no matter which one of us is concluding things, that's how we end.

Beth: "Well, there you have it."

Amelia: "Well, there you have it." So be on the look out. Listen for that. That's how you know things are wrapping up.

Beth: Yeah. That's how you know, besides the many times that we say goodbye to our guests a few seconds before. When you hear that phrase, "Well there you have it, you know it's done."

Amelia: It's done. Anyway, so now that we are officially in the conclusion, what do you think?

Beth: Oh my goodness. I had such a good time talking with Hannah. I had a lot of very similar experiences as somebody who ... Well, I studied abroad in London, and she's currently there, but mostly coming from the Laurentian Singers. Anybody who's had that experience, I'm sure it's similar to people who have been on different athletic teams, or in clubs and organizations that meet as often as Laurentians do, but that kind of commitment, that teamwork, the individual gain that you get from it as well is really just a highlight, and I was so excited to hear her perspective, especially having been through a pandemic as a student, to see, "Did that change at all?" It seems like it really didn't. They actually did a lot of really great strides to make sure that music was happening even in the middle of COVID.

Amelia: You know, the love that she has for the community, and her importance that she puts on giving back to the world, I'm just really excited to see where she goes and what she does.

Beth: I'm really excited too. The strategic communication degree, I was like, I couldn't think of anybody else who would be more perfectly suited for that kind of program. Based off of the very limited interactions I've had with her, it just screams that she's meant for this kind of work in her life. So I'm excited to see all that she accomplishes, and how the Laurentian community will continue to uplift her.

Amelia: For sure.

Beth: So once again, thank you all so much for listening on in to yet another episode of Scarlet & Brown Stories, and the next episode won't drop until December, so we are super thankful for you all, and we want to wish you all a happy Thanksgiving.

Amelia: Thanks for listening.

[Theme Music Plays]

Beth: Scarlet & Brown stories is edited and produced by Amanda Brewer, Megan Fry-Dozier, Dennis Morreale, Beth Dixon, and Amelia Jantzi.

Amelia: Our music was written by Christopher Watts, inspired by Eugene Wright, class of '49.

Beth: Subscribe to Scarlet & Brown Stories on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and wherever you listen to podcasts.

Amelia: If you have a story you'd like to submit to us, you can email us at connect@stlawu.edu.

[Music Fades]

[Theme Music]

Amelia:  Hi, everybody. Welcome to another episode of Scarlet & Brown Stories. This is your host, Amelia Jantzi, with my lovely co-host, Beth Dixon. We are so excited to show you this interview with Paul Doty, our special collections and archives librarian, and Paul Haggett, the archivist's assistant.

Beth:  I'm so excited to show this interview. We're going to affectionately dub this episode the Paulcast. Paul Haggett and Paul Doty are two just incredible staff members that we have on campus. They have a wealth of knowledge about St. Lawrence and its history. They got me thinking about some of the facts I used to say when I was an admissions ambassador and tour guide at St. Lawrence. One of them that they didn't talk about to a certain extent that I wanted to just drop this little factoid about was that the Brewer Bookstore actually used to be the gymnasium.

Amelia:  Oh, really?

Beth:  Yeah. In the first floor, the wood that is used on the ground, most of that is the wood from the basketball court.

Amelia:  Really?

Beth:  Yeah.

Amelia:  Oh, that's so fun.

Beth:  The crowd would watch from above on the second floor. The game would be played on the first floor and they would all watch from the second floor. I've had a few older alumni tell me that it was not uncommon for them to, it's wintertime, maybe drape their wet boots over the opposing team's bench and make them drip on the opposing team.

Amelia:  Well, that's not our most welcoming habit.

Beth:  We don't encourage that nowadays, but I will say this is quite amusing to think about way back in the day.

Amelia:  Very true.

Beth:  But I'm excited to get to this interview. They had so many wonderful nuggets of information and chatted a little bit more about what special collections and archives are. Let's kick it on over to our interview with Paul Haggett and Paul Doty.

[Music Plays]

Paul Haggett:  This will be edited for content and brevity and-

Beth:  It will.

Amelia:  Yeah, it will.

Paul Haggett:  ... vulgarity and so forth.

Beth:  We're going to keep the vulgarity in there because that's... No, I'm just kidding. No, of course we'll edit it down. We'll make it nice and fun, hopefully. [inaudible 00:02:31].

Amelia:  Do you guys have any other questions before we jump in?

Paul Haggett:  This is audio only. I'm liking that because I have a radio background, so I know i have a face for radio.

Beth:  [laughter] Oh my goodness!

Amelia:  There we go.

[Music Plays]

Beth:  All right, we are here with Paul Doty and Paul Haggett. We are very excited to chat with them a little bit about not only how they interact with the St. Lawrence community, but also to learn a little bit about special collections, which is the area of the ODY Library they work in and have worked with students, other faculty, staff members and greater Laurentian community members. Paul and Paul, welcome on into the Scarlet & Brown Stories podcast. How are you doing today?

Paul Haggett:  Oh, I'm doing great. Thanks for having us.

Beth:  Of course, I'm sitting here with Amelia Jantzi as always. Paul Doty, how are you doing today?

Paul Doty:  Good. Thanks, Beth.

Amelia:  Well, we'd love to get things started with just a little bit about you both, your background, how you came to St. Lawrence. What are those top things that our listeners need to know about both of you?

Paul Haggett:  Go ahead, Paul. You're the old timer.

Paul Doty:  Well, I have been at St. Lawrence for 23 years working in various capacities in the library. I have been in my current position for only about three years and actually have none of the prerequisite qualifications [laughter].

Paul Doty:  My moving into this position was very much a late middle age reinvention at a point in my life where I was really hoping for some sort of dramatic change just as one way to get from Monday to Friday. This position became open and it worked out that I could step into it. So my holding this position and doing this particular work has been as much a learning experience for me as anything else.

Beth:  See, I think that's really important to hear about because I think a lot of students in particular, but even young alumni feel like, "I need to know what I'm going to do for the rest of my life as soon as I graduate." We so often reinvent ourselves, whether it be through the various different kinds of work that we do or through the various different kinds of activities that we're involved in throughout our lives and our hobbies and such. I think that that's really important to hear.

Paul Doty:  As a matter of fact, that's one thing I think St. Lawrence is very good for, particularly for faculty, is opportunities to reinvent yourself.

Beth:  Absolutely.

Paul Doty:  I've taught a number of courses in the first-year program, for example on the history of internet, the history of canoes, et cetera, which is then a way to really reconsider some sort of topic for the first time or reconsider a topic anew, which of course is very intellectually exciting.

Amelia:  What about you, Paul Haggett? We'll switch it to the other Paul.

Paul Haggett:  Well, it just came to me that Paul and I have a similarity in that I have no training whatsoever as an assistant to an archivist. I started out about 14 years ago at St. Lawrence working with Beth, actually, in the book store.

Beth:  Yes, I remember.

Paul Haggett:  Basically hired as the night supervisor at the book store, one of two, and worked at the bookstore for about two and a half years. During the late 2000s when some changes were happening in employment levels and so forth as a result of the recession, my position at the bookstore was downsized to part time. I was able to come over here at that time in fall of 2010 when Mark McMurray was the archivist and director of special collections. He took me on and agreed to work with me and bring me along and show me the ropes and teach me all of the ins and outs of the wealth of information that we have here, diversity of information that we have here, and been here ever since and absolutely love it.

Amelia:  Well, I think it'd be really interesting for you both to just really briefly tell us what is an average day working in special collections. What does that mean?

Paul Doty:  Are you going to make me go first again?

Paul Haggett:  I'll make you go first because I'd love to know what your day is like.

Paul Doty:  Well, to a certain extent, your question's a little bit of a loaded one insofar as the pandemic has really disrupted our operations. It's a little bit like the restaurant whose business model is based on having people in. The normal day does take one getting into one's memory a little bit.

Paul Doty:  To a great or lesser extent, I would summarize by saying that a normal day, as with many elements of the library, is helping students with their assignments and helping faculty with research interests that happen to be about special collections, that touch on our special collection. We also do a great bit of work, and actually Paul Haggett does a lion's share of this work, interacting with various offices around campus who want information of the archive, information about the university, about personalities in the university, periods of time, buildings, et cetera. And again, Paul does a lot of truly outstanding work with those folks on getting them the information they need and then very often, for example, complementary to that, digital images of materials.

Paul Doty:  As I mentioned, I'm learning the job so I have been, in a variety of context, researching a lot of the collection and coming to understand what are the various component pieces of special collections and to what extent they cohere into a whole. And also in my case, it was coming to grips with things like understanding what is the study of bibliography. In other words, what does it mean to study the book as object and then turn around and talk to a class about this? Why is it significant to think about this first edition, who printed it and how it was printed and questions like that.

Paul Haggett:  I guess I would piggyback on what Paul Doty has said to the third branch of that would be doing much the same with members of the greater Laurentian community, as you guys have termed it, as well as outside researchers that find a reference to a holding that we have in our special collections that they need for either their personal research or their professional work or things of that nature. Whereas Paul, as essentially a faculty member, is much more engaged with working with students, I would certainly work with students in a supportive role to that as well as individually and students that we may have working actually in the department as well. But my role would be a point of first contact with the majority with the outside researchers that are looking for information from our collections.

Amelia:  I can imagine that you get all kinds of very niche requests in terms of research. I'm just really curious, what is one of the most unexpected or one of those questions that really stuck with you in those requests that have come to you both?

Paul Haggett:  I guess a couple come to mind for me. It's not so much the specificity of what was requested. Our flagship manuscript collection are the papers of Owen D Young, who was obviously the namesake of the library, a titan of industry in the early 20th century, St. Lawrence University trustee, a diplomat, all these various crowds that he ran with. On a couple of occasions, researchers, in one case from Japan and another case somebody from Australia, contacted us. This was pre-COVID. They actually came to Canton, New York. In the case of the Japanese researchers, they were here for a week.

Amelia:  Oh, wow.

Paul Haggett:  I remember their particular research had to do with Owen D Young's work in the Radio Corporation of America. Just understanding that we have some resources that people from all corners of the world may find vital to their research. We had another researcher just recently who was making every attempt that he could to dodge the pandemic and actually make a personal appearance to come here because we had this one issue of a certain 19th century newspaper, and moved heaven and earth to allow him to come and spend a couple of hours with this periodical that he desperately needed for his professional research.

Paul Doty:  It was an abolitionist newspaper called Cry Freedom. Indeed, we owned the only volume of any library in the United States, apparently. I have a smallish Owen D Young story, too. I was contacted by a gentleman from Buffalo who was writing a multiple-volume bibliography of Arthur Conan Doyle. What he wanted was the provenance on a manuscript that Doyle wrote that Owen D Young owned at one point in time. Owen D Young was one of the most celebrated book collectors in his day. He had an absolutely wonderful collection of books, many very rare editions of authors such as Edgar Allen Poe and other major authors. It's now part of the Berg Collection, New York Public Library.

Paul Doty:  But he needed to know where Young acquired this particular manuscript, so I went through box after box after box of the papers we have on Owen D Young book collection, which again was for me, my particular circumstance, a very useful exercise in getting to know that part of the collection and truly understand what a bibliophile Owen D Young was. I found what the gentleman was looking for.

Beth:  Wow.

Paul Doty:  He had bought it somewhere in Cincinnati and there was the receipt. I could confirm not only where he bought it, but when.

Beth:  So you had the receipt as well?

Paul Doty:  He had the receipt for the particular manuscript. The gentleman from Buffalo was elated. He said, "I thought you would just give me a hint. Gave me the whole banquet." [crosstalk 00:13:06].

Beth:  That's amazing.

Paul Haggett:  It's always a thrill when you're set out on a quest like that from somebody from the outside our somebody from the administrative offices or even... It doesn't matter who it is. If you're looking for something like this receipt buried in the Owen D Young papers somewhere, it's not like you can go to our finding aid and say, "Okay, receipts." It doesn't say where the receipt is. You're pawing through boxes. When you find something like that, it really is a thrill.

Beth:  I thought it was fun when you would find, "Oh, here's a dollar in a coat that I had three years ago," that kind of thing. But this brings it to a whole other level.

Paul Haggett:  Oh, I remember the last time I wore that.

Amelia:  This is a real treasure hunt.

Beth:  Or when you find the receipts there and you just throw them away. Now, I'm just going to have to keep them hidden in all of my things just in case it's-

Amelia:  Some day.

Beth:  ... of significance someday.

Paul Haggett:  Eventually, both of y'all's personnel files may end up here.

Beth:  Ooh.

Amelia:  We got to get more interesting, Beth.

Beth:  Okay, well I'll try. I'll try.

Beth:  Well, one of the things that you mentioned was you have people from all corners of the world that are coming and asking for things in your special collections. Do you have a lot of alumni that reach out and ask about things about St. Lawrence for the archives in special collections, or is there a way, if people are interested in potentially working with you, is there a way for them to reach out to you?

Paul Haggett:  Well, yes and yes.

Beth:  Great.

Paul Haggett:  I think probably because I've been here longer, I tend to be the first point of contact for a lot of people that do reach out and on any number of occasions. I think probably the top reason for alumni that have reached out, the reason they've done so, has to do with athletics. Someone was on a sports team or one of their teammates went on to become a coach somewhere and they wanted a picture of them or get some background information on what their undergraduate athletic career was like here in St. Lawrence. That type of thing has often happened. There are lots of other examples, too.

Paul Haggett:  The short answer is if you want to find out any of that information, the easiest thing to do is just to send either Paul Doty or myself an email. It's the preferred way because then we would have a direct line to you to get whatever information you're looking for in your hands as quickly as possible through return email.

Beth:  One of the things that we were talking about as we prepared for this was oh, there have been buildings like Fisher Hall that we know burned down. Some people don't even know about that. But were there things about the university that you've learned since taking on these roles and your office?

Paul Doty:  Well actually, Beth, as I look out into the reading room, we have a display on our Milburn collection of [inaudible 00:18:24]. That is to say, and/of pertaining to Nathaniel Hawthorne. I knew we had some very interesting Hawthorne editions. I actually thought they were part of the Piskor collection but in fact, they were gathered together by a Ulysses Milburn, who was a graduate of the class of 1891.

Paul Doty:  He came here to study theology and was successful. He had a long career as a Unitarian minister in Massachusetts. But he fell in love with books when he got here, and not just reading, but books themselves, and then went out and created this absolutely wonderful collection of Hawthorne materials which includes manuscripts, it includes letter. We have on display a letter in which Hawthorne writes about Henry David Thoreau. It also includes first editions of The Scarlet Letter, American and British first editions. It includes a first edition of Fanshawe, which is a very rare edition.

Paul Doty:  They would be cool books just in and of themselves if happened to have them, but what was really fascinating was to discover who this Ulysses Milburn was and how he came to become a book collector and apparently, really credits St. Lawrence with this lifelong passion because in 1949, he gave us his collection, a truly first-rate collection of material by and about Nathaniel Hawthorne. I started in on this in the late summer with learning something about St. Lawrence, that this collection has an identity not because they're simply rare copies of these particular books, but it has an identity insofar as Reverend Milburn pulled them together and then having had them for the better part of his life, gave them to St. Lawrence.

Beth:  Wow.

Paul Doty:  I talked with Paul Haggett about this on and off over the last couple weeks because on my mind has been the whole idea of a collection and what constitutes a collection and how do you think about and talk about a collection beyond just the greater, well, special collection, all the stuff that happens back there. What are the collections within? How do you think about them and speak about them? This Milburn collection and the story of their acquisition is, again, shaping my thinking on this and in that way, was a real discovery for me in this last little bit.

Beth:  It also really illustrates well, I think, that in this case with Milburn, the connection that people who have taught or graduated from St. Lawrence have with this place that they want to leave something so significant behind and gift that to this university so that others may benefit from what they've been able to gather as well. [crosstalk 00:21:25].

Paul Doty:  Absolutely. If I didn't mention, again he was class of 1891.

Beth:  Fantastic.

Paul Doty:  Very obviously, this collection was truly a part of his self-identity, something he had as his assertion of self out there for the world, but your point's well taken.

Beth:  Are there other kinds of collections or things like that that it would be really interesting the St. Lawrence community knew a little bit about some of these gifts in kind? Do others come to mind?

Paul Haggett:  Paul's already mentioned there's another large book collection that we have that came to us from, I believe he was the 14th or 15th president of the university, Frank Piskor, that is all to do with Robert Frost. It's not a hugely scholarly collection, but Dr. Piskor was a fan of Robert Frost. I believe Dr. Piskor had ties to Middlebury College where Robert Frost was educated. He spent a lot of his life in that area so he, over the years, acquired a large collection of books about Frost, books by Frost, books having to do with people that wrote about... Just everything having to do with Robert Frost. And he left this significant collection of Frost material, which includes letters and items of manuscript nature, to St. Lawrence University.

Paul Doty:  It also includes a typewriter. And I happen to have in my hands a first British edition of Robert Frost North of Boston. It is inscribed... Oh, where is the inscription? Hold on just a second. Inscribed, "To Frank Piskor, my gratitude for several things, but particularly for what he has done for many young poet. This book, in this edition, takes me back to when I was a young poet, a phrase I would never have used for myself until others gave me that title. Robert Frost, Cambridge, Massachusetts. April 1962."

Beth:  Wow.

Amelia:  Wow. That's fascinating.

Paul Doty:  That happens to be one of the signed Frosts in the rare book edition which again, as Paul very accurately alludes to, is one of our also real kind of pillars of our rare book collections, the Piskor Frost collection. Dr. Piskor also in 1980, as part of the opening of the [Tory Wing 00:23:43], donated a Kelmscott Works of Geoffrey Chaucer. This is-

Amelia:  Oh, wow.

Paul Doty:  ... probably the most important books within the fine press movement. It's very much considered perhaps the finest of the Kelmscott Press. I don't happen to have in front of me how many were published, but it's a rare edition. That we have one is really quite remarkable. In fact, down in the lower level there is a book titled The Census of Kelmscott Chaucers. Somebody took the time to run around and figure out who owned all of this particular edition and where they are. We, indeed, are in this particular book.

Amelia:  Oh, wow.

Paul Doty:  As an example of fine press printing, this is [absolute par excellence. Again, this also came from Dr. Piskor in 1980.

Beth:  That is truly amazing. As somebody who wasn't always the biggest reader until I got to college, to hear that there are other Laurentians who found their love of books there, too, here at St. Lawrence is fascinating. And to see what they've done with their legacy.

Amelia:  It really shows that there's a character to the St. Lawrence that has existed throughout all of the different eras of the university. That's really fascinating to see the proof of that.

Paul Haggett:  I wanted to mention Beth, you piqued my interest in this when you mentioned Fisher Hall, which is among the older St. Lawrence buildings that are no longer with us. Fisher Hall was the location of the theological school, was the headquarters of the theological seminary and near as I can determine, was located about where the MacAllaster 24-hour room is currently.

Beth:  Oh, okay.

Paul Haggett:  You mentioned that it burned. That was in 1951. We had an earlier fire in St. Lawrence history that really is fascinating to me. That was the original gymnasium.

Beth:  Oh.

Amelia:  Oh.

Paul Haggett:  In 1896, St. Lawrence finally built a relatively kind of sort of adequate gymnasium for the first time. It was just a big wooden barn. They called it the wooden gym. That's the name of it.

Beth:  We were real creative back then.

Paul Haggett:  That's correct. It didn't take too long for students to really start complaining about how inadequate this wooden gym was. One night in 1925... I know this isn't visual program, but I'm going to show you this picture. This is a picture of the wooden gym going up in flames rather spectacularly. Those flames have got to be 50 feet high. It was never determined what the cause of this fire was.

Paul Haggett:  A few years later during one of the 1930s, say, alumni parades, here's another picture that shows a car. People are holding class of 1924 placards. It says on the front of the car, "We didn't burn the gym."

Beth:  What? 

Paul Haggett:

We have another picture here of a class of 1926 reunion. These are much older folks. But one of the signs reads, "1926," they got the year wrong but anyway, "1926 the gym burns wonderful."

Beth:  Oh my.

Paul Haggett:  There's always been this undercurrent theory that maybe, just maybe, the wooden gymnasium was burned down by human hand. Nobody really worried too much about it because not too long after that, just within a few months, they started work on what's now the Brewer Bookstore. Life went on at St. Lawrence and they finally had rid of this antiquated old gym.

Beth:  St. Lawrence will always find a way to leave a legacy, whether it be a mystery of who burned the gym/if anybody did. That's one of those things that I wish that we continued to talk about that turned it into a lore of who done it. Has anybody written a book about it?

Paul Haggett:  I don't know if a book was ever written. I've never seen one.

Beth:  Are there other buildings or structures, facilities that used to be on St. Lawrence's campus that no longer is?

Paul Haggett:  Oh, absolutely. Lots of them. Laurentian Hall, it's kind of like the equivalent of the student center today. It was the student union back in the post-World War II era. It was actually a surplus World War II recreational barracks that was moved on to campus. The university was very fortunate to get it because there just wasn't a lot of resources to just up and build new buildings in those days. That was located about where Priest Hall is today.

Paul Haggett:  Another World War II surplus building, which I'm not exactly sure where it was, but it was called South Hall. The music department was located there back in the day. The old bookstore, before the bookstore was moved to Brewer Bookstore, was in East Hall which was torn down shortly after the completion of the 2007 student center. There was an outdoor performance space called the Gaines Open Air Theater which was in the area of the commencement quad.

Beth:  Oh, okay. Creasy Commons area.

Paul Haggett:  Creasy Commons. Oh, there's, gee, a couple of others.

Paul Doty:  There was Vet Ville, right Paul?

Paul Haggett:  Vets Ville, yep. Veterans village was, again, built after World War II. There were hundreds of men coming back from World War II that were non-traditional students. They were older than college age and there was no room to house them on campus and no real room in the local community, either. So again, these surplus Army barracks were brought in to house these young men and some with young families. It was quite a time.

Beth:  I actually have a question about that. A number of years ago, probably five or six years ago, I met with one of our, she's still incredibly involved, alumna [A G Ellison 00:30:03], class of 1945. She was talking a little bit about the Navy and how the Navy basically saved St. Lawrence during World War II. Could you talk a little bit about if you know much about that?

Paul Haggett:  Yeah. That was the US Navy V-12 program. That was a Defense Department initiative whereby college students were taken into the program. They were educated in a stepped up fashion. They were made officers in the Navy and possible the Marine Corps as well, but certainly in the Navy. It was like a fast track officer training type of thing.

Beth:  Oh, wow.

Paul Haggett:  It's not an exaggeration that it helped to sustain St. Lawrence during the war when otherwise, these men that went through the V-12 program would've had to go elsewhere to get their military training before they were shipped off to go to war.

Beth:  Wow.  

Amelia:  It's so funny to hear stories like that because I grew up in the North Country, and so I'm always shocked when people know anything about the North Country. I'm like, "How do you know where Potsdam is?" Hearing these stories and these more major national institutions knowing about St. Lawrence is really fascinating. I mean, obviously earlier in our history, the North Country had different economics but it's still just fascinating our little corner of the world on the Canadian border has this history.

Beth:  And before an interstate program, too. [laughter].

Amelia:  Oh, yes.

Beth:  We're releasing this in October. One of the things that we were thinking about is there are a lot of urban legends about St. Lawrence, whether there are tunnel systems or haunted Herring-Cole or anything like that. Have you come across anything in your work or just myths and legends that you've heard that you could shine a light on that might interest some of our listeners?

Paul Haggett:  I have one. It's not a ghost story, I'm sorry.

Beth:  That's fine.

Paul Haggett:  Yes, there are catacombs under Herring-Cole that were used for storage. It had to be the worst storage in the history of storage.

Beth:  Probably very moist.

Paul Haggett:  Muddy and dirty and damp. There used to be stuff stored there. We've got any number of pictures of students in the catacombs. It looks spooky. But that's the closest thing I've got to a ghost story.

Paul Doty:  You did also mention simply an autumnal theme, Beth.

Beth:  Yes, yes.

Paul Doty:  One of our collections are called our artist books. These are books in which a book maker really uses the medium of the book to create a work of art in the same way a painter might use the medium of watercolor and paper to create a work of art. One of them is by Velma Bolyard, who is teaching now in our book arts program.

Paul Doty:  It's called November Song. It was published in 2013. It's a handmade book and it's a series of abstract images, but what she absolutely captures is the North Country landscape in November, the [inaudible 00:35:44], the purples, the browns, the grays, how that all bleeds together into a watercolor.

Paul Doty:   It's really a remarkable book in that when you pick it up and look at it again, the absolute visual aspect of the North Country, of the north in Vermont, is really beautifully captured by the book. Now that we're again open to the public, if someone wanted to come by and see it and have that experience of enjoying this piece of art here, they're certainly welcome into the Reading Room.

Beth:  That is fantastic. You know what? If you wouldn't mind, speak a little bit about the reading room itself because I don't know... When I was a student, I looked at it and I went, "What do you do, just sit in there and read?" I'm like, "I think that's about it."

Beth:  What is it about the Reading Room that people could utilize? It's not just that you sit down and read. I mean you do.

Paul Doty:  Actually, it kind of is.

Beth:  Yeah, yeah.

Paul Doty:  You sit down and read. We're open to the public. You don't need an appointment to come in. There are certain restrictions about how materials can be used. It's the Frank and Anne Piskor Reading Room which acknowledges, as Paul alluded to earlier, the importance of Dr. Piskor to the Special Collections area and to our special collections.

Paul Doty:  But I actually rather do like that idea, Beth, that it is where you come, you sit and read. I also sometimes try to talk about it as the great offline space on campus. We certainly do let people, if they wish, use their phones to photograph materials. Students are working with something. If they want to create an image, that's fine. A researcher is in and wants to get a photograph of a document so they can read it later, that's fine. But in a lot of ways, it is a great place to step back and get offline, get away from the constant electronic distraction that is sadly life at this time in the United States.

Beth:  Do you have favorite spaces either in ODY or across campus to take a step back and retreat? I know I have mine, but I would love to hear if you have places in mind.

Paul Doty:  Well, this actually is one of mine. Before I stepped into this position, that was 20 years I was doing something else, I would come up with reasons to come back here. I would be able to sit in the Reading Room and work on something.

Beth:  What about you, Paul Haggett?

Paul Haggett:  I think a lot of people feel like Herring-Cole is a similar type of a space. It always seems to be quiet in there. I guess I have been in there when there were lectures or something else going on, presentation or whatever, but by and large, that's what Herring-Cole is. It's another area to just go in and disconnect from the electronic world that we're immersed in all the.

Beth:  My favorite is the Ireland Room behind the dance studio and the NCAT in the Noble Center. It used to be a greenhouse, so you have lots of bright windows and spaces, but there's plenty of comfortable couches. There's plenty of space right there to just sit back, relax, read a little bit, look outside, have a good view of Hulett and Jencks and all the green space in between. But it's a nice space. What about you, Amelia?

Amelia:  It's funny. I didn't have as much of an opportunity to explore the spaces on campus. But I have to say, I also really like the timelessness of Herring-Cole, of you just walk in and you could be in any era of the university. There's something kind of magical about that. That beautiful rose window just takes my breath away every time. So I would have to say while I haven't explored quite all of the nooks and crannies of campus that I would've had the experience to as a student, I would have to say Herring-Cole is probably my favorite.

Beth:  Well, it sounds like now you know who you can go to in case you would like-

Amelia:  True.

Beth:  ... to find things to explore especially. Paul and Paul, is there anything else that you want to share about your work or special collections and archives that listeners may not know at this point, or do we feel like we've left all the stones turned over?

Paul Haggett:  Well personally, I think with this interview, we're going to be overworked in terms of-

Beth:  You're going to be really busy.

Amelia:  You're going to have a few phone calls coming your way.

Paul Haggett:  Well, let's hope so. I certainly appreciate the occasional human interaction. Sometimes it's hard to come by-

Beth:  You should put that on a sampler.

Paul Haggett:  ... in this COVID era.

Beth:  I like that idea. You should put that on a sampler. I do enjoy occasional human interaction.

Amelia:  The occasional human interaction.

Beth:  I really liked that. Paul Doty, do you have anything else that you-

Paul Doty:  I think I'm good, Beth. I think the stones are turned over. The salamanders are running loose, et cetera.

Amelia:  There we go.

Beth:  Wonderful. Well, thank you both so much for-

Paul Doty:  Thank you.

Beth:  ... spending some time with us today. I know that I've learned a little bit. When I'm back on campus, I plan to make an appointment to stop by and see some of the collections that you talked about and take a look at them and utilize the Reading Room to unplug.

Amelia:  No, this was wonderful. Just the wealth of knowledge that you both have and clearly the passion for those treasure hunts in the history of St. Lawrence is really fascinating. Thank you so much for sharing that with us today.

Paul Doty:  Thank you.

Paul Haggett:  Thanks a lot. This was fun.

Paul Doty:  Thank you.

[Music Plays]

Amelia:  Well, that wrapped up our fantastic interview with the Pauls. I have to say, Beth, this was one of my personal favorite interviews that we have done so far.

Beth:  I totally agree. I loved hearing a little bit more about some of the special collections that we have-

Amelia:  Oh, for sure.

Beth:  ... like the Hawthorne collection.

Amelia:  Yeah.

Beth:  I'm not the biggest bibliophile, and it sounds like we have such a huge history of alumni being bibliophiles, but I just found this absolutely fascinating.

Amelia:  And it's all just in our little corner of the world in Canton, New York. Who knew that we have these fascinating, incredible historical collections just tucked away?

Beth:  And that we have people from all corners of the world-

Amelia:  Japan.

Beth:  ... trying to come to campus? Japan? What? That's so cool. I really think that as we get the brand of St. Lawrence out there even more, I can't wait to see what and how our special collections grow-

Amelia:  For sure.

Beth:  ... in the future. Hopefully, this is something all of us can keep in mind as we're thinking about meaningful ways to give back to St. Lawrence. If you have something like this that you think the university could benefit from, or it would be better housed at SLU, hit up the Pauls.

Amelia:  Absolutely.

Beth:  [laughter].

Amelia:  They will be so excited, like kids at Christmastime.

Beth:  Absolutely. Or, if you want to know more, we're going to put in their contact information, their emails, in the notes here for the podcast. But I hope that you all enjoyed this as much as we did. What a great way to kick off the fall officially.

Amelia:  Absolutely. Thank you so much for all joining us. We'll see you all next month.

[Music Plays]

Beth:  Bye. Scarlet & Brown Stories is edited and produced by Amanda Brewer, Megan Fry Dozier, Dennis Morreale, Beth Dixon and Amelia Jantzi.

Amelia:  Our music was written by Christopher Watts, inspired by Eugene Wright, class of '49.

Beth:  Subscribe to Scarlet & Brown Stories on Apple Podcasts, Spotify and wherever you listen to podcasts.

Amelia:  If you have a story you'd like to submit to us, you can email us at connect@stlawu.edu. Don't forget to subscribe, like and leave your five-star review wherever you listen to podcast.

[Music Fades]

[Podcast theme music plays.]

Amelia:  Hello everyone. This is Amelia Jantzi, assistant director of marketing and content strategy, here at St. Lawrence University. A new position, a little switch up from last time.

Beth:  Yay. Congrats, Amelia.

Amelia:  But I'm not going anywhere. Still co-hosting this wonderful podcast with the wonderful Beth Dixon, our executive director of New York City Internships, and Laurentian Engagement Associates. Hey Beth.

Beth:  Hi.

Amelia:  How's it going?

Beth:  They're going well. I'm super excited about the interview that we have today, with Jeff Byrne. I'm so stoked.

Amelia:  Yeah. This should be an interesting story. Jeff Byrne comes to us from the class of 1974. He's a current member of the Alumni Executive Council. And prior to retiring, he most recently worked for the Olympic Regional Development Authority, in Lake Placid, New York, just around the corner.

Beth:  Oh. Yes.

Amelia:  And overall, he has this career built on athletics and coaching, teaching and mentoring, and is really an outstanding Laurentian. And should be a fascinating story for everyone to hear.

Beth:  Yeah, I totally agree. I love how so many of our Laurentians go into this path of teaching, education, mentoring, coaching, and he exemplifies that, with such an awarded career. And he got me thinking, I said, we're going to be talking to somebody who worked for the Olympic Regional Development Authority, and the Olympics were on when we are recording this. So I was like, how many Laurentians have gone and competed in the Olympics? And how many are gold medalists? Or metals in general. Amelia, do you have any sense of how many Laurentians have competed in the Olympics?

Amelia:  I have absolutely zero sense. This is fascinating. And I feel like I should have thought about this question before, but I didn't. So please tell me.

Beth:  So, based off of my knowledge and research, I was able to find that 18 Laurentians, both grads and non grads, have competed in the Olympics. With 16 of them competing in various winter Olympics, and two of them competing in the summer Olympics. The two that competed in summer Olympics, competed in sailing and rowing. So, very similar boat kind of sport. I mean, they're not similar. I'm sure that the athletes out there are going, they're not similar at all. I understand that.

Amelia:  But that makes sense for St. Lawrence.

Beth:  Absolutely. We have four gold medalist recipients that are Laurentians. We have Gina Kingsbury, class of '04, who was inducted for the Legends of Appleton, into the hall of fame. What was that? February 2020, before the pandemic hit?

Amelia:  It was. It was the last big, splashy event we did, before we all went on Zoom. So, can't ever forget the Appleton opening. What an experience.

Beth:  Well, she competed in the Torino in 2006, and Vancouver in 2010, winter Olympics. And won gold with team Canada, for the women's hockey. We have a non grad, Meghan Musnicki, who would have been class of 2005. She transferred to Ithaca in her sophomore year, and she has been a gold medal recipient for team USA in both the London 2012 and Rio 2016 Olympics, in rowing. And then we have Isabelle Chartrand, another non grad from the class of '03, who competed for the women's ice hockey in Canada, and won gold in Salt Lake City, in 2002.

Beth:  We had a lot of Olympians in 2002, by the way. I've looked at that. And then, Ed Rimkus class of '38, competed in the bobsledding, and won gold in the London 1948 Olympics.

Amelia:  Nice.

Beth:  So I thought that was pretty cool. When I looked back, I think he was the earliest Laurentian who had competed in the Olympics overall, as well.

Beth:  So, we have some pretty amazing athletes out there. And just a small side note I wanted to say too, I don't know if people know this but, if you complete one semester at St. Lawrence, we do consider you an alum. We call it an alum-non grad, non graduation. But we have plenty of wonderful people who throughout the St. Lawrence history, have not been able to complete their degrees or have transferred, or for whatever reason, but are still connected. And we consider them a part of the Laurentian community because of that. But I thought that was fun to look into, before this interview.

Amelia:  That is really fascinating. And what a great segue into this amazing interview.

Beth:  I can't wait to hear all about what Jeff Byrne has done to help support so many winter athletes, with his work with ORDA. So let's kick it over to our interview, right now.

[Short Music Interlude]

Beth:  Jeff, how are you doing today?

Jeff:  Oh, just fantastic. Beautiful day in the Adirondacks, so I can't ask for anything more.

Beth:  Now, you're now you're in Lake Placid right.

Jeff:  That's correct.

Beth:  Excellent. And so, thank you so much for joining us today. We are really excited to chat with you. And one of the things that we wanted to just start off with is, how have you stayed connected with St. Lawrence? How are you engaged? And why are you engaged with St. Lawrence?

Jeff:  Well, I had a little bit of a disconnect after graduating. I moved around to several different jobs. The first 15 years, were education and coaching. And then I went out west, I came back east, to Washington DC. And then I made my way back to Lake Placid. And it was shortly after I moved back to Lake Placid, that Margie Strait got ahold of me. And she said, Jeff, I really would like you to come as part an Alumni council, and talk to student athletes. So I did that for three or four years, and that was a lot of fun. It was great, and it was great to connect with some alums from previous years, and also, obviously student athletes. And that's a pretty exciting group.

Beth:  So with the student athletes, what kind of things were you connecting about? Were you connecting specifically about what it was like to be a student athlete? Because I know that you played soccer at St. Lawrence, correct?

Jeff:  Yes, I did.

Beth:  And so, was it more about being an alum who used to play sports and what you could do afterwards, or was it a cheerleading group?

Jeff:  It's a little bit about the reality of, what do sports do for you? And a solid academic background, as you get out into the world, and start running into interests and moves, and interviews and all of that. And I think, we all seem to have the same message in that process. And it was A, make sure you talk about the strong academic background. And B, don't hesitate to get into sports and your career. Because sports is a lot about winning and losing. And reality is, in the big world, you run into some of the same factors. And having lost and being able to rebound, whether it's a game or whether it's a business transaction, you're all the stronger because of it.

Amelia:  When you were attending St. Lawrence and you were a student athlete, were you intending to build a career based around athletics?

Jeff:  Well, I'll answer that in two forms. I started off my freshman year playing soccer, and had a great season. And then in July, between my freshman and sophomore year, I got hit by a car when I was driving between Lake Placid and Saranac Lake. And basically, I broke my back in the accident, and that was it for soccer. I came back to St. Lawrence with a full body brace that I had to wear for nine months. So it was the reality of, things do happen. And then again, how do you rebound off of that? And I think, I was always sports minded and sports interested. I had a great high school career and great coaches, and I always wanted to go back to that profession. And in my case, in a private school. And that's basically what I chased for the 15 years, out of St. Lawrence.

Jeff:  So, I was a teacher and I was a coach, and I became an administrator. So, that was tremendous. And I will attribute that to St. Lawrence. And really having to realize, well, okay, plan A didn't work. What's plan B? And I always preach to different groups, you're only as strong as your plan B. So, it was a reality check. So, I think what I learned in the years to come is that, I could get back on my feet, I could kick a soccer ball, I could play club soccer, which was great. I really wasn't up to the standard of playing varsity. But we had great soccer at St. Lawrence, as we do with a lot of sports. And then, I was also involved with the ski team. And that became a big part of my life, moving forward. Was coaching, and ski teaching.

Beth:  Now Jeff, are you originally from the Adirondacks? You mentioned that the car accident happened between what was it? Saranac Lake and Lake Placid. Were you home during that summer? Or were you up there for other reasons?

Jeff:  I was working in Lake Placid. Yeah. I spent a lot of summers in Lake Placid, working at the Lake Placid Club, and bartending at other places. And so, it really became a summer home, so to speak. I grew up in Plattsburgh -

Beth:  Oh, okay.

Jeff:  Right. And I went away to school, when I was 14.

Beth:  Wow. So, would you say that these summers at the Lake Placid Club, really inspired you to stay within, or if you could, return to the north country, the Adirondacks, and try to live here? Is that part of the reason why you decided to come back?

Jeff:  I've always had a very warm spot for Lake Placid. And when I graduated from St. Lawrence, I came to Lake Placid and I worked for a year. Created a marketing job at the Lake Placid Club, to entice colleges and corporate groups to come up to Lake Placid on ski trips, and all of that. While at the same time, I was doing some bartending.

Jeff:  And I spent the year in the spring. All I did was paddle whitewater, because I was a kayaker also. And had a great experience, but it was time for me to move on. And I found a teaching job just outside of Pittsfield, Massachusetts. And I was there for two years, and then the job opened up at Northwood. And it was in the field that I was teaching, and also the sports that I was coaching.

Jeff:  So I moved up to Lake Placid in '77, you guys probably weren't even born then, but to take on the job at Northwood school. And that took me through the Olympics here in town, and I left in '82. I was hired by a friend whose kids I coached, to help him start a ski academy in Sugarloaf, on Maine.

Beth:  Oh wow.

Jeff:  So, I was up there for nine years. So I left in '82, and I came back to Lake Placid in '97. And the 17 years away, were tremendous. I realized that I could live in a lot of different places, including Washington, DC.

Amelia:  Very different.

Jeff:  They all had a great chapter. And then I had an opportunity to come back here, with the Olympic Authority, ORDA. And I took that.

Amelia:  So, were you always hoping to end up back in Lake Placid? Or was that just how life worked out, and it just happened to go that way?

Jeff:  Well, it was how life worked out. When I left here in '77, I didn't necessarily think I'd be coming. It might've been a situation maybe, down the road. Because, what a lot of young people realize is that, inside the blue line, which is basically the Adirondack Park, jobs aren't that readily available. And for people that are trying to get into that type of business, you just really have to keep looking, and be in the right place at the right time.

Jeff:  Fortunately in my life, really, every job that I've had, came as a result of knowing somebody. I think that's one of the reasons that the St. Lawrence network is so good, and so important, of making that introduction, and making that connection. And seeing where that connection can take you. And not stopping, I'm just really cultivating it.

Beth:  I'm really happy that you bring that up. I think one of the things that I know about you is that, you have been working very hard within the LINC program, which is a mentoring program. As well as, you're a leader within the alum network, as a member of the Alumni Executive Council. And one of the things I know that you have done is, tried really hard to be a connector for students, and for alums, regardless of the fields that they're in. Can you speak a little bit to what has inspired you? Was it because you were able to find your jobs through people, whether they were St. Lawrence connected, or people that you knew in other areas of your work and your life? Is that the inspiration there? Or was it truly, I know that St. Lawrence, this is the mission of our alums, and I want to live up to it?

Jeff:  Well, I think that's definitely a part of it. Again, the reality is, in my life, I've always been connected with students, and student athletes. And, you coach for three seasons a year, over the course of 15 years, there are a lot of people that have come across your doorstep.

Beth:  Sure.

Jeff:  And I absolutely loved it, because coaching and sports were always a game of life. And there was so much you could learn in that process, that were just life skill oriented. And I really liked the concept of the LINC program when I heard it the first time. And I said, absolutely. I'm on board. And I think there's a clear definition of what a LINC mentor does. And a LINC mentor is not a teacher, it's not a parent, it's not a coach, it's not an advisor.

Jeff:  It is a person that really is there to provide some guidance and direction, and a snapshot of what the big world may have out there. And hopefully, an inspiration to try things. As nervous as it is to leave your home and go somewhere, or nervous as it is to get on a plane and go to Europe or South America, it's such a great outcome. When somebody gets done with those programs, a semester away, wherever it is, they come back and they're bigger, they're smarter, they're more broad minded. And those are the things that I think are really key to growing up in the world.

Amelia:  True.

Beth:  I love hearing that. Liberal arts, lifelong learners, global citizens, those are all wonderful things.

Jeff:  Well, certainly. They're so important. It's part of what we put stock in, so we're stronger in the outcome.

Amelia:  Jeff, I wanted to, as we've talking about your experience on the mentor side of LINC Program. In our last episode, we had the opportunity to talk to an alum who was on the student end of that. So it's really exciting to hear this other perspective. But I was thinking about your experience in this mentor role. And something that you said earlier when you were sharing with us about your accident, about you're only as good as your plan B. And I was wondering if you'd be willing to share, or if there was an example of how that perspective maybe, helped someone that you've mentored. Whether in the LINC Program, or during your times in coaching and teaching.

Jeff:  Let me talk about one individual I actually came in contact with, in the mentor program. He was also, I think he still, is, also a mentor. His name is Elsie Walker.

Amelia:  Oh, yes.

Jeff:  And I don't know if you know Elsie, but Elsie is a film writer, and producer. And he has a great story to tell. And I learned a little about him when he first joined on as a LINC Mentor, and I got to know him a little better the next year. And so, I've been working pretty closely with him, and one of my fellow class of '74, Mark Driscoll, to really help Elsie take next steps forward, get through some doors. I have reconnected with the St. Lawrence Alumni office to get some contacts there, and they've been extremely helpful in that process. Elsie came up to Lake Placid for a few days. So we had a chance to sit down, and really talk strategy.

Jeff:  And it was fantastic. So I think, again, you go into something with so much energy and excitement. A Job, or a career, or whatever path you're on, and sometimes you get a little bit of the steam taken out of you, because it may not be that easy to walk through the door and take the next step. So again, going back to the option of, okay, I know that was my plan A. My plan B, what's my plan B? So, you do. You have other options as you move forward. And the worlds there for you to figure that one out.

Beth:  I'm happy you bring up Elsie. Elsie was the classmate of mine. We were both performance and communication arts majors together. And he is a wonderful person, with so many wonderful stories to tell, and very talented. So I'm happy that, for the work that you've done to invest in one of my Laurentian friends, and in his life and career. I'm also thankful for him to not only share stories, but also to give back to the Laurentian community, through the LINC mentor program. This is just such a wonderful opportunity for many people to find ways to utilize their talents, to give back to the students, and give back to the Laurentian community.

Jeff:  He's an awesome guy. And a lot of his message is about bullying in school. And opening that up, exposing it, talking about it. And he's really done a great job in taking that message to a number of schools in different states, which will continue to be part of what he does. And as you said, he's been involved with the mentor program, but he's also been involved in having St. Lawrence students or Alumni, connected to some of the projects he's doing. So again, opportunities there too.

Amelia:  Well, you shared a lot about how to win and to lose, and to pivot when unexpected things happen. And I'm curious the role that you see athletics playing in a liberal arts education, as opposed to just life in general.

Jeff:  Oh, sure. I think, one of the things, thinking back to the time I was at St. Lawrence, there were a lot of students that were coming in, who were good athletes from high school. And you only had so many athletes that were going to make the team. And there was club sports, which was great, but it was a little bit down paced from a varsity team. In my day, we had freshmen sports, and then you went to the varsity.

Jeff:  And then it became JV sports and... But that opportunity, you may have 30 or 45 student athletes that take that on. And I think, a number of the athletes don't continue. They may not be that good. In my case, in ski racing, when I came to St. Lawrence, we had a class full of incredible alpine ski racers. And it was pretty clear I wasn't going to make that five, that were going to ski racing. So, I stayed involved with the ski team, but I also got into ski teaching and coaching, in Lake Placid, when I was a junior. When I could basically, walk and ski again. For me, that connection was great, and a lot of those guys are still very close friends of mine. And some of them live in Lake Placid.

Beth:  I do think that it's important to recognize that as a mostly D III school, we have many students that come in as wonderful athletes, incredible athletes. Who, once they graduate, they keep athletics in some capacity, but a lot of them do what you've done, which is turned to coaching, turn to education, and be a mentor, a coach, a teacher in those different aspects. And I think that your story represents those many Laurentians over many different class years, that have that similar story and background. And I really appreciate that we are not only a community of lifelong learners, as I jokingly mentioned earlier, we are a community of lifelong teachers as well. And oftentimes, people say that teaching is one of the best ways to learn. Do you find that, that is the case for you? Have you learned a lot through all those years, the 15 years worth of teaching? And then what you were able to do further in your career?

Jeff:  Oh, absolutely. I think, as a teacher when you get excited about what you're teaching, you continue to learn as you dig more and more into what you're there to present and pass on, as a message to the kids in the classroom. But it is, it's great. It's a great disciplined profession. And I really enjoyed that time. My last job, for seven years when I moved to Maine, was to start a school.

Jeff:  To start at private school, a ski academy. And we basically started from nothing. We had a number of families in Maine who were very excited about having their kids stay in Maine, and go to school and ski race, and not go to some of the other academies that were out there. So, we had great backers. We had a lot of support. The Sugarloaf community in Maine, is just an incredible community of people. And we were able to put together a program over the years, where we continue to increase our enrollment. And really, after two or three years, we were focusing on the full-time program. We went away from a winter term program. They're still doing very well today. Great leadership. And the headmaster of the school is a girl that I actually coached when she was 13, 14, and now she's done her circle in life. In fact, they're doing an incredible job.

Amelia:  Well, that must be so rewarding to see that. That's really great [crosstalk 00:24:03] .

Amelia:  Well, I want to jump ahead a little bit in your career. And so looking over your bio, you did so many things when you worked for the New York State Olympic Authority. And I'm really curious, what was your favorite part of that? What was the part that you loved the most?

Jeff:  It was 21 years with the Olympic authority, and we put on a lot of events. We had 133 event days a year.

Beth:  Wow.

Jeff:  You folks have been involved with events, and you know what that means in terms of working them. The crew that we had at the Olympic authority, were incredible. They were a wealth of knowledge and very organized, and we really got into this. And it really didn't matter whether you were working seven days or 12 hours or whatever, we did what we needed to do to have great events. And we had, probably, some of the relationships were different and fun. We had the first ever winter Goodwill Games, been in Australia and they'd been in New York, and this was a Ted Turner deal. And so, we took on this event. It was a four day event. It was a very small field of athletes in each one of the sports, but we did most of the winter sports.

Jeff:  And so, it was a quick snapshot of a little Olympics, but a lot of TV time. What was great about it is, I think we had 32 hours of TV.

Beth:  Wow.

Jeff:  So people got to know a little bit about Lake Placid. A little refresher from the time of the winter Olympics in 1980. So, the Goodwill Games was great. We also hosted the ESPN Great Outdoor Games, and this was a summer event. And I don't know whether you've ever seen it, but it went by the wayside, seven or eight years ago. But it was field dogs, it was chainsaws, it was axe chopping, it was log rolling, it was shooting. We hosted that event for two years. Their model was, we go somewhere for two years, and then we move on. After two years, we had a great relationship.

Jeff:  Some of the folks said, well, we need to move to a venue where we will get more people. So we got the governor involved, and it was Governor Pataki at the time. And he was totally behind it. And we came up with what we needed to, to get them back for a third year, which was another tremendous year. And it brought a lot of people into Lake Placid for, if not a couple of days, even for a day. But the town is really hopping.

Jeff:  So, it was a fun event. And unfortunately after it left here, it didn't continue to succeed. So we had a good event here. We probably could have kept it on for another 10 years, and had great support from people.

Beth:  Too bad they didn't bring it back, to Lake Placid.

Jeff:  I know. They went from here, to Reno Tahoe. And that was a one and done. And they went to Madison, Wisconsin, and that was a one and done. And so, they were trying to build on this two year model, and it didn't work.

Beth:  Well, once you go Lake Placid, there's just nothing you can do, that's better than that.

Jeff:  That's right.

Amelia:  Yeah. It sounds way too Adirondacky. We got a message just now from Amanda, behind the scenes, letting us know that they were amazing games to be there in person for. So it sounds like Amanda was there.

Jeff:  They were a lot of fun. What we've hung our hat on is, being able to continue to maintain quality, world competition venues. So we've had world cups every year, in a number of the sports. Freestyle skiing, which is aerials and moguls. Bobsled skeleton, on our track at Mt. Van Hoevenberg, luge. That's a big event.

Jeff:  We've had some biathlon events, and we've had a number of skiing events. So, it's been good. And speed skating. So, it's great. I mean, this fall going into winter, we'll have, Olympic trials for ski jumping will be here.

Beth:  Wow.

Amelia:  Very cool.

Jeff:  That should be fun. And it's always, winter Olympics comes quickly, it's going to be six months from now.

Beth:  Well, it's going to be even quicker this year, just because the summer Olympics were delayed a year. So instead of having two years in between these Olympics, we only have one year, not even.

Jeff:  It's quick. And it's in a country that isn't known for it's winter sports, as much as it's known more of the summer sport. But the understanding is they're moving along, and the International Olympic Committee is a watchdog on venues and preparation.

Beth:  Good.

Jeff:  And as we just saw in Japan, they were supportive. The games worked. So, onto the next one.

Beth:  Well, I do you think it's important that after you talk about all these wonderful events that you were able to help put on and were a big part of happening, that we congratulate you on the John Sinclair Award that you were just awarded a couple months ago, for your work with ORDA, and putting on these different events. Specifically, I believe this was for the skiing events that you were able to put on the Lake Placid areas. Is this correct?

Jeff:  It's mostly focused in on skiing cross-country Alpine, and the freestyle disciplines. Yeah. We have great relationship with U. S Ski and Snowboard. Today, a number of my colleagues at ORDA, were very closely connected to their counterparts, in park city. So, we put on a lot of things. We did some great things moving forward. We enticed them to look at a team event in snowboarding. They did, and they really pushed it becoming an Olympic sport. So it's part of the Olympics.

Jeff:  So, they were a good working partner. They worked with us, they came up with some money to help improve some of our venues. We're willing to commit. We needed some support. They came to the board and additionally, the U.S Olympic Committee has been a tremendous partner.

Amelia:  As we wrap up a little bit here, I have a less serious and more fun question of, you've been living in the Adirondacks on and off, for most of your life. Of the four seasons at the Adirondacks, which is the best? This is a long standing debate with people I know. Is it the snow, for skiing? Is it the fall leaves? Kayaking in the summer? What's the best part of the Adirondacks?

Jeff:  April, because it's muddy and -

Beth:  I was just going to sit back and say -

Jeff:  You don't see the sun a lot. No, actually you asked that, in my years when I was here coaching and teaching at Northwood, and also my year out of St. Lawrence, I loved April, because it meant kayaking season. The rain never bothered us, and we're hoping for more and more.

Jeff:  Probably, hard to say what the best is. I mean, I love skiing and all of that, but I think the fall is just such a great time up here. Because it really is a time to relax at the end of the summer. And it's just so spectacular.

Beth:  I've always felt that fall was the meta season because, especially up here and in the Adirondacks, you get elements of winter, it's probably going to snow a little bit, but you also weirdly still have some of those hot days. It's really beautiful to look around. You can do pretty much anything that you want to do, except for, I mean, you really do need more snow for this skiing portion.

Jeff:  That's true.

Amelia:  Sure. Although I have to say, I weirdly always get excited in April in that early spring, because it lets me know that winter is ending, and warmer days are ahead. And it's that season of anticipation, and it's so exciting to see. It's true, there's no season in the Adirondacks, that isn't beautiful and magnificent.

Jeff:  Right. It's hard to say which one's the best. I mean, it is a four season community. And we've done a lot within the Olympic Authority, to weatherproof a lot of our venues. So that they can be accessed and used, on a 12 month basis. And we continue to find events to do in those off-season times. Because again, our partnership with the USOPC, U. S Olympic Paralympic Committee is so good that, we've been involved in boxing events and a number of different summer events, volleyball, as they come to this area. And we've even helped them put on some events here locally. So, it's good.

Beth:  Well, thank you so much, Jeff, for joining us today. We really appreciate everything that you've done. Not only for the St. Lawrence community, but for the greater north country, Adirondack communities, especially Lake Placid, through your work with ORDA, and working with so many of the different winter sports. To help, like you said before, gain more funding for better facilities, for tourism, for these wonderful events that you've been able to put on, that support our Olympic athletes, and those that are hoping to continue on their careers. We really appreciate everything that you've done for us, and continued to do. Is there anything else that you wanted to add, for the listening ears of the Laurentian community?

Jeff:  Well, sure. I'll put a plug in for the World University Games, in January of 2023. Lake Placid and the Adirondack region, will host the World University Games, Winter University Games. And it will be the feeling of a small Olympic games. Going to have a lot of athletes here, from a lot of different countries. I mean, all of the winter sports with the exception of bob sled and luge and skeleton, will be a part of this.

Jeff:  So, we'll have ski jumping, we'll have whatever. And I think to date, there's over $500 million that have been spent on venue upgrades. And these upgrades are just incredible. A lot of what you see, is just fantastic. A lot of what you don't see, is very necessary in making the venues work. It's going to be an opportunity to continue on another 30 plus years to host events. So, it will be fun. It's going to be over basically, two weeks. And so, I hope people keep an eye on it. They do a great job with live streaming the event itself. And maybe even, it's worth a trip down here to take a look at it.

Amelia:  Always worth a trip to Lake Placid.

Jeff:  Yeah, absolutely.

Amelia:  Well, thank you so much, Jeff. This has been a great time for us, and I hope for you as well.

Jeff:  Great. It is. And thank you very much for all of the work that you're all doing. It's so important, and it really makes our network, what I consider, the best anywhere. I think we all feel that. Honestly, we have some opportunities to help a lot of people out, and make the right connections. So, thank you.

Beth:  Thank you so much, Jeff.

Jeff:  Good luck.

[Short Music Interlude]

Beth:  Well, there you have it. Another wonderful interview in the books, Amelia. I had such a good time talking with Jeff. What were some of the highlights that you have had throughout the entirety of the interview?

Amelia:  Oh my goodness. I think one of the things that really stuck with me, was the way that Jeff has this desire to share his knowledge and his insights that he's gained as an athlete, overcoming challenges, learning to win and to lose, and how he really seems to have a passion for sharing that with so many people. And I think that, that's such an example of the kinds of people that Laurentians are. They are people that want to share and impact lives, in whatever ways they can.

Beth:  I really appreciate hearing his perspective on how, your plan B becomes your plan A, a lot of the time. And how to best prepare for that. I love just how connected he is to St. Lawrence, and the ways in which that he has tried to make connections within the St. Lawrence community. We always talk about how we have one of the best alum networks in the nation, and it's because of people like Jeff, who really go out of their way to connect the people that he thinks could be beneficial for each other, in their lives. And also, reconvene with the people that have been important throughout his entire life.

Amelia:  Yeah, that was fantastic. So another great episode, and we have another one coming up in October. We'll be taking a little stroll down memory lane in archives. And so, we're excited to hear some historical stories for our October episode.

Beth:  Maybe a ghost story, or two.

Amelia:  Maybe. It is October. We are excited, and hope that you join us next time for another episode of Scarlet & Brown Stories. Till then.

[Podcast theme music plays over credits.]

Beth:  Scarlet & Brown Stories is edited and produced by Amanda Brewer, Meghan Fry Dozier, Dennis Morreale, Beth Dixon and Amelia Jantzi.

Amelia:  Our music was written by Christopher Watts, inspired by Eugene Wright, class of '49.

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Amelia:  Hello everyone. Welcome to another episode of Scarlet & Brown Stories. This is Amelia Jantzi, your host and assistant director of Laurentian engagement with my cohost, Beth Dixon.

Beth:  Hi. I'm so excited to be back for yet another episode of Scarlet & Brown Stories. Today, we're going to be chatting with Sonya Jensen, who's class of 2019, and she has a really interesting story as a young alum, someone who recently graduated a couple of years ago. She did the SLU PIC internship program, which we'll talk a little bit more in the interview about. And that translated into her first job and her desire to stay connected to the North Country, and be a Laurentian who wants to make a difference in the North Country at a nonprofit organization.

Amelia:  That's so cool. This is a great interview everyone, and I can't wait to share it with you. But I've been thinking a lot about the impact that St. Lawrence has had on St. Lawrence County and with the history that's there, especially now that I'm on campus more and walk around campus. And so I was just doing some digging of the history of St. Lawrence, and there's so much there. And so we have two buildings that are on the National Register of Historic Places. I have to say, Beth, all right, alum check.

Beth:  Okay.

Amelia:  If you had to guess, which two buildings are they?

Beth:  Okay, well, listen, I'm probably like... I'm so prepared for this question. Because I was an admissions tour guide, and now they call them admissions ambassadors. So I do know this, that it's the first two buildings that were on campus, Richardson Hall, as well as Herring-Cole.

Amelia:  Yay. We have a winner. But yes, there's just so much there. And it's really interesting to see people like Sonya who are continuing the legacy of being Laurentian that are creating positive change in St. Lawrence County. So should we jump right in?

Beth:  Yeah, I think we should jump right in. This is a great interview and I hope you all appreciate everything that Sonja Jensen has to say. Welcome.

Sonja:  Oh, thanks for having me. I'm so excited. I'm honored to be a guest and so happy to see you both.

Beth:  We're so happy to see you too. Sonja also had some wonderful opportunities working across campus when you were a student, right?

Sonja:  Yes. I did a lot on campus and had quite a few jobs.

Amelia:  It sounds like you basically did everything that you could do.

Sonja:  I did not shy away from the opportunities that St. Lawrence presented me with. I tried to do little bit of everything. By senior year I'd narrowed down and sort of found my niches. But I worked as a community assistant for my sophomore and my senior year. And I was also the reunion intern for the office of the Laurentian engagement. That's how I know all you lovely folks.

Beth:  A huge help you were too, so thank you very, very much. That's a huge job.

Sonja:  I loved it. It was so great. I had a ton of fun. I loved working reunions. I worked a reunion every year that I was on campus and had a ton of fun doing all the jobs.

Beth:  In a shorter list to say, what didn't you do when you were at St. Lawrence?

Sonja:  Right?

Beth:  But I also can identify with wanting to work reunion every year. I not only worked reunion when I was a student for the four years as a van driver, I also worked the fifth year when I was like a part-time admissions interviewer, where I was like, can I drive vans again?

Sonja:  I love that. I know, like if COVID wasn't happening, I was going to send the text message to Amanda and ask if I could come back and do the vans. I also did vans and golf carts and had such a blast every year.

Beth:  It's a great way to meet all the alums and such that are there.

Sonja:  Oh my God, yeah. I made a lot of great connections through reunion. Not only the alums, but also like some of the student workers are like really close friends that I never crossed paths with them before working reunion. And now, still buds.

Amelia:  Nice. What is one of your most memorable moments from van driving or a golf cart driving? There's gotta be some good ones.

Sonja:  Oh my gosh. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, there was a time. It was the last day of reunion and I was scheduled to drive a van down to Syracuse, the Syracuse airport, and was driving with a friend Morgan Rosser. Shout out Morgan. And she had never been down to the Syracuse airport and I'm from Binghamton. So I drive 81 all the time and I was like, oh, you can follow me. And we went down and of course there was like massive construction in Syracuse and it was pouring rain. And so I'm like so confident we're going to get to the airport. And then they have the lane changes. And I had forgotten that one of my alums was going to the bus station and I had a station in my phone for the GPS. And so we like totally missed our exit to the airport and just took a little jaunt around Syracuse. We had fun with it. We saw the sites, no one was late. Everyone made it on time. But it was a bonding moment for sure, with everyone on that van. It was a ton of fun.

Amelia:  Oh my goodness. Yeah, that sounds like a harrowing tale with a happy ending.

Beth:  I was going to say the harrowing tale, well I have another one, which we won't disclose here, but I had a harrowing tale of turning, we to have these posts, these brown posts at the top of the quad. And I found that turning left on a van, you couldn't quite see where you were going. And I scraped the entire side of one of our vans. I think it was like the third year that I was driving. Dennis Morreale at the time was was my boss. I'm sure he's reminded of how I once had to tell security, "I'm sorry. I ruined the side of a van."

Sonja:  It was always a fun time though. Nick Purcell and I, and a couple other kids that were big in the golf cart groups, if you want to say it like that, we developed a little safety course that we did with people for the golf carts. Our senior year, we put up cones in the Whitman parking lot and had people drive around, do slalom turns with the cones and then back into a spot. And we made other people ride around so they could feel what it was like to be a passenger. And my favorite was you're not supposed to leave your keys in the golf cart, and so I would leave a Gatorade bottle somewhere and I was like, oh yeah, can you just grab that Gatorade bottle for me? I just left it over there.

Sonja:  You're done with the tests, don't worry about it. And then everyone left their keys in the golf cart and I was like, ha ha. That was another test, and I would steal the golf cart from them. And everyone learned to take their keys out. Amanda, I'm not sure if you knew that, but we had fewer incidents that year of keys left in the golf cart.

Beth:  Was this security approved?

Sonja:  Security does show the safety video that Nick Purcell and Cooper McCrillis and I made. A couple of other kids were involved. I think they show it or somebody shows it. Joe definitely shows it.

Beth:  That's amazing, because I remember when I was a student trying to get golf cart certified, they showed a video from University of Florida. My favorite part about that was they said don't drive the golf carts on the freeway. And I was like, first of all, there is no freeway around Canton, New York. Secondly, I just thought the idea of having a golf cart on route 11 would be akin to running into an Amish buggy or something.

Sonja:  Probably faster than some tractors.

Amelia:  Yeah. But speaking of North Country life, after graduation, you stuck around. Can you tell us a little bit about that story?

Sonja:  So I did SLU PIC with GardenShare, which is where I work now. I'm the outreach coordinator for GardenShare, and I also manage the Canton farmer's market. And I was in a SLU PIC with GardenShare right after graduation. So the summer of 2019, and a couple of weeks into that job, they had told me there was a position open for an AmeriCorps Vista with them and asked if I wanted it. And I was like, sure, I had nothing else going on. So I decided to take it and was thankfully able to take it and not take too big of a hit to my bank account, because I lived with the wonderful Sarah Coburn from career services. They let me rent a room in their house in exchange for some dogs sitting and occasional making sure their kids were safe. I stayed up here, so I lived in Canton for a year with them, and then moved up to Potsdam back last August with two other St. Lawrence alums. We were all class of 2019, Nula Woods and Matt Atkins.

Sonja:  They're a good friends of mine. We were all sociology majors together and ended up here. And we're absolutely loving it. We like to say that Potsdam is the new Burlington. So it's been really great. I love the North Country. I was fortunate enough to spend three summers up here while I was a student. Like, clearly couldn't get enough. So this is my second year. So 2019, June of 2019 is when I started with GardenShare. Now we're June 2021. So it's been a while and it's been really great. People always say there's not a lot to do in the North Country, but-

Amelia:  They just aren't being creative.

Sonja:  Yes. I have a ton of fun. I go for a lot of walks. That's one of my favorite things about Potsdam and just North Country is how walkable Potsdam is, but also how easy it is to take a hike and escape into nature and see really, really spectacular sites. Even just going to Heritage Park in Canton, it's like you're in another world away from Main Street. So yeah, it's definitely a plus for me as a nature lover to stay up here.

Amelia:  I'd love to hear a little bit more about the kind of work that you're doing, but before we do that, I want to jump back and talk a little bit about SLU PIC, because Beth, I believe that you've been involved on the more logistical side of things.

Beth:  I have, yeah.

Amelia:  So if you want to fill in a little bit of what SLU PIC means for people who don't know.

Beth:  Sure. I'm going to talk a little bit just about SLU PIC, but then I want to hear Sonja, what your experience was because clearly it translated well, but SLU PIC is a program that started I believe in 2015 where basically the university uses funds to align our student interns with nonprofits and NGOs in the North Country who could use an intern or help who maybe wouldn't normally have the funds in order to do so. So they have a summer internship where they're going to be working on a project or projects that would help bring the organization to the next level that's sustainable after that intern is gone.

Beth:  So in the fall, we open up applications to these different NGOs and nonprofits in the North Country and a committee that involves a lot of different alums and staff members from across campus, which I happened to be a part of, review those applications, and then we make the selections of which sites will be available for the summer. And then in February, typically that is when the students apply for the various different sites. They can apply for one site, multiple sites. And then we interview every student that applies because we think it's important and it's a learning opportunity to make sure that we can give feedback to students, both positive and constructive, or even things like, hey, your resume may need a look over from career excellence. Go to the center for excellence and work with them.

Beth:  And then from there, second interviews will take place with the site. And then they make the selections of the interns that work with them for the summer. And we provide a stipend for the students, as well as housing in the townhouses for the summer. They have kind of a community learning opportunity and also get to work in the North Country. And Sonja, you were talking about how important exploring the North Country is. A lot of students don't get the opportunity to explore Canton in the North Country in the summer. So I think that a lot of people, whether they are their admissions interns or doing fellowships or research over the summer, SLU PIC interns really have this unique opportunity to explore everything that the North Country has to offer when the weather is nice.

Sonja:  Yes, definitely. The work that I did there, I came on and they were working on a project looking at what summer meals sites were available for kids up here. With such a large county, it can be hard to make sure that everyone in the summer without the constant busing to and from school, once school gets out it can be a big challenge for families to get the food access that they typically have during the summer for their students. So I was looking at what options were available for families for summer meal options. If there were summer schools that were in session, how folks could take advantage of that and essentially identifying what gaps were left. And it was a great project. I also did a lot of local food guide delivering.

Sonja:  And that was one of, I think the best experiences I had as a SLU PIC. Not that I didn't enjoy doing my summer meal research, but it was a little depressing just seeing how much work needs to still get done up here. But I delivered food guides which if you don't know, GardenShare puts out a resource every year that lists all the farmer's markets, farm stands. U-pick's, restaurants that source local food, stores that source local food. And then all the different ways that programs that we offer that make global food affordable, and we make that available. You see them all over, and we try to get them as many places a week as we can. So I delivered them from everywhere from down in Star Lake to Morristown and up to Akwesasne. I saw all of the Lawrence county that summer and it was a ton of fun.

Sonja:  I just popped in, I got to chat with business owners and farmers and just a ton of really great people and made a ton of connections that way that have helped now that I actually work at GardenShare. There are some people that I met delivering food guides that I'm like, "Hey, do you remember me? I need your help doing something in Ogdensburg." And they're like, "Yeah, for sure. I remember, it was great chatting with you." So yeah, that was a really great part of the project. Like Beth said, they're all project-based. They help organizations in the area with basically a project that their regular staff don't have the bandwidth for that they would love to get done. And so a student can come in and help them out. Help take a little bit off the plate of the staff members, which is a really great help.

Sonja:  So I was happy to do that work at GardenShare and happy that I got to explore. I did a lot of exploring through work, but then also on my own. There's such a great community at the townhouses in the summer. And especially getting to live with other SLU PIC students. It's just really fun. We get to talk about what we're up to. There was one day I remember a friend Zach Larkin, he was doing a SLU PIC with the renewal house and one of the other SLU PIC students, she was working at the children's museum. So she had to work Saturdays and we all had Saturdays off and Zach and I were like, let's go visit. So we went up and hung out at the children's museum and got to see where our other SLU PIC person was working.

Sonja:  And then we went and played mini golf at Swing Time mini golf, and had such a great time. And it was really cool getting an inside look at a lot of the different organizations up here, especially there's a lot of collaboration that happens up here. Just the nature of things. Like there's a lot of non-profits that work together, or that should work together because they have similar interests. Being able to just hang out and eat dinners outside and chat about what we're working on and what needs organization has. And like maybe how, oh, I see that the children's museum could partner with GardenShare to do kids' activities with the farmer's market and present those ideas. It was just a really fun and collaborative environment that I loved being a part of.

Beth:  And then your work shifted as you moved from being a SLU PIC intern into the AmeriCorps Vista program, right? And then you shifted again when you came on full time, right?

Sonja:  Yeah. So I was only an AmeriCorps Vista for like two weeks. Another position opened up here as the outreach coordinator. So I shifted again pretty soon after I started up here. And I was able to join full time. So as part of AmeriCorps, their work is focused primarily on capacity building. So developing resources. Not a lot of direct service, which is fine, and definitely something that's needed for the organization, but I tend to thrive more-

Beth:  You're a people person.

Sonja:  I am a people person. Yeah, I love to be the one that answered the phone and be like, yeah I can help you with that, and find the resource that they need and all that stuff. So I shifted more into direct service, a lot of working with different organizations in the North Country and working with individuals to let them know what things are out there. Where is your nearest farm stand? How do you use tokens at the farmer's market if you don't have cash or if you're on SNAP, like how do you do all these things? So I focused a lot more on consumer education and community awareness of what we do and how to access all the food that's grown up here.

Sonja:  So I have really enjoyed my new position and I'm also very much enjoying my latest shift into managing the Canton farmer's market. It has been really fun. I do the token program. So if you are without cash, or if you're on SNAP, you can swipe your card at the market manager's table, which is the one that I staff. And you get tokens to use with the farmers, which helps make those non-cash payments a lot more accessible for farmers that are either older or don't want to get into the whole E commerce Square reader type of business themselves. So yeah, a wooden token? I'll take that.

Amelia:  What else goes into managing the Canton farmer's market?

Sonja:  So I make sure all the vendors know exactly what's expected of them, what our rules are at the market. I do vendor recruitment. If people are interested in signing up, I give them all the information they need. I do the placement, that's if you're in Canton and you're coming around to the farmer's market, you'll notice where we're playing around with some of the placements right now. The fence that was previously enclosing the fountain is finally gone and up and running after like five years of nothing. They've been doing a ton of construction on it and we had the unveiling ceremony on Friday, so there's water in the fountain, and it's very nice. But it's opened up a lot more space at the market for us. So we're playing around with where people are going to make it the best experience for the customers and for the vendors themselves.

Sonja:  So I do a lot of thinking about where people should go and who it makes sense to be next to each other. What sort of flow of traffic we want, and then I also just make sure that people get paid and that the customers know that they can use their card and how they can use it. And I do a lot of coordination with local nonprofits that want to set up and do customer outreach and education at the market. So we just had WIC distributing checks and the veteran's office doing some other checks distributions for purchasing at the farmer's market. But sometimes we also have the health initiative doing sunscreen and health insurance education. And the headstart programs want to reach out to families at the market. So it's been really great getting to see that post-COVID because during COVID a lot of restrictions on who could be at the market and there was a lot of like, oh, no, only vendors, nobody else. So seeing the market be a real community space and a chance for people to get connected with resources again in person has been really, really magical to watch.

Beth:  You mentioned that this is a real community effort and clearly it really is. And one of the things that I've always noticed when I would go to the market is that I would see so many different people who are connected to the St Lawrence community, whether they're faculty and staff members, students, alums, parents, this has turned into such a wonderful community effort. Do you think this is a wonderful way that St Lawrence has potentially... Not that St Lawrence University itself has engaged and given back to the community, but its members are engaging with the community.

Sonja:  Oh yeah, definitely. I see professors all the time. I see students shopping all the time and one of the best things for me is that we're fortunate enough that KDS, Kappa Delta Sigma, which is a local sorority, gets that freedom of choosing a local organization for their philanthropy, and they chose GardenShare. I often have KDS girls, the sisters, come down and help run the table, so I can go around and talk to the vendors. And they also give back to GardenShare all the time. That has been a really cool connection with St. Lawrence. I always love telling people I feel like sororities often have their national chapter that tells them which organization they're affiliated with. And we've got this local one that's such a cool story to begin with. And then they also are like directly having an impact in the community and giving back and they're actively connected with us. There are St. Lawrence folks that come to the market all the time. And I actually have this SLU Fanny pack that I use. And everyone's always like, "Did you go to St. Lawrence? Oh, I teach there," "Oh, my daughter goes there." Or, "Oh, I work there," and it's so fun to have that connection as well. Although I also get, "Do you go there?" Not anymore.

Amelia:  You're going to get that easily for another 10 years. You might have a few years underneath your belt of getting that. Just be thankful it's college that they're asking. And it'll hold you well in your thirties. This is what my mom always tells me. So Sonya, did you go to the farmer's market when you were a student?

Sonja:  Yes, I did. That was one of the perks of being here for the summers on campus was that I got to experience the farmer's market. They usually try to start mid May, but that's finals week. So I never went when I was actively in school, but once the summer was there, it was like such a nice thing to do on my lunch break. I would just go down and get a plant for my dorm room or get some fruit and sometimes they sell wine, so get a little treat for the weekend. So I was definitely a shopper and it was nice when I started working at GardenShare for SLU PIC. I got toured around the market and got training on the token programs. And that's one of the big things that we do.

Sonja:  And people there recognized me and they're like, oh, you've shopped here before. And I was like, yeah, I have. Which was really nice. The vendors definitely remember who is a frequent flyer at the market. And most of them will try to learn your name and remember what you were looking for last week or if they sold you something, they'll be like, oh, I set some aside for you this week.

Amelia:  Do you have a favorite vendor, or are you allowed to say that?

Sonja:  Oh no, they're all my favorites. Well, I won't say they are my favorites, but a favorite addition has been we've got two food trucks now. Nice to have a lunch option at the market. Especially for the vendors, they can get lunch and not have to leave the park, which has been very nice. Everyone brings a little something different and it wouldn't be the market without everybody that comes. So I'm happy to have them all there.

Beth:  I can't wait to see how it grows. And even though I've just moved to New York City for my role, it's something that I look forward to coming back and it runs well into the fall, doesn't it?

Sonja:  Oh, yeah, we go until the end of October, the last Friday of October.

Beth:  Well, I will make make sure I get up there before the end of October and stop by the market, try to find your smiling face and explore everything that all the vendors have to offer.

Sonja:  Yeah, for sure.

Beth:  I'm really curious, you've talked a little bit about how much you've loved being in the North Country in the summer and getting out in nature and really appreciating that sort of unique North Country flavor that life has here, but I'm curious. Is there anything that you'd wish you'd known before deciding to live in the North Country as a graduate? Or you knew what you were getting into?

Sonja:  I think I knew what I was getting into thanks to the summers that I spent on campus. But yeah, the first year I moved up here was definitely a little bit lonely. It is interesting being a very young adult in the North Country and trying to make friends. Everyone's either actively a student or much older. There's not a ton of young people, although I think that's changing. And it might've been just like COVID and the abundance of students sort of overtaking the other young adults that were at the bar or out and about. But I have noticed a lot more young people staying in the North Country and even SLU students that got apartments in Potsdam and stayed during the COVID. And it's been really great to see that and to see more young people stay either after college or come up here, either returning because they grew up here and then wanting to come back or staying because they went to school here. It's been nice seeing people stay.

Beth:  Do you think you would have been, so like if your freshman self had been told that you were going to be working for GardenShare after graduation, how do you think she would have reacted?

Sonja:  My freshman self? I'm not sure. My sophomore self probably would not have been surprised. Sarah Coburn who works in the Center for Career Excellence, I was talking with her because I lived with her and I was like, I really am the perfect poster child because I did a link mentorship my sophomore year with Gloria McAdam, the former director of GardenShare my sophomore year. And then junior year was involved, like going to the farmer's market, I used to stop by the table and a good friend of mine was their SLU PIC intern that year. So I stayed involved and connected a little bit. And then senior year I did the SLU PIC with them and then stayed. So I've had a connection with GardenShare for a long time.

Sonja:  And actually in my FIP, Paul Graham's Secret Life of Food class, one of my favorite classes I've taken on campus, he's also very involved with GardenShare and made us do for extra credit points, made us do their 5k that they do. So I've been involved with GardenShare for a long time, like basically since I came up to St. Lawrence. So I think she wouldn't have been surprised, but yeah, it's definitely been an interesting chain of events. It's all led culminated in my full-time job here.

Beth:  You just mentioned that you were part of the link mentorship program and I would love for you to explain a little bit about what that experience is and what it meant to you as a sophomore.

Sonja:  Yeah. I am so thankful to Sarah. I had heard about the link mentor program, the link program, and I didn't really know if it was for me. It seemed to be for people that knew what career field they wanted to go into and needed a connection in that field to start their networking. And I had no idea what I wanted to do and no idea even what career path I wanted. I at that time was still a chemistry major and had no idea what I was doing. I quickly switched to sociology. But I had no idea what I wanted to do. And it seemed to be a program for people that did know, but I remember it was probably 11:00, like the night that it was due, like at midnight.

Sonja:  And I was like, you know what? Worst thing that could happen is they just turned me down and then I'm in the same position as I was if I didn't submit it. So I filled out the application and it was just sort of like, I really don't know if this is the program for me. I don't know what I want to do with my life. I just know that these are some of my interests and that's that. Thanks in advance for consideration. I really had no idea what was going to come of it, but I submitted it. I probably submitted it at like 11:59 the night it was due. But Sarah had got back to me and she was like, I actually think I have the perfect person for you. It's this alum. She runs a local nonprofit that works a lot with farmers and food, like justice work.

Sonja:  And I was like, oh, that sounds amazing. I'd love to know her. And so I got connected with Gloria and it was a very chill experience. I was sort of like, yeah, I just want to know more about what it's like to work at a nonprofit and what it's like to work here in St. Lawrence county. I think it's a really great place and I'd love to know more about what it's like to live and work here. And we chatted a lot. At that time in my life, I was very disenchanted with the volunteer work that I had been able to do at SLU. It just sort of felt like I wasn't... I had just grown as a person and realized that the volunteer work that I had done in high school and that I continued doing a bit at SLU, it was sort of like, oh, this volunteer work is always available and what does that say about the help that I'm actually giving? I want to be working towards more sustainable solutions, more long-term solutions. I want to be playing the long game. I want to be doing things that are going to have an actual impact and not just sort of feel good activities that are fun and that help in the short term, but-

Beth:  You want to treat the wound, not put a bandaid on it.

Sonja:  Yeah. And she had a very similar philosophy and it was just a really great experience getting to hear from someone who also, I think, went through similar sort of shift in mentality and shift in values of like, okay, yeah, I'm done. I'm done putting the bandaid on and I want to start treating the wound. And so she was just a phenomenal person, just really sees the problem and get stuff done. And we talked a lot about the North Country and her experience moving back here. She's from the North Country. And we read a book together. Winnie's Closing The Food Gap, I believe. And we just treated it as like a book club and a chat. We would meet at the bookstore once a month. And talk about the chapter that we read and how it related to the North Country, which I think is very different from how a lot of link mentorships go.

Beth:  Absolutely because you were actually in the town where Gloria was living. I mean, that's such a unique experience even within the link mentorship program where many of people's mentors are in New York City or in Texas or in Boston or all over the country. So it sounds like you had a very different but unique experience for your mentorship program that helped benefit you in a variety of different ways.

Sonja:  Yeah, it was excellent. For a lot of people, it was like a really great stepping stone into finance or the stock market. And it helped to have that connection. But I think I really got a lot of education out of it and a lot of exposure to ideas that I was just sort of thinking about as a sophomore in college and thinking about not necessarily what I wanted to do, but what impact I wanted to have. And yeah, it was a phenomenal experience. Unfortunately, Gloria passed away. So our relationship sort of ended abruptly, but I'm so lucky to have known her when she was here. And yeah, I still think a lot about everything that I learned through my time with her. And now time to continue the legacy at GardenShare and just in the community doing what I can to have a positive impact and make lives better.

Beth:  Well, I think that in itself is something that you just said, just really struck a chord with me. I think that something that a lot of people at St. Lawrence have is not learning what do I want to do, it's what impact do I want to make on the world? What impact do I want? That's the question that I'm hearing more and more young alum say that I was challenged with that question, whether it was through a mentor, through a professor, the career excellence office, any of these different places. And I think that sometimes having those mentors that you want to emulate or take their legacy and continue it helps provide a framing for what you want to do. And it's so encouraging to hear that we have people like you who are making these wonderful impacts, whether it's in the local North Country community, the world community.

Beth:  We're so thankful that we have someone like you, who's continuing Gloria's legacy. Thank you so much for joining us today. I'm so thankful that we have you in the North Country continuing to make great strides and food inequality, well I should say food equality. We don't want you to make strides in food inequality. [cross talk] I meant to say food security as well. I went way off on that, but thank you so much Sonja for your great work. And we're so thankful to have you in the North Country. And so thankful that you joined us again for our conversation today.

Sonja:  Yeah. Thanks for having me.

Amelia: This has been so great. Since you live around the corner, we'll have to catch up some time. I'll have to come find you at the farmer's market.

Sonja:  I'm easy to find. I've got long red hair and I'm always at the farmer's market.

Amelia:  Well then, I got to say this was an amazing interview. I have to say though, what did you notice that was different this time?

Beth:  Well immediately, I have to think of the mic quality, I think was a little bit better this time around. Was that what you were getting at Amelia?

Amelia:  We've finally got a mic. The audio problems have been sorted.

Beth:  Yes, we're growing, we're growing. But no, it was really wonderful to hear Sonja's experiences with GardenShare, SLU PIC, and everything that she's doing here in the North Country to help with food security. And after chatting with her as somebody who decided to stay in the North Country after she graduated, I know that there are a lot of alums that are itching to come back to campus and we have a wonderful opportunity for them to do so. Amelia, take it away about the Laurentian weekend.

Amelia:  If you haven't heard of Laurentian weekend yet, we are so excited to welcome you back to campus in September next month. We are combining elements of homecoming and parents' weekend into a big, wonderful celebration of all things St. Lawrence. And that will be September 24th and 25th. And registration should be opening the week of August 9th. So be sure to be on the lookout and make sure that you register your spot as soon as you can, because I know you're all just jumping to get back to the gorgeous fall leaves campus. It'll be a special weekend for sure.

Beth:  And we're so excited to have more of Laurentians back on campus. We really have missed our Laurentian community coming back and seeing everything that St. Lawrence has to offer and engaging with our students and engaging with the faculty and staff members. So we are very much looking forward to having our visitors come.

Amelia:  For sure, for sure. Until then, bye everybody.

Beth:  See you later.

Beth:  Scarlet & Brown Stories is edited and produced by Amanda Brewer, Megan Fry Dozier, Dennis Morreale, Beth Dixon, and Amelia Jantzi.

Amelia:  Our music was written by Christopher Watts inspired by Eugenie Wright, class of '49.

Beth:  Subscribe to Scarlet & Brown stories on Apple podcasts, Spotify, and wherever you listen to podcasts.

Amelia:  If you have a story you'd like to submit to us, you can email us at connect@stlawu.edu.

Amelia:  Don't forget to subscribe, like, and leave your five star review wherever you listen to podcasts.

Amelia:  Welcome everyone to another episode of the Scarlet & Brown Stories. This is Amelia Jantzi, assistant director of Laurentian Engagement here with my cohost Beth Dixon.

Beth:  Hi, how are you doing Amelia?

Amelia:  I'm doing great. How are you?

Beth:  I'm doing well. I'm in the middle of moving down for my new position at St. Lawrence University as the executive director of New York City internships and Laurentian engagement Associate. So if you hear some boats in the background, I decided to take in a little bit of fun on the lake before I head down to the city for the semester.

Amelia:  Oh, that's awesome. So excited for this new role for you, Beth. And it's funny that you mentioned you're moving down to New York City because it reminds me of this St. Lawrence trivia fact that someone told me the other day, St. Lawrence used to have a law school in New York City.

Beth:  What when was this?

Amelia:  Yes. So in 1903, the Brooklyn Law School of St. Lawrence University was established and at its peak, it enrolled just over 3,300 students. And it was the largest law school in the country. But in 1943 St. Lawrence University and Brooklyn Law School became two separate entities, which is why we no longer have one there.

Beth:  But we did have one. That's amazing.

Amelia:  We did have one, but before we get too far down the trivia hole, we have a new interview coming up, right?

Beth:  Yes, we do. I'm very, very excited about our next interview. We are going to be talking with Dzifa Yador who's class of 2011. She was a year younger than me, and we had quite a few classes together. And so I've been able to kind of keep in touch with her and see what an exciting career she's been able to build for herself. And I can't wait to hear more about not only her St Lawrence experience, but also a little bit about what she's been doing after St. Lawrence.

Amelia:  Fantastic. Well, let's not waste any more time and jump right in.

Beth:  Sounds good to me.

Beth:  We are so excited today to chat with one of my, I want to say old classmates, but we're not that old. We're from the classes of 2010 and 2011. So, well, we have a couple of years underneath our belt, we are still young alumni at heart. I'm very excited to chat with Dzifa Yador, who comes from the great class of 2011. She was a performance and communication arts major with me. We took a few classes and she's really been able to take her SLU experience and just blossom in various different areas of the entertainment industry. And I'm very excited to welcome Dzifa Yador, to the podcast. How are you doing today, Dzifa?

Dzifa:  I am so great. I am beaming over here. It's so great going down memory lane with you, and I'm so excited to be here.

Beth:  Now are you beaming also because you're in Los Angeles and there's a lot of sunshine out there.

Dzifa:  Yes, that is also why I have given up my, I don't even know how to call it, but I've given up my stripes of New York and feeling like I actually had to put myself through the rigor of snow and the train and I gifted myself a life in Los Angeles.

Beth:  That's a great gift.

Amelia:  It's sunny in Potsdam too. So I'm feeling like we're almost as cool as LA-

Beth:  Or as hot as LA.

Amelia:  No, it's never going to be that.

Beth:  Yeah. That's great. That's great. Dzifa did you ever have an opportunity to be at St. Lawrence in the summer?

Dzifa:  I did. I actually came to visit in the summer, so I don't know who knows this, but I actually went early decision. And it was because I knew that I had to go to school within the New York state, obviously because of in state fee. So it was like, "Oh, where's the furthest place in New York, but still New York, St. Lawrence." So I was like sold. But obviously I was like, okay, I probably should see it first. So I went up, I took a bus with a friend and, did the whole transfer, the whole nine to Watertown and popped in of course there was no one there because it was summer, right. And so I was just like, all right, it'll get better, right? Like , yeah. So yes, I have been in the summer and then I also spent a summer just there as an RA and just spend the time, CA rather, that's what we call it right?

Beth:  Yes, CA the Community Assistants. You know, I completely forgot that you were a Community Assistant.

Dzifa:  Yes. Yes. I actually have never had a roommate. So I lucked up and was in Lee my freshman year. And then I became a CA for the rest of the way. And so I was in, I stayed in Lee again, and then I went to Sykes for the rest of my time.

Beth:  So Dzifa obviously, you've been up to a lot of different things since you've graduated from St. Lawrence. But before we get into those, I wanted to hear a little bit about what were, maybe some of your more meaningful experiences at St. Lawrence as a student were granted, we're now talking. And I hate to say this a decade ago. Was being a CA one of your favorite experiences, or was that something that maybe made you want to pull out some hair or something like that?

Dzifa:  Right. Well, before I answer that, I want to note your old comment earlier. Because I'm like, we're not old, we're OG's.

Beth:  That's right, we're OG's.

Dzifa:  But yeah. Being a CA was absolutely one of the highlights of, one of many highlights of being at St. Lawrence. One, I'm a people person and so it just allowed me to meet all of the people at St. Lawrence, just understanding how different I was by background diversity, different from a number of different accounts, from a lot of the student body, but also understanding the responsibility I had as a CA. And then as I essentially found myself as leader, I started taking on more leadership roles. I really do believe that I earned the trust of the student body and my peers in that role.

Dzifa:  I'd say, in addition to that was being a part of the Black Student Union I'm on the e-board and being president at a point, being able to lead that and understand what that responsibility was considering, what I knew my own experience was on the campus. And then also being able to do the fun stuff and throw those parties in the Winston room with all of the college and bring everyone together and just for a second, at least for me feel like I was back in New York and kind of reminded me of a different environment, but yeah, those are some of the highlights of my time there.

Beth:  I love hearing that. And especially the, so they don't even do Club Win or anything like that in the Winston room. I'm like, you don't know what it was like to have one of those parties in the Winston room.

Dzifa:  Literally, no idea. It's so much space, it's so underused I can go on.

Beth:  So I also wanted to know, you mentioned that obviously you were very involved with different leadership positions at St. Lawrence and one of which was on the Black Student Unions, was I'm sorry, was it the Exec council?

Dzifa:  Yeah. So we call it the e-board.

Beth:  The e-board. That's right. Yeah. Excellent. What were some of the things that when you were a student, the Black Student Union did for St. Lawrence's campus or even beyond because we're talking about a pretty homogenous rural area of New York. Were there things that you did for community outreach as well?

Dzifa:  Yeah. So I'd say like how I engage with BSU was like meeting some of the senior folks at St. Lawrence, obviously upperclassmen and them understanding and kind of taking me in as, you don't have to do this journey alone. And in going to BSU, I recognize kind of what BSU was. And it was more of a safe space. It was something that we needed to be able to feel like we could talk about what our experiences were, talk about, what maybe we wanted to see from student body that we weren't from senior leadership, all of that. So I would say it was more of an organization that poured in to the organization rather than maybe taking the external facing route to it. And yes, we did some community services and some other things, but I think it was more, admittedly in my time, more in service of making sure we were protective of the people there.

Dzifa:  I remember at a time, it was pretty early. I wanted to transfer from St. Lawrence. So I went to Dean Tolovers office and I was just like, I am having a really, really hard time. I'm probably going to have to transfer. And he's just like, I don't want to see that, you're not the only person to have gone through this and that's why I'm here. And I was probably in his office for three hours. And he really literally talked me off the ledge of not transferring. And I think from there, I really understood what it meant to kind of pay it forward by way of sharing your experience, but extending that community support to people who look like me on the campus.

Dzifa:  Because it wasn't always easy. Of course we speak about the highs, but I think it's important to talk about kind of the other side to the experience, which isn't easy and it's even outside of St. Lawrence because Canton, New York does not look like a lot of places either and you'd almost have to be there to even understand what it meant to live in Canton, New York. There was a lot there, but BSU was absolutely one of the kind of activities that I poured myself into that kept me grounded and safe at St. Lawrence.

Beth:  I'm really happy to hear that, that you were able to find your group that was able to provide you a feeling of security, protection, a safe space, people that you could turn to and know that they understood you and understood what your experience was. If I may, I have a really, one of my just moments of white privilege that actually that I'll go back to. And I think about often was when you and I were sitting in class one day, you and I sat next to each other in History of Popular Entertainment at the end of the table.

Dzifa:  That class was so good.

Beth:  I love that class. Zach Dorsey. He was a great professor. He was a visiting professor.

Beth:  But you and I sat there and I remember we were talking about something with race and regarding various different forms of popular entertainment. And I just remember you saying something like, every single time, just to give you guys an idea of what it's like to be me to be a person like me, a person of color on this campus. Every time we have a discussion of race in our classes, everybody's head turns and looks at me and expects me to say something. Everybody expects that I'm going to be the spokesperson for all black people. And that was such a moment of clarity for me that I was sitting there as a senior thinking, I had just absolutely grown and helped in all these different ways. And I'm like, you know what? I absolutely have done that. And I can't imagine what it would be like to be one of the few faces that looked like mine in a room. And then everybody turns and looks at me and expects me to just represent my race or my ethnicity or whatever the case might be in the class. So that has stuck with me for years.

Beth:  And that's something that I think I'm very thankful that I had people who had very different perspectives of the world and had very different lived experiences around me and people like you, who felt comfortable saying that because without some something like BSU, you might not have felt as comfortable speaking to that in class. And so I just wanted an opportunity to share that with you. I think that that was something that was really important, impactful for me.

Dzifa:  I just want to say thank you for that because that level of transparency and honesty for me is what will kind of keep me alive to be able to speak up because it's not always easy and especially in corporate and tech and all of that, your message is shut up and drive and it takes guts and boldness to be able to speak up also in face of the work and the face of business objectives as well. But I really appreciate that. And yeah, like I said, it's kind of my north star to continue to just speak up.

Beth:  That's what we care about most right, Amelia?

Amelia:  Absolutely. Well, I'm super curious because you talked about the impact that the Black Student Union had on your experience at St. Lawrence. And I'm curious are you still connected with the other students who were there with you and how has the support that you had as a student, has that been a part of you speaking out in roles that you've taken on in the corporate world?

Dzifa:  All of that, yes. One, I'm still in touch with so many people from the BSU, one of which is dating my own boyfriend's brother and putting it on record that she's going to be my sister-in-law soon.

Beth:  Oh yeah absolutely, wedding bells.

Amelia:  We love that.

Dzifa:  All the things, but yeah, so many other people, I was actually just on a panel for Brittany Parm who was also on the Black Student Union, who is a leader now and was then, and it was just fantastic, but yeah, so many other folks. And I think that that was what really kind of groomed me to be this leader for my community. And it's not the same as saying that I am holding the staff for it, but it's to say that once I go through these doors, I hope that it can be easier for the next person because I'm able to speak up. And because I'm able to represent myself 100%. because I had to grow into that, even after St Lawrence, my first job, I was not bringing my 100% self to work.

Dzifa:  I was just like, that's not even possible. So, it's kind of cool to say, but, you're not supposed to do that and don't let anybody tell you that. And, that's really what I thought and I was just, again, head down, do the work and, don't worry about it. And then I realized how damaging it became to my own self esteem. But then I had to look up and realize that my head was down the whole time. And I was just like, why, I deserve to be here. I am representative of myself and everybody around me and the people who come after me. And so I have a deeper responsibility besides just doing the job that pays me.

Dzifa:  And I think that that was just a turning point for me in having come out of St. Lawrence, right. Because I took on that role in St. Lawrence, but it felt more out of survival rather than like, okay, you need a job, right. But also if that didn't work out, I can go to another place and maybe it'd be a little better there. So I didn't actually have to have that responsibility, but it was an awakening for me and all of that. But again, it's a 25/8 job and it doesn't stop.

Beth:  Speaking of your first role, how did you get your first job? I mean, you would have graduated in the very, probably end of the economic recession. So I imagine it, wasn't just as easy as maybe a few years prior, it could have been to get a job. Did you utilize St. Lawrence resources or connections? How did you go about getting your first job?

Dzifa:  Absolutely. I would say that I, and I was thinking about it as we were talking about BSU and I'd be re missed if I didn't talk about all of the allies that I've found at St. Lawrence as well, Beth, you being one of them, but also the folks at the career center. And I think that those, that was really a community of women really, that I was surrounded by, but people who believed in me saw my leadership and just really wanted to be able to help me in the face of what they saw me going through and just this, what can we do for you?

Dzifa:  Because I was marching in there like, is there a producer internship here? And they're like, what? And so, [laughter] okay, well how do I get it done? Just help me. And I think we both challenged each other because I recognize how ambitious I was in what I wanted for myself and that early on, but also how ambitious it felt for leadership at St. Lawrence to kind of wrap their head around.

Dzifa: Because I think I was surrounded by a lot of government majors and maybe professors and, how would you describe it, I don't know, I'm not even trying to stereotype these roles, but maybe the things that would be in a textbook as to what a job you could get is. And so to kind of paint that picture for St. Lawrence that's to say, I want to be in entertainment, help me get there was really important for me to lean on the career services team.

Dzifa:  So yeah, they guided me through putting a grant together, which allowed me some money to be able to go back to New York, to travel from the Bronx where I was living to Times Square, 42nd street to go to Viacom building 1515 Broadway, Monday through Friday to have the summer internship because it wasn't paid.

Dzifa:  So I didn't have money for lunch. I'm a college student, right. And so the Metro cards, the whole nine. And so that was really what gave me the opportunity to take the internship. Because if not for that, I wouldn't have been able to do that. I would have had to just get a job to work and not a job that could afford me some visibility into what my career path could be. And so I'm forever grateful to the career services team for guiding me through all of that. And it was immediate and that internship with MTV on it, promos that I was just like, absolutely, this is it. And it wasn't just sold, as I said earlier with St. Lawrence. But like I felt my heart connect with the job in that regard. And I've been in it ever since.

Beth:  I think that's so fascinating. And as somebody who is now transitioning into a new role at St. Lawrence where I'm moving to New York City in July to work as the executive director of New York City internships, and, I'm even more like, Ooh, I have to pick Dzifa's brain a little bit more because as we get into this. I think one of the things that I've definitely seen a huge improvement on is not only how many programs that we have in terms of funding and pathways to getting an internship. But we do have this New York City semester program, now, that students can go in the fall and the spring and have a full-time internship. And all I can think of in my head is, oh man, if Dzifa had had this opportunity, but then I'm like, Dzifa paved that way for herself anyway. And then was your first job after St. Lawrence at Viacom then?

Dzifa:  Yes. And that literally is what catapulted the whole career journey. But outside of that, I don't know how else you actually get in the door. And that's what I tell folks all the time. You have to try out these internships and try out these industries because it's really hard even just coming in at entry level because still people want to know what you've done unpaid before the pay thing. And so really take advantage of all of the resources that all of the colleges afford in that regard.

Amelia:  I'm so curious, Dzifa we all know that entertainment is not the easiest gig to break into and clearly you faced some challenges and really met them. What drove your passion for breaking into that industry, especially at such an uncertain economic time.

Dzifa:  A couple of things. One, I have an older brother who is both my brother and my mentor. I've never had a formal mentor, but I've been afforded an older brother who has worked in entertainment so good.

Dzifa:  Love you Della. But went through entertainment, marketing, I mean all of the kind of entertainment houses, and I've learned so much from him and it was him and his own boldness. That was just like, what do you want to do? Think about it. Nevermind kind of what everybody else is telling you to do or what you see other people around you kind of close your eyes and envision yourself somewhere. And I tell this story all the time, but I remember I was sitting just watching television and it kind of just dawned on me and how the commercials made, it was just kind of, it was something intricate that I was just like, wow.

Dzifa:  So I was like, yeah, I'm curious to know how that works. And I think that, that was where I went down the rabbit hole of like, okay, well what are the jobs out there? And I think that's what sparked my interest. And that is what I continue to tell people who are interested in this field is, you have to go down that rabbit hole because there's so many definitions to what the entertainment industry is.

Dzifa:  I don't work in music. I work in content, I don't work in television. I'm an audio, not video. There's so many different definitions. I'm not a talent Booker, all of these things are still even housed under entertainment. And so it's really about finding what excites you the most and then doing the research to see who else is doing that job out there, that it fits you. And what are some of the things that inspire you and kind of wake you up inside. So much so that it's a job, but hopefully it doesn't feel like it. And I was really fortunate enough to land on that and I'm humbled and never forget, and also recognize that that doesn't happen for everyone.

Beth:  That's really great to hear, because I think a lot of students and one of the things that I've noticed, even just in working with the students that will be going on the New York City semester for next semester, which is officially a go, which we're very excited about in this post COVID world.

Beth:  One of the things that they're thinking about is, I have to kind of remind them that this is an internship, this isn't the job that you're going to have for the rest of your life. What are the things that you're going to learn in this job that can help you break into whichever areas, offices, corporations, fields that you want to go into, but just remembering that in addition to the hard skills that you're learning, your soft skills are just equally as important. How to be a professional in any given office space I think is really what will set them apart in many ways. The work that we're doing right now and cover letters or of resumes, I'm sorry, for their internships is very helpful.

Dzifa:  Yeah. Even down to email etiquette, I mean, that is huge. That's grammar for people, but email etiquette is, I cringe sometimes.

Beth:  Reply all to everything, right. That's what it, no-

Dzifa:  You all should see my face right now.

Beth:  So Dzifa, one of the things that you mentioned and that we haven't really had an opportunity to talk about is that you currently work at Spotify and you are working with podcasts, right?

Dzifa:  I am. And it's a very, very exciting time. One, not only for myself to be at Spotify, but just an exciting time for Spotify, just being an industry leader in this audio space. And yeah, it's also not how I started at Spotify either. And I think that that's part of the ambitious and kind of bullish nature that I approached my own life and my own journey. And I think that's all how we should enable ourselves to think about our own lives. And that's kind of the definition of taking the bull by its horns and living the life that you want to live. But I went into Spotify as a project manager assisting with, well more than assisting, but literally spearheading the original video for the Rap Caviar playlist. So we did that for some time. Spotify eventually moved away from video and turns to audio.

Dzifa:  And so we obviously adopted some of the shows. I launched Michelle Obama podcasts, the Harry Potter at Home reads, Son of a Hitman, Winds of Change, I managed Joe Button before that was a bit of a nightmare. And those were all really exciting for me, but I just had that awakening again. And I think these are things that kind of continue to spark in me. I am now not ignoring God. And knowing that this is probably just my calling, so just receive it every time. But I just had this moment that I was like, we're moving so aggressively into audio, but it's also easy to ignore kind of all of the different voices in audio considering what the history of audio is and radio, right. And so kind of where are those voices and how are we going to seek them out and who will be responsible for that?

Dzifa:  And so I reached out to my manager and who I'm forever indebted to not only for hiring me, but also just believing in me. And I was just like, I really want to stand up leading what black content looks like at Spotify in the audio space. And she believed in me and said, you can absolutely do that. I can see you as a creative. You lend your sensibilities to everything that you do. You're a leader. You come from the strategic kind of mindset and business grounded sensibility. And so do it.

Dzifa:  And in three months I was in this new role that I'm currently in as a supervising creative producer, able to lead that within the frequency brand, which is one of our newer ones, which is dedicated to celebrating total black expression through music, podcasts, talent, all of the things in addition to working with some really, really great partners.

Dzifa:  And so it really does feel like a dream job in that. I am able to kind of take on the responsibility that again, I believe that God has bestowed on me, but also something that I don't take lightly and stepping up to the plate for the job. And it's making sure that these global companies or any company that I work for, anyone that I'm working with even at an individual level understands the importance of the tiers of diversity. And we're not just talking about color here. And so that's kind of how I approach all things. Yeah. Like I said, it's really exciting to be at Spotify. Being in Los Angeles, something that I'd never thought would happen. You know, I was ready to live and die by New York and like, yeah, here I am.

Amelia:  Well, it's interesting you talking about your dream job and you just ooze passion this, you're so excited to talk about this. And I really curious what you would tell, going back to your student self, wanting to transfer, what would you tell her now?

Beth:  Great question.

Dzifa:  So good. The first thing that comes to mind is this too shall pass. And I have felt that kind of sense of needing to give up because it was just too uncomfortable. Even past that moment of wanting to transfer from St. Lawrence. And it was needing to recognize that this too shall pass, and that, this is just a phase in all of it, exactly what they say around just weathering the storm. I would say that because I think that that is what continues to keep me going. Like I said, it's not easy. Going up against corporate giants and not just doing the work but, forcing their hand on the number of conversations. It's not easy work, but it's necessary and there will be hard times, but they'll pass.

Beth:  And if you had any suggestions, not only for your past self, but for current students or future students attending St. Lawrence, whether it be about their experience at St Lawrence or what they do afterwards, what would that advice be for them?

Dzifa:  I'd say maybe two things. One, get as comfortable with being uncomfortable as you can being, because the only constant is change in everything that we do. The best spot to be as uncomfortable. And I think that that is where you'll find your best self in all of the nuance and really get lost in that detail. My second piece of advice would be challenge anything that doesn't feel right. We have instinct, we have gut and we have a voice and we are all capable of enabling ourselves to use our voice and to speak up and not just look to the person who may be the oppressed to do it on behalf of them, but just everyone kind of using their own voice to speak up at any time and challenge the system.

Beth:  That's great. That's amazing.

Beth:  If you had one thing that could have helped you in your SLU experience that you wish, whether it's a program, a center, something physical or something that is just provides comfort, whatever it could be that you didn't have that you wish current or future students could have at St. Lawrence, what do you think that it would be?

Dzifa:  You asked me this question, or rather you brief me on this question and it's been sitting with me for a while and I was just like, I don't know that it's a physical thing. But I have always felt that I wish the kind of staff and faculty leadership were to be more ingrained with the student body in a way they understood, kind of the nuance and the difficulties and kind of the conversations that were happening on the ground. I'd always felt that we relied a bit too heavily on Thelmo to be literally the judge and the jury of everything. And I appreciate kind of the student runness of it, but sort of certain degree, you kind of need somebody to be the tie breaker of this, right. And to see above it and have that bird's-eye view and to protect kind of the morale and energy on the ground.

Dzifa:  And so to a certain extent with still protecting the autonomy and kind of safety and privacy of students, I wonder what could be done to really allow the faculty to reach down a bit more and maybe offer up some more opportunities to hear from them. And again, that was during my time. And my understanding is that things have far kind of exceeded my own expectations of where St Lawrence would be. And so I am just always excited to hear all of that, but if I think about my own time and where I was, I think I could have benefited from that.

Amelia:  What are those things that you've seen St Lawrence do since you've graduated that you're really excited about?

Dzifa:  So, I actually, I've been fortunate enough to be at succumb and talk at various kind of panels, or even just to lend my own piece of advice, to conversations and things that are happening on campus. And of course I hadn't graduated at the time, but it doesn't sound like those conversations were ever happening or that it wasn't faculty and staff initiating those conversations to be able to hear from alumni to understand what is it that we didn't get, right. What can we do better? We want more students and we want you guys to still feel connected to the school and be engaged. How can we help? And so I think in those engagements and hearing from so many other people so often, and just, I feel their passion and I feel their unyielding support to the communities that are maybe underserved on campus. And they're trying to figure out how best to serve them. And I feel the work. And I think that that is what I feel inspired by. And I'm just in awe because I know it's not easy.

Beth:  It isn't, and it shouldn't be. And I think that that's the best part is, you said that we need to all be kind of comfortable with being uncomfortable or helping that for students, but it goes all the way around. If you're at a higher education institution, especially one that puts a lot of effort into learning about different perspectives of the world and teaching people to be lifelong learners, then we absolutely need to know that this isn't easy and we would love to make it easy. And there are ways to do that, but it's ever changing. And so I think that I'm happy to hear that you feel like that is improved. And I think that that is absolutely a goal of the university to continue. And it's not like we went, okay, we did it. Wipe our hands of it and that's it. This is something that's ever changing and evolving. And it's good to hear that, 10 years out that you're feeling like there's been vast improvements where from your time as a student.

Dzifa:  Absolutely. Yeah. And even just the positive sentiment around the alumni community as well, even the folks that I told you, I still keep in contact with, I think about what our conversations were about St. Lawrence and that's almost fresh out and kind of where we are now. And the sentiment has 100% improved. And I know it's a Testament to the work that St Lawrence continues to do, even after we've left.

Beth:  I can't think of a better place to end this conversation than with that sentiment. So before we go, though, I do want to, again, thank you for your time, Dzifa. I know that again, you are a very busy, passionate, hardworking individual. And so we really appreciate the time that you've taken to speak with us today. If you were willing to be found on social media, whether it be your LinkedIn or Instagram or anything like that, where could people find you?

Dzifa:  Yes. Feel free to hit me up on LinkedIn Dzifa Yador is my name. Should I spell it out? I should probably spell it out.

Beth:  Go ahead and spell it out. We'll also have it listed in such so people can see it in print, but-

Dzifa:  Okay. I'll save you guys then see it in print, but it's, Dzifa pronounced "G-Fa".

Beth:  Wonderful, wonderful, excellent. And any last minute tips that you have for us as we launch our podcast here, I think that's the hard hitting question that Amelia and I want to know.

Dzifa:  One, I'll reiterate by say, you guys are doing a fantastic job. I had the most fun, truly. And I mean, Amelia, as you've noted the passion and the smile is coming out and the energy that you guys are giving me. And so this is a really great time. So thank you guys.

Dzifa:  I would say one, don't ever forget to have fun, right? Because you want your guests to have fun with you, and this should all be fun at the end of the day.

Dzifa:  And then two never lose sight of your audience and why you're doing this and the intention of it. And I think it's easy and it could be set for anything that we do to kind of get lost in your own opinion or your own intent, but understanding who your audience is and why you're doing this and not losing sight of that. And I'd say that to anyone who was hosting a show, I think is important, as an important north star.

Beth:  Well, thank you. Well, keep that in mind for sure. And I think that, this is only our second podcast, but I don't want to speak for Amelia, but I will say that I've already had a blast and I can't wait each month to talk with the next Laurentian on our list. So-

Amelia:  Absolutely.

Dzifa:  I'll be listening.

Beth:  Excellent. Thank you so much, Dzifa. You're such an inspiration for us clearly, and I'm sure that everyone out there listening will have had a great time just being able to sit in on this fantastic conversation.

Dzifa:  Thank you guys. This is great.

Beth:  Well, there you have it. What a great interview with Dzifa Yador. Amelia, what were some of your favorite takeaways from the interview?

Amelia:  Oh my goodness. How do I choose just one? I was absolutely blown away by Dzifa. I tell you she was such an inspiration for me, and I'm sure to so many people listening of how she moved forward in as a student and in her career, and just has so much vibrancy and love for life. And I think that that definitely inspired me.

Amelia:  But I was also really struck by how Dzifa both loved St. Lawrence while still recognizing where she would wish some things about her student experience different and because she loves St. Lawrence so much, she wants more for future students that doesn't take away her ability to love St. Lawrence.

Beth:  I think that that is a really important point. I think that obviously when you care about an institution, it's not only about recognizing all the wonderful things about of it, but also the areas that could be improved or things that maybe impacted you in different ways. Not always in the most positive ways and hoping that for future students. I think that that's something that all Laurentian's share and I loved how she was able to share her experience and be very candid about her experience, both at St. Lawrence and what she's experienced afterwards.

Amelia:  Absolutely. Yes. I couldn't have said it better. So it was a fantastic conversation and I'm excited to see what she does next. I mean, she's going to rock the world.

Beth:  No, she really is. I mean, she is fantastic. I am so happy that we had an opportunity to showcase her voice and her story. Another wonderful Scarlet & Brown Story podcasts. I like to say that as if we've done 50 of them, we have done two, but we've just had two really great interviews. I feel very energized about this.

Amelia:  Oh yes. And we have a great one coming up, so make sure that you listen to our next episode in August, we'll be talking to Sonja Jensen class of 2019 and she's a firecracker. It'll be great.

Beth:  She's awesome. Yes. Yes. And as I recall, she used to work in the office with us over in Laurentian Engagement and Annual Giving. So it'd be great to catch up with her and hear all about what life has been like post St. Lawrence over the past couple of years.

Amelia:  For sure. So with that, we'll see you next month. Everyone.

Beth:  Scarlet & Brown Stories is edited and produced by Amanda Brewer, Megan Fry Dozier, Dennis Morreale, Beth Dixon, and Amelia Jantzi.

Amelia:  Our music was written by Christopher Watts. Inspired by Eugene Wright, class of 1949.

Beth:  Subscribe to Scarlet & Brown Stories on Apple podcasts, Spotify, and wherever you listen to podcasts.

Amelia:  If you have a story you'd like to submit to us, you can email us at connect@stlawu.edu.

[THEME MUSIC]

AMELIA: Welcome everyone to the very first episode of the new Laurentian podcast, Scarlet & Brown Stories. My name is Amelia Jantzi, and I am the assistant director of Laurentian Engagement working mainly with our affinity groups. And I am delighted to be joined by my cohost BETH.

BETH: Hi, I'm Beth Dixon, class of 2010, as well as masters in 2018. I'm an executive director of the New York City Internships and Laurentian Engagement associate. And I'm very excited to be working with Amelia on this new podcast adventure with our various Laurentian community members.

AMELIA: Yes, we are so excited about this opportunity to share stories of what St. Lawrence means to so many members of our community, to staff and faculty, to students, to alumni. As we dig into this journey to try to figure out what is St. Lawrence, what at St. Lawrence has heart does that mean? And to see how it plays out in so many different lives and what a better time to kick off such an exploration than during the Laurentian celebration, and we hope that you have a fantastic time connecting with your classmates and fellow Laurentians in your milestone, virtual gatherings, in your lectures, in so many of the opportunities coming your way.

BETH: Yes.

AMELIA: [crosstalk] if you want to tell us a little bit about what our listeners will hear over the next little while?

BETH: Absolutely. I think this is a wonderful time. What we wanted to do is kick off our first interview with somebody that we know is newer to the community, but has had a wealth of experience over the past couple of years. So we're going to be interviewing for our first podcast Hagi Bradley, who was our new... Although maybe I should say newer, since she's been here almost for two full years, vice-president in Dean of student life, Hagi Bradley. Hagi comes through us from Earlham College and joined us in the summer of 2019. And of course, coming into summer of 2019 meant he got half of a normal year before the coronavirus pandemic hit. So I'm really interested to hear a little bit more about what he has to say about his experience thus far, why he likes the North Country, what attracted him to come to St. Lawrence and hear a little bit more about that St. Lawrence feeling and experience from his perspective.

AMELIA: Definitely. I think we'll hear a little bit about Hagi's personality. Maybe his love of Yoda and perhaps some of his favorite parts of the North Country. I hear he's a big waterfalls fan, so be sure to be listening for that.

BETH: Well, he certainly came to the right place for waterfalls. We'll say that much.

AMELIA: Definitely. Well Beth what do you say, should we jump right in?

BETH: Absolutely. So without further ado, here's our interview with vice president and Dean of student life Hagi Bradley. 

[MUSIC INTERLUDE]

BETH: We are so excited to introduce our first guest for the Scarlet & Brown Stories Podcast. We are going to be chatting with our vice president and Dean of student life Hagi Bradley also known for quite a few things on campus Amelia. He's known for, his pre COVID Hagi hugs. He's known for his love of Yoda and all things Yoda, all things good in the force, as well as walking his dog Boudreaux around campus and allowing some students to do that sometimes too. Please welcome to our podcast HAGI. Hagi how are you doing today?

HAGI: I'm doing great. Thank you for having me today. I'm excited to be here. And all those things you said are very, very, very, very accurate. Yes.

BETH: [crosstalk] when you're on like Zoom calls and such, it always says like, "Dean Yoda."

HAGI: Yes it does. And students will call me that. And it's interesting. I love it. I've gotten over the years a number of Yoda gifts. I get all kinds of things left in my office. I still have parents from many years ago that send me Yoda things all the time. I just got some Yoda cookies earlier week-

BETH: Yoda cookies?

HAGI: ... yeah. She sent me Yoda cookies, gluten-free Yoda cookies that a mom sent me. And so-

BETH: [crosstalk] nice.

HAGI: ... yeah, I get all kinds of stuff and it's just really great because I do love Yoda and he's just so wise and uses his powers for good.

BETH: Just like you have been doing on campus since you arrived almost two years ago now?

HAGI: Almost two years ago, it'll be two years in July, yes.

BETH: I really feel like it's just been so quick. I think part of that probably is because of COVID. We didn't lose a year as you were well aware we did not lose that year, but I know that you and your staff have been working very, very hard over the past year to try to make the St. Lawrence experience the best it can be in and out of the classroom for students returning to campus. But before we get a little bit into that portion of our conversation with you, I wanted just to hear a little bit about your background in higher education and what inspired you to continue working with students throughout your career?

HAGI: Well, I grew up in Louisiana and graduated high school in Louisiana, went to school to a small liberal arts college in Jackson, Mississippi, and I just loved my experience there. I was very involved, I just loved it. And I was supposed to go to law school and something just didn't feel right. So there was a job opening that just happened to come open in admissions, and I went and applied. I had been working with admissions for all four of my years doing tours, and housing students and just being on panels and I loved it. And so I was fortunate enough to get that job. And I worked there for two years and I absolutely knew that I loved working with students and I love their college experience and exposing them to that. So then I went on to LSU and I worked in Res Life and I did that for a year.

HAGI: And during that year, the Greeks had a number of problems in Greek life. So they tapped me to come in and make those changes. And I started working with those leaders of those organizations, building trust, building relationships, and really showing them how doing things the better way and doing things the right way could make them a stronger organization. And it was great. I did end up leaving for a year and going to Bowling Green State University and helping them to make some cultural changes.

HAGI: And while I was there, LSU called me up and said, "You started something and didn't finish. So we would like for you to come back." So I went back and within a year we were the top award winning Greek community in the Southeast and all of the Southeast. So we made a number of culture changes, and I really liked it.

HAGI: And then I went into... While the first time I was there, I got my master's in political science. And then the second time decided to go full time into a PhD program in sociology. And so I did that. And then I ended up teaching for a number of years. I loved it, loved teaching, but I really did want to get back to helping develop students outside the classroom and really helping show that there is learning that goes on outside the classroom. So I went back into student affairs, went to one of the Purdue campuses and worked there for a number of years, making some changes there and creating some new things. And then I went to Sewanee: University Of The South, and I was there for five years, working with their Greek community to make a number of changes.

BETH: You were deemed Dean of fun at Sewanee, right?

HAGI: Yes, I was the Dean of fun. That is what the students called me. And I loved it and I embraced it. It was wonderful for me because now while we were making changes and doing positive things and really telling them things that they couldn't do, they still saw that I cared about them and that, yes, I wanted them to have fun. I just wanted them to do it safe. And for me, those are two of the biggest things. I love students having fun. I want them to have fun as much as they can, but I also want them to be safe. I always want students to be safe. I want them to learn. I want them to develop and grow so that when they leave college, they can look back on their experiences and say, "Oh my gosh, I had such a great time. That was an amazing time. I learned so much. I grew so much." And to me that is so important. And I embraced that tittle.

BETH: I feel like you still might have that title at St. Lawrence. Even in COVID times I know that the experience hasn't been exactly the same of what people have been hoping for, for their St. Lawrence experience. But I think that people, and especially the students really look to you as this fun leader on campus, somebody that they can really connect with and who's accessible. And I think that that is something that has really shown through since you've joined our campus community.

HAGI: Well, thank you. Those are two of the most important things to me in this role, because you are the Dean of students, and that means you have to be accessible for students. You have to be available and you also have to be able to identify with them. So you have to keep up with things that are going on in society, things that are going on in young people's lives, and you have to talk to them, you have to be willing to listen. When they say, "Nobody seems to care about me, when I'm talking about X, Y, Z." That hurts. That hurts for them. And I don't want to be seen as a person that is not listening to them and it's not caring about. So to me those are two of the most important things.

HAGI: That's why when a student calls or a student texts me or a student emails me, I try to give back to them and the student wants to meet, I want to meet with them and I want to have that time, and I want to listen to them and hear what their concerns are and address those concerns. Not just blow them off. And to me, that's so important in my role. And I believe that's what's helped me over the years be so successful.

BETH: That and all the Yodas.

HAGI: Well, yeah. All the Yoda, of course. I mean, the Yoda is standing in the window with a sign it says, "Watching over you, I am." Come on now, Yoda's got to be watching over us all, so, yeah.

BETH: Of course. So, I remember when you interviewed for the position and came to campus and we had open sessions for faculty and staff, what really grabbed my attention is that you said, "I have the same feeling on St. Lawrence's campus for interviewing for this role that I did going to my undergraduate school and touring." What is that feeling to you, and maybe one about St. Lawrence brought about that feeling? Do you still feel it now?

HAGI: I do still feel it now, even after COVID and lock down and everything we've been through, I do still feel it. When I came to campus much like when I went to my undergraduate campus and I started touring and I started meeting people, I felt it. I knew that that's where I belong. I was like, "Oh my God, these people have been waiting for me, and now I'm here. And I just need them to offer me this job so I can really be here." One of the tests that I gave all the schools that I interviewed at was, "I'm going to speak to everyone that I pass along the way. If they speak back, then I know that that's a community that I want to be a part of." And when I came here and I applied that test and everyone spoke back and everyone responded, everyone smiled and people held doors open, I knew that this was where I belong.

HAGI: And now that I'm here, I feel it even more. I love the area. I love the location. I love being this close to the Adirondacks. I'm really sad that the Canadian border is closed right now. Ottawa is my jam. I love Ottawa. I'll be like, "Oh, I want dinner at my favorite restaurant. I'm going to go to Ottawa this evening and get dinner and then come home back." I love that.

BETH: Yeah, what's your favorite restaurant though?

HAGI: It's called the Wandering chicken in Ottawa. And it is awesome because they have a lot of gluten-free stuff with my celiacs, it's great. I was able to eat poutine.

BETH: Ooh.

HAGI: ... up there, and it was delicious and they make delicious drinks. They have ribs and chicken, and like they just had all this comfort food that I identify with being from Louisiana, like, "Oh my gosh, this is a part of Louisiana right here in Ottawa." And so I pop up there all the time and I just love going in any given workday week and just pop up there and get something to eat and come home back. And I love it.

BETH: I love when we hear about leaders on campus really taking advantage of the area that we're in, not just sitting at home or not only doing things that are on campus, because I think that's a big part of attending St. Lawrence, is this idea that you get to explore the North Country. You get to go to Canada, you get to... If you want to pop over Vermont and go visit Burlington, it's easy.

HAGI: Correct. When my mom came to visit last year, we popped over to Burlington. But then we also went to the Ben & Jerry's to the plant and got to take a tour. And I mean, it was just so fascinating and she came in the fall. So she got to see all the leaves. And this year I want to go see people make maple syrup, that just fascinates me. And it's just so exciting. And I got to go pick apples. And these are things that this area offers and this summer with COVID, I can go to my music festivals, which I had mapped out my music festivals back in December. So I was kind of sad when COVID hit. So I decided, I like waterfalls. I love waterfall. And when I interviewed, I actually asked Bill Fox, I said, "I have a weird question, are there waterfalls?"

HAGI: And he was like, "Yeah, there are quite a few waterfalls." And I was like, "Okay, excellent." I'm sure he thought this is weird, but I just love the peace that it brings me when I hear the water falling. And so this summer I got to go hike 34 waterfall and just sit and look at them and just take them all in. And it's so amazing to me. That's something that this area offers that I never gotten to have in any of the other places I've lived. And this is my seventh school working year. And I never got to have waterfalls that I could just go and try then hit up three or four or five in a day. I understand there are 2000 waterfalls in New York, so I've got plenty more to go hit up. So that's just exciting. And my nephew moved in with me two months ago and he loves it up here too. He said, he really enjoys it, he didn't know what to expect and he's happy to be here.

BETH: Well, both of you and your nephew have come from areas that don't necessarily have the winters that we have had. How have you found adjusting to going out and doing things, a pretty let's see chilly time of year when there's maybe not the nicest time to go see waterfalls because they might be frozen?

HAGI: Yeah, chilly is a cute word, is straight up cold and we call it that. We go ahead and accept. It's cold not chilly. It's cold.

BETH: And we call it that. We go ahead and accept it's cold. Not chilly. It's cold.

BETH: Just call it how it is.

HAGI: Just call it what it is. But like everyone else, we layer up.

BETH: One of the things that I wondered is are you at Bill Short level of comfort in the cold? So for those that don't know, bill short, who is our director of HEOP here on campus does not put on a coat over his short sleeve shirt until it's at least below zero. So have you reached that level of polar bear?

HAGI: I don't think anyone can really reach Bill Short's level of polar bear. I will look out the window from my office sometimes and be like, "That poor man needs a jacket, a coat, a long sleeve, something." So, no, I am not at that level, but I will wear lighter jackets now and long sleeves. As long as I have a long sleeves and a lighter jacket, I'm good to go.

BETH: Perfect. So one of the things that you mentioned is some of the stuff that you're able to do here at St. Lawrence that you haven't been able to experience at other universities and campuses. So I'm curious, what are some of the other things that you've experienced here? I mean, obviously besides COVID we know that that didn't happen at any of your other universities, but what are some of the things that you've been able to either take advantage of or have a different experience with now that you're here at St. Lawrence?

HAGI: It's just all been really great, even having COVID and working with our students, we didn't know what to expect, but to see our students make it and to see our students beat COVID, that meant so much to me, that was very powerful to me. And being able just to reach out to them and do check-ins and do mental health check-ins and talk about mental health openly with them, that has also been very wonderful because the comments that I've gotten back from students have been just so heartfelt. And for them to say, "Thank you for being so honest and saying COVID is difficult on you too, and it's affecting your mental health, then we all need to do things to ensure that our mental health stays well during COVID." For me to be that vulnerable for our students, it really impacted them.

HAGI: And it was powerful. And for me to even be able to give Hagi hugs at commencement this year. So many of them when they got to me at the end of the line, they were like, "Can I give you a Hagi hag now? Can I please get one?" And I'm like, "Yes." And to be able to give those was great. But to see things that students do here, like being able to go to Titus last year before COVID hit was great. And being able to see Rail Jam, I loved Rail Jam and watching students go out there and do those tricks and enjoy those things and really being a part of this community and being accepted as a part of this community has been phenomenal. Being a role model for our students of color, but also for all of our students is really what I set out to do.

HAGI: And my methods seem to be really working well here, focusing a lot of attention on mental health and mental well-being. That's very important to me. And being able to hire a counselor of color to bring here, that's been working with students who are international students of color, and she has LGBTQ plus experience, has been phenomenal. Having Tara Tent be our director of counseling. That's been great because she wants to move things forward as well. We are looking to partner with The Jed Foundation starting in August and what The Jed Foundation is, is the largest and best known organization out there, or dealing with young people and their mental health, their mental wellbeing and suicide prevention. We're going to do a four year partnership with them to where they work with us to make cultural changes, but also to write an entire strategic plan for how we deal with our mental wellbeing.

HAGI: We're about to announce and post a position for a director of wellness and wellness education so that somebody can work with our students and pull together all of the great things that we do on this campus so that students are aware of all the things that go on, on campus and can do some educational programs and some fun things with students to really educate them on all the things that they need to know at this point in their life as they are growing up to be adults out there in the world. All of that to me, it just gives me chills as I talk about it, because all of that is for the student, it's for the betterment of the students and it's for that development of the student. And it comes from me listening to the students say, "These are the things that we need, and these are the things that we need to be focusing on. These are the things that we're missing."

HAGI: And so really being able to spend that time with our students and listen to them and even in the dining hall and just sit at a table and talk to them about issues and walk through campus and be able to stop and talk to them, it's amazing. And even when they were playing ultimate Frisbee and I would walk past and they pause the ultimate Frisbee game and say, "All right, everybody say hey to Hagi." And I'm like, "I love y'all so much. It's so wonderful." And it just feels good. And I know that we have a lot more work to do. And I'm here for that. I've told many people, "This is my last move." I've moved seven schools. And I finally found my home. I found the place that I belong and I found the place that I want to be until I retire. As long as St. Lawrence and the students will have me, then plan on being here for the community.

BETH: I think that's fantastic. And one of the things that really strikes me is not only the work that you've done, but how you've listened to students say, "These are the things that we need." One of which was really looking at those who have marginalized identities and having representation in the counseling center, and honestly representation across campus through faculty and staff and other services is really important as well. And given that the problems that our society has had for a long time, but that have come to light especially over the past year, last year with George Floyd, with COVID, with all of these different things that we have had to experience, the St. Lawrence experience itself obviously adjusts and changes as well. So from your perspective, what is something that you wish SLU alumni knew about what it's like to be a student in 2021?

HAGI: It's very different from when they were here. Our society has changed. Our world has changed, and we have to adapt and change with that. And in the past they may not have seen that response, or they may not have seen the person in my role so visibly, but for me, I have to be because I cannot do this job if I am not. And I said that during my interview, I said, "If you're looking for somebody who's going to come in heavy handed, kicking students out and this and that, then I'm not the person, but if you want somebody that's going to get to know your students and really respond to their needs and respond to the things that they are feeling and the things that they are experiencing, then I am the one for your job." Because George Floyd and all of these things this summer, COVID, they impacted me heavily.

HAGI: There were days I just I was like, "I don't know if I can make it." And I know that students feel the same way. And looking up and studying things of how we can improve our situations is something that we have to do. We have to constantly be learning and we have to constantly be open to learning and learning new things. Last night, I got to go to a wonderful webinar where some trans students presented and talked about their experiences. That was great for me because I got to learn. And for me to be able to learn more from them and their experiences and I plan reaching out to all of them today and say, "I want to talk to you. I want to know more about your experience. I want you to tell me more so that we can ensure that we're meeting your needs and keeping you safe, and that you're having a fun time as well. And that you're not constantly battling against these pressures and evils that are going on in society. How can we best address these issues?"

HAGI: And it's going to take us time. It's not something that we can just snap our finger and make changes, but over time we can make changes and we can do that together. And I invite all students of any type because I want to know all students experience, and I want to know how we can best meet their needs. And yeah, sometimes there are things that stand in the way that we can't necessarily just make those changes like students want. And I try to explain that to students and I try to be open and honest with them and let them know, "This is the reason we can't do this in that way." And then they're like, "Oh, I didn't realize that." And I think that honesty and that openness with students and with others in our community will help us to move past some of these things and to be able to deal with them head on. But we at St. Lawrence are going to work to go ahead and resolve.

BETH: I know that what you have said in the past too is that honesty and transparency is so important. So it's really great to hear you reiterate that here. It's important for alumni students, faculty staff, everybody to know that there is a transparent message on campus, and that if you have questions that you have somebody that you can talk to who's willing to be as open as they can about situations, so our students are really lucky to have you.

HAGI: Thank you.

AMELIA: I want to jump in off of something that Beth said sort of bringing up that this is a great message for not just our students, but for our alumni as well. And since we do have alumni listening, I'm really curious about how you see alumni helping and supporting work and making sure that the voices and the lives of all students are heard and meaningful?

HAGI: Oh my gosh. That is a amazing question. And I think alumni can play such an important role in all of this, mentoring or coming back to talk to students about what life is like after college and being open and honest with students saying, "It's really difficult when you have to pay all these bills and you're looking at your check and you're looking at the bills and you're going, all right, well, I guess that's all I'm doing this month is paying bills. I don't get to go out and have all this fun." And sometimes you have to do things in work that you don't necessarily enjoy or want to do. And alarms can really come back and deliver that message. And they don't have to physically be here. They can come back through their words even, talking to the magazine, talking to the newspaper, talking to us about these things, but they can also be mentors for our young people.

HAGI: And they can help guide our young people and show them that once they get out, "Here's some possibilities that you can go into." Those are always very important. And I encourage alum to reach out to my office to find ways to help. We kicked off... During COVID actually we celebrated first-generation student day this year on November 8th, I think it was. And we gave them a free t-shirt that said, "I'm first." And just to see their faces light up when they got those t-shirts. And then we gave them cords for graduation. And I had a student come to me after graduation, and he was a first gen and his whole entire family was watching, and he came to me and he just cried, and he just hugged me, and he said, "Thank you, because I wouldn't have been at this ceremony if it wasn't for you."

HAGI: And that was just so powerful. And as we are kicking off this first generation programming, we're going to need alums, and we're going to need alums across the board of older alums, to younger alums and people of color and women. And we're going to need alums to help us with this. We just got named by NASPA as a first gen forward institution. And that means that we are going to be assigned a school that does a lot of first gen programming as our mentor. And so we're going to kick up our programming a whole lot more for first-generation students. That's very exciting, not only for us, but for those students that are first gen who are now getting their needs met and are being heard. That's huge for us. And I'm very excited about that. And then of course, another way is to donate because these things do cost money and we don't necessarily have it right now, but through donations, and one of the things I love, love, love about Tom Pynchon in Advancement is that he reaches out to me and he says, "Hagi, what are some things you need? And how can we help? How can we work with alums to get these donations, to do these things, wellness, wellness programming, to have this other counselor, to have this partnership with JED.?"

HAGI: Every little bit helps. And even if it's $5, that helps towards us being able to successfully do a lot of these programs. We had an alum who donated the money for us to be able to hire that counselor of color. That came from an alumni donation, where she said, "I'm giving this for mental health." Boom. We were able to hire that other counselor. And when COVID first started, we started offering 24 hour phone counseling for our students anywhere in the world that they could call a counselor and that counselor will help deescalate and then send that information along to our counselors so they can follow up. And Thelmo is funding that for us, and that is such a great commitment for our Thelmo to make to mental health and the mental wellbeing of our student population. And alums can do the same thing. It's wonderful for alums to ask, "Hey, where can I be of use? How can I volunteer?" And we can find ways for alums to help, but know that donating does good, and when you donate for these things, it does go to those.

BETH: I think that's a really important message. And I'm thankful that you bring that up because this is, with Thelmo also kicking in their own funds, this is a great example of how alumni current students are kind of working together to fund the needs of what the current students need or in what future students are going to need frankly too. Even when I was a student, I really felt like we were thinking about the next generation of St. Lawrence students and saying, "Yes, it would be great if this was the experience I had now, but I'm thinking like this would be better for generations to come." One of the things I was wondering is if you... Speaking of all this funding, one of the things that we really want to ask people as we wrap up our conversations is if you had $1 million to give to St. Lawrence, and you could put it towards anything, where would you invest it and why?

HAGI: I would invest a lot of it in student life areas. I'm not going to lie, because student life areas need that funding in order to be able to create new programs and meet the needs of the students, to constantly be changing and not fall behind and not be a student life division that is 10, 15 years behind the curve. I would invest a lot of that in those areas because people often forget that there are a lot of hours spent outside the classroom. And if we can invest in those hours in a way that's developmental and learning that we can then assess these things and assess what they're learning and constantly be changing, we would be number one liberal arts college in the world. And students would be breaking down the doors to get here. Often people forget that the student life experience is so very important. There is not a single student on this campus that student life does not touch in one way or another. And so Res Life, the CA should be having more money for programming. John and his staff to have more money for programming. [crosstalk]-

BETH: And that's the student activities, right?

HAGI: ... yes, student activities. They should be able to have more money for programming and they don't have it. Right now we're beholden to waiting on Thelmo because we have to go through Thelmo to get Thelmo to do something instead of us being able to do something. If you could think about events going on all the time and stuff happening all the time and students not running out of things to do and students saying, "Oh my gosh, there are so many activities here that I have to pick which things to do." And mental well-being is just so paid attention to, and they do so much programming on this, yeah, that would be great. And if CAs were doing programs and had funds and do all these things that reach the students directly, I would give a lot of that there.

AMELIA: Sure. Dream of dreams.

HAGI: Yes.

AMELIA: What kind of programming do you want to be able to provide?

HAGI: I want to be able to do a lot of fun programming, non-alcoholic even or have some zip lines on campus. Some-

BETH: Could you imagine getting to your class via zip line?

HAGI: ... Just a zip line.

AMELIA: Weee.

HAGI: Weee.

BETH: Weee.

HAGI: Oh my gosh.

BETH: From your window in Skyes all the way down to the noble center, just cutting through the Dean-Eaton courtyard.

HAGI: Yes.

AMELIA: Yeah, okay.

HAGI: Now imagine that, and you can just zip line all the way across. And then when you get off, you just go onto your class. Oh my gosh. That would be so much fun.

BETH: That'd be great.

HAGI: No, and it wouldn't have to be like something every day. It could just be something that we would have even every once in a while. And if we-

BETH: I imagine they would freeze in the winter, so probably not every day.

HAGI: ... [crosstalk] Not good in the winter. Your hands would be stuck.You'd be like, "I'm sorry, call my professor and tell him I can't come to class because I'm stuck." Nope-

BETH: [crosstalk] Facilities would need many ladders ready to go to help people get down [crosstalk].

HAGI: ... exactly. But you know, outdoor films. If we could do films on the quiet out there and students could sit out there and we could provide popcorn and nachos and drinks, and we could do that every month at least. And we could bring an ice cream truck on campus and bring different food trucks and have a food festival and do all these festival type things. And I got to see winter fast a little bit during COVID that Thelmo put on, and it was exciting and things like that, if we could do that more regularly, that would be so much fun. And then you combine that with educational things about how to deal with stress, stress management, time management, even mindfulness thinking, all of these pieces and we could integrate all of that together.

HAGI: And then co-curricular badging. And we're talking about doing our co-curricular certifications and students could be working towards these certifications and doing all these fun things and really making, learning meaningful things out of what they're doing in their spare time, through their involvement with clubs and organizations. They can say, "This is what I learned." And being able to talk about that job interview. That's what I envision for St. Lawrence. That's where I envision us being. And that's what I would love to see happening. I would love for people to say, "Oh my gosh, we have so many fun things that don't involve alcohol. We have so many fun things that I can do and that I can choose and that I can go to on a regular basis. And I'm learning so much more about how to deal with my own emotions and my own self and my own mind so that when I get out of here, I'm going to be ready for the world." To me, those are my ultimate goals for St. Lawrence and that's what I'm constantly working towards.

AMELIA: Wow. Well, I can't think of a better place to stop then. These are really exciting hopes that you have for the future of St. Lawrence and I'm so excited to see what you do next. I'm sure Beth is too.

BETH: And I'm sure the students are... Most of all, I think that one of the things that from just the little bit that I've been able to glean from them is that they enjoy, that they never know what Dean Bradley has up his sleeve.

HAGI: You never know.

BETH: But thank you so much Hagi for joining.

AMELIA: Yes, thank you.

HAGI: Thank you all, I loved this. This was awesome. I love being a Laurentian and I'm so glad that I got to speak with you all today and share my love for our students and for this place.

BETH: Thank you so much Hagi.

HAGI: All right. Bye-bye.

BETH: Bye-bye. 

[MUSIC INTERLUDE]

BETH: All right. And there you have it. Hagi Bradley.

AMELIA: So fun, so good. It's such a great way to start. I have to say though Beth, my biggest takeaway having come away from that is that next time I should definitely check that my mic is working before we start recording so that I can be present always throughout the interview.

BETH: Not just that. We also want to make sure that we have our guests with headphones in. So we apologize that the audio quality was a little subpar in some points. I know part of this journey is Laurentians learn, right? So we're going to learn how to become more efficient.

AMELIA: Lifelong learners.

BETH: Lifelong learners, more efficient podcasters as we go along when it comes to tech. But we hope everybody enjoyed that interview. I absolutely so appreciate what Hagi brings to the table. And I'm sure I know that the students really enjoy his presence on campus. What were some of the things that you enjoyed hearing his perspective on?

AMELIA: That's a great question. I think I really love how Hagi talked about throughout his experiences before St. Lawrence and while at St. Lawrence that I'm sure has come in so useful during this very stressful time is his priority of making sure that students feel heard and listened to and appreciated.

BETH: [crosstalk].

AMELIA: I think that that is such a special and very Laurentian way to go about things. And I think that he's been such a great person to have at the helm, guiding our student population through this very strange time, unprecedented, we could call it. So that's... Yeah, and he just has such a creative approach and I'm excited to see some of his new initiatives and where they go.

BETH: I totally agree. My biggest takeaway was very similar. I love the way that he empowers students to have a voice. And I think that given the past year and a half during the pandemic, through the different social inequities that we've seen across the country and in the world, I think having a leader like Hagi who empowers her students to have a voice who is growing into this amazing leader for our students to really look to, I think is really wonderful, not only for our students, but for the Laurentian community. And I'm hopeful that this is a new chapter at St. Lawrence. We have a lot of different leadership changes happening with a new president coming in and president Fox has just been amazing. And obviously there's going to be more changes. So to have a leader like Hagi who's been here for a couple of years and has gone through probably one of the biggest trials you could ever have as a new cabinet member, senior staff member, I think that we were pretty lucky at St. Lawrence to have him.

AMELIA: For sure. Well, I think this is a great start and we hope that you will all join us next month for the next edition of Scarlet & Brown Stories. Thanks everybody.

BETH: I'm very excited. See you next time.

[CREDIT MUSIC]

BETH: Scarlet & Brown stories is edited and produced by Amanda Brewer, Megan Fry Dozier, Dennis Morreale, Beth Dixon and Amelia Jantzi.

AMELIA: Our music was written by Christopher Watts, inspired by Eugene Wright, Class of 1949.

BETH: Subscribe to Scarlet & Brown Stories on Apple podcasts, Spotify, and wherever you listen to podcasts.

AMELIA: If you have a story you'd like to submit to us, you can email us at connect@stlawu.edu.